|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1 |
That is because you are a moron. My friend who is an orthopedist surgeon, had a 300K insurance nut to crack and it's even more for OBGYNs. Trial Lawyers assoc are the # 1 contributors to democrats. Let that sink in
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,742 Likes: 20
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,742 Likes: 20 |
Sure, with pork bellies.
Short of lettin' cute lil wee bairns die screaming in the streets, a free medical market is a pipe dream.
There's also just the humanistic side of this. Free-market economic theory also guarantees that there will "poor people". The system can't work without the bottom rungs of the ladder in place. What if this glorious free market health care system finds its equilibrium price-point but it's out of reach for a large segment of society? How does THAT solve anything? We still gotta have people flipping burgers and pumping gas.
SINCE HATARI BROUGHT IT UP- as in, I'm not trolling here- consider for a moment the simplicity of a single-payer system. You know the cost to serve your "herd", you divide that into the size of your herd, and you come up with an unavoidable tax- say a sales tax on everything but food- to cover it, then you let the rest of your more or less free-market economy adjust to the new reality. You've now stripped out multiple layers of profit seeking from the system.
Further, while that might put a damper on cutting-edge medical "stuff".... most medicine ain't that. It's fairly straightforward stuff that doctors figured out a century ago.
It's just a thought but I agree with Hatari that it's at least worth considering given how FUBAR things are... and it's not like the AHCA fixes anything.
Back before the 1980s, anyone with a job could easily afford a medical insurance policy and to go to the doctor. What's changed? Government intervention into the market. As for people who couldn't afford even the low costs back then (a tiny percentage of people), there was charity to fill the gaps. People who die on the street do so mainly due to alcoholism and insanity, causing them not to seek charitable assistance.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 50,169 Likes: 1
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 50,169 Likes: 1 |
The first thing EVERYBODY has to acknowledge is that "pre-existing conditions", in this context , means WELFARE. Pure and simple. You can't buy insurance on your house after it burns down are on your car after you wreck it. I don't blame anybody for wanting somebody else to pay for their problems and taking care of those who cannot take care of themselves. It is the right thing to do, but disguising welfare as insurance is insidious.
The only thing worse than a liberal is a liberal that thinks they're a conservative.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,742 Likes: 20
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,742 Likes: 20 |
The first thing EVERYBODY has to acknowledge is that "pre-existing conditions", in this context , means WELFARE. Pure and simple. You can't buy insurance on your house after it burns down are on your car after you wreck it. I don't blame anybody for wanting somebody else to pay for their problems and taking care of those who cannot take care of themselves. It is the right thing to do, but disguising welfare as insurance is insidious. This.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 26,337
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 26,337 |
The first thing EVERYBODY has to acknowledge is that "pre-existing conditions", in this context , means WELFARE. Pure and simple. You can't buy insurance on your house after it burns down are on your car after you wreck it. I don't blame anybody for wanting somebody else to pay for their problems and taking care of those who cannot take care of themselves. It is the right thing to do, but disguising welfare as insurance is insidious. This. well yes. that's easy to understand, and makes perfectly good sense, even if one has only one eye & half sense. but, the problem remains, and that's what we're trying to iron out, right? that is a pre-existing condition is just as much a medical problem or issue as it ever was. it's a medical indication that a curative, preventative, or trtmnt is needed to be supplied by knowledgeable personnel. and there's a cost attached. ok, so it's not covered by insurance. how is it best covered?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,569 Likes: 8
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,569 Likes: 8 |
Tort reform is socialism.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312 |
Sure, with pork bellies.
Short of lettin' cute lil wee bairns die screaming in the streets, a free medical market is a pipe dream.
There's also just the humanistic side of this. Free-market economic theory also guarantees that there will "poor people". The system can't work without the bottom rungs of the ladder in place. What if this glorious free market health care system finds its equilibrium price-point but it's out of reach for a large segment of society? How does THAT solve anything? We still gotta have people flipping burgers and pumping gas.
SINCE HATARI BROUGHT IT UP- as in, I'm not trolling here- consider for a moment the simplicity of a single-payer system. You know the cost to serve your "herd", you divide that into the size of your herd, and you come up with an unavoidable tax- say a sales tax on everything but food- to cover it, then you let the rest of your more or less free-market economy adjust to the new reality. You've now stripped out multiple layers of profit seeking from the system.
Further, while that might put a damper on cutting-edge medical "stuff".... most medicine ain't that. It's fairly straightforward stuff that doctors figured out a century ago.
It's just a thought but I agree with Hatari that it's at least worth considering given how FUBAR things are... and it's not like the AHCA fixes anything.
Back before the 1980s, anyone with a job could easily afford a medical insurance policy and to go to the doctor. What's changed? Government intervention into the market. As for people who couldn't afford even the low costs back then (a tiny percentage of people), there was charity to fill the gaps. People who die on the street do so mainly due to alcoholism and insanity, causing them not to seek charitable assistance. I was there. I d say that is a very simplistic and self-serving take on it. What's changed is perhaps some government intervention (got specifics?) but it's also as simple as the Baby Boomers hitting their expensive years and then all the expensive hi-tech stuff hospitals are amortizing across all of us. In the 80's you went to the doctor for a sore knee and were told Ice and aspirin. Now, as with my buddy a few weeks ago, it's an MRI. Now I have no doubt that the MