Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting LR Hunting - Why?

Very nice dude! You in Cody?

Jacobite:

Here is an idea of how the Sierra Matchking (LEFT NICELY MUSHROOMED BULLET) acts on impact with a North American moose at about 2300 fps.

Cacc

Sounds like a setup to me....But I'll bite. Personally a moderate to gusty wind and I'm out on an 800 yard shot.

Groups you see at 1000 are WAY different than at 800 or under. In fact there is a large difference for each 100 yards the further out you get.

What you see on groups that are small but a foot off are at least 1000 yards, have a certain short time limit in which to be fired and you just have to make do.

Reverse that to a game shot, you have all the time in the world and if it walks off, so be it. You can work and adapt it and get the first shot right or know that it has to be passed.

Sometimes we get mixed up with those that specifically seek out all long range shots. And thats fine with me. I happen to know where my limits currently are and abide by them.

As mentioned through this whole thread, not that I really care as I'm always 150% sure before I shoot, the true slobs are short range shooters and always will be by default. Until you force folks to qualify on a target before getting a license this will not change. And even if taht law would come(I'd totally endorse the heck out of it, even though the parameters would probably be such that most LR shooters could make it on their heads on the wrong hand, blind folded...and probably a fair amount would never pass it....) it still won't make it illegal to take a shot less than 100%. Thats up to each individual.

How one can predict that any shot is moer or less dangerous than another, up to a point, is beyond me. I've seen alert deer bound and run instantly taht would result in bad hits or misses from well inside 100, have seen non alert deer do it too. One can only do the very best they can, within their capabilities and self imposed limits. They have to live with the results of their actions(my only loss being a shot under 70 yards at what I thought was a wide open deer, only to expand a bullet on a vine I never saw and hit the deer with frags only, breaking a lower leg only.... ask me how-- wife and I trailed it for over 5 hours never getting a clear shot to finish it, very evident about the hit though- and even that one I dnot' think the deer ever died...) I know its tough to loose one. Hope it never happens again.

Personally I suspect my ethics of what it takes to shoot, are far above and beyond the majority of other hunters.

Regardless of if anyone thinks its hunting or shooting.

Jeff

Rost495. If you wanted to buy a long range varmint (coyote) gun what would you recommend? What caliber? Heavy barrel or noodle? We have an infestation of coyotes here in my area and not long ago a kid got his lunch stole while waiting for the bus, by a bold coyote. You seem to have a good selection of rifles. I have some good rifles but they don't have the accuracy required for long range shooting.I see on other threads that the 80 grain is popular for coyotes.

Hi Dave and POP,

Thanks for posting the pics. Hmmm...not a lot of linearity in the results, I would say. OK, paper media is not flesh, so is there corruption in the result? Possibly, but the degree of aberration would be too much for me to entertain, let alone illegal hereabouts. At the end of the day, it is all about kinetic energy; if V-squared is high enough, any material can be frangible - how else does an APFSDS tungsten dart kill tank crews?

Still, if it's OK with you guys, I'm happy to "slob" about at sub-300m. I'd never take a shot at running game, unless shooting battue, always check my target, backdrop, wind and sight-line before mounting the rifle, use top-quality optics to verify the target and thus far, have never lost one (about 700 deer to date, I think) - touch wood. Also, as Jeff stated, we have a professional training scheme in most European countries; I have both the German Jagdschein and British DSC2 qualifications. I, too, think it would be an excellent programme for the US and would help expand the credibilty gap between genuine conservationist hunters and the antis, in particular. Live and let live, says I. If I come out West, I would love to have a go with one of those LR rigs. However, if you want to walk my woods and fields, get ready to belly-crawl and work for it! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Have a great weekend and thanks for all your thoughts and contributions. Tomorrow is our last day for pheasants and duck, so both my black lab and I will be in the field - only the third time this week! I really should get some more trigger time...

Regards,

J

Rost495....No setup intended.
I give you credit for passing on that shot.
I wonder if you are in the minority or majority there.

Also, I understand that a lot changes from 800 to 1000....but I don't think that it brings those shots back onto a paper plate.

I've done real well at staying out of this but time to say something. Rost is probally in the minority. I believe that the majority of long range shots are taken by people that are not up to the task.

Don,
I doubt if most people who are supporting LR hunting would disagree with you.
The majority of LR hunting I have seen has been in Colorado on the plains antelope hunting or in the mountains elk/deer. The things that have disgusted me is the "hail mary" shooting, and it seems to be worse in groups (at least what I have witnessed). You may not have been talking about this kind of shooting but these guys just keep elevating/kentucky windage until they get close or if they are lucky get a hit somewhere. A hunter my partner and I visited with a man this past November who uses a semi-auto rifle with this very purpose in mind.
Get a hit anywhere then just keep pumping lead. He also considered himself a LR hunter <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
Earlier that day we witnessed a doe muley that was killed by a couple of guys (range 350-400 yards). All I can say that there was a lot of shots (more than 6). We had glassed and ranged some of the area earlier and were in the midst of making a stalk. We could have shot from where they were, but they were shooting from the road or just off of it.
I have never shot a big game animal beyond 700 yards myself, but some of those who have consistently do it, will intentionally use a spotter shot 25 yards or so to the right or left of the animal or even above it to confirm the dope. If correction is needed it is made and then one shot is made on the animal.
You may disagree with the style and you may not call it hunting, but can you give credit to these guys who are serious about it that they want that animal to be killed cleanly with a lethal shot on the first shot?
Also, not everyone who uses SMK's, say any and every SMK is suitable for game. I have used SMK's twice on deer to date with good results (1-shot kills) and one A-Max with the same results. Berger even considers some of their bullets suitable for hunting.
IMO there will be what has been called "slob hunters" who sling lead at both short and long ranges and everything in between.
Although I have not done it yet myself, I am not opposed to making a "spotting shot" to confirm my dope is correct. If the animal runs and I lose the opportunity-so be it. The guys I am familiar with want a lethal connection on the first shot, not just a hit somewhere.
There will always be people who will pull the trigger hoping to get lucky at all ranges.
I also believe it happens more often at shorter ranges, because many hunting areas (terrain) do not even allow for longer distances and many hunters who would be willing to take a snap shot at a deer know they don't even have a prayer at a deer at 500-700 yards. But since they think they have a chance a deer at closer ranges they will attempt it.
I think there is more people attempting LR hunting because of the technology, but that alone does not mean they have any business doing it.

378
Due to what I shoot and familiar with, a fast twist 22-250 AI that can drive something like a 70-90 grain projectile.
What that wont cover, and the wind does become an issue out further, then 6mm 06 or something in a 25 caliber.

I'm actually fortunate that I generally cannot have a shot at a yote past 300 where I'm at so my long barrled 223 upper on the AR gets almost all my work.

Thin barrels are as good as heavy, its all dependant on how many rounds you will shoot, how you travel and so on. For a multi round gun, a bit heavier. For coyotes you often don't have multi shots, and for a walking gun I'd just stick with a normal or light contour tube. Much different than a PD situation.

True long range in windy conditions I"d be really keen about thinking 257 wtby or 257 stw area. In a nice light gun(super light backpack type guns are tough to learn to shoot correctly but very accurate) that would double as a prairie goat gun and the like.

Maybe I"m in the minority like the others say, of course I think I"m in the majority but thats probably due to the company I keep. And I may purposely have blinders on not wanting to see the slobs. Though those barrage shooters.... heck I suspect, and may be wrong, that those types of shooters wouldn't even be lucky enough to wound and animal much less get close and tend to even discount those shooters...

BTW on the spot shooting, BTDT, lost out a few times but the few times I"ve had shots over 1000 I"ve also not been totally comfortable with the shot at all. Thats 2 times. Both would have been instant kills had I not shot the spotter. Both times the animal walked off and would walk and stop. Not the shot I was looking for....
As mentioned RE the paper issue, given enough time, those groups will be centered. ITs the fact that you cannot govern conditions or when the allotted time starts. So you have to shoot the paper even if you wouldn't shoot an animal. I"m much more lucky as my sport allows 1 minute per shot, sometimes more and from 10-22 shots for a match. I don't shoot slowly, but often will allow up to half the time to elapse to get to a favorable condition to me to be able to start center and finish center.

My longest shot, well it would have never been taken on the early days of the hunt due to the winds. Just got lucky on having ideal shooting conditions when it was demanded. Of course earlier days I had shots at 300 and under but on animals I did not want.

Jeff

Jeff

Thanks for the tips. I have dies for a 22-250 and rifle. It's an old bugger like me and not so accurate. I think the barrel is worn on it and the bolt is sloppy. I know I can't make long shots with it so I don't even try. A fella from out east traded to me for some money so he could get back home. I'll look around for a high end rifle in this caliber. The don't cost much to reload and can knock them down along way. Thanks.

378

Why don't you look at the option of having your existing action accurized and get a new high quality barrel put on by a really good gunsmith. If the action you have is a good action you can probably come out ahead with a better shooting gun than buying new.

BB has the best suggestion on the issue I've seen!! But I did recall you didn't like rebarreling, choosing to shoot with all factory stuff for some reason IIRC.
Jeff

xphunter,

That is just what I'm talking about. I am opposed to the idea of it but I understand some guy's can. I have been in this type discussion enough times that for me, it's just best to stay out. As I read back thru these posts, I find one guy I believe certainly can do this, two or three maybe's and a few that certainly like to support it and talk of it but are obviously not capabile! If we assume that the few I concider maybe's are truely good, then that leaves a few talking trash that are being associated with those that can, like it or not. One guy in particular is talking trash and none of the maybe's or the can do, have said one word.

Now I'm going to back out. I told the one guy I think can I'd stay out and here I've broken that promise.

Rost495 you forget where I live. Remember Beverly Hillbillies(Jed Clampett). Even if i wanted to rebarrel I wouldn't find anyone in Canada with the skills and tools required. I would have to send it to the USA and ever since 9-11 the door is pretty well shut. It would be cheaper for me to buy a new gun to dick around with that old gun. One of your country man had a good statement "putting candles in a pile of shiit don't make it a birthday cake". I like that line. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

378
Ain't that a shame? I'm curious how your palma shooters rebarrel. Gotta be some method without much hassle, one would think? As many tubes as they burn through anyway.

But would not surprise me either, if so thats a shame. Beautiful country, way too many taxes and gov rules. Your pistol rules aggravate me, you can no longer pass your guns on to the kids without a hassle etc...... Relative had a sweet 270 that I might have gotten years back.... no dice now...

I always assume and you know where that leaves ya..... I often take for granted that I pack a 45 on my hip every day without issue. Can own Class 3 guns. Don't have to keep my pistols locked up. Can kick open the door and shoot to my hearts content.

Jeff

Yeah there is a few places that do work on rifles but they are far and few between and very pricey. Most guys send their rifles to the USA to have work done on them or just order it already done. I know a few fellas that shoot tournaments and they have ordered their rifles ready to shoot just add bullets. I have built bullets for these guys because some reload but not many do anymore. Between playing golf and chasing rug rats and wine/dining wife they don't have much spare time. My youngest daughter is 30 years old so I have more time on my hands. As for gun regulations, well that's another thread. One is ongoing under Canada title in this forum. Have agreat day in your FREE country.

Actually wet newsmedia is about the best or at least one of the best tisuue simulators out there.

Either way this is my philosophy and we have been through this before.

Why on God's green earth would one want to use match bullets to accomplish a task that these bullets were not designed for, and against the manufacturer's recommendations? Is it possible that the people who use them for game know better than say ...Sierra huh?

With so many awesome bullets out there designed to kill why would one chance it?

OTOH, and I"m not advocating it, finding multiple uses for something is not a negative. Though I"m with you on match bullets. Do not have the guts to try it again, having seen some disimilar results a number of years back. Enough so that I'm afraid if they do start to really expand it'll be like a ballistic tip bullet and I stay as far away from those as I can.

Jeff

Its simple,match bullets often offer better consistancy in weight. Not to mention they slightly help defy gravity and wind. None of which has anything to do with big game performance. Which is fairly consistant,since long range shooting doesn't have anything to do with hunting big game.

Sledder
I agree. Using a rifle for any game harvest certainly isn't hunting. Its just shooting. The closer you get the more shooting it is.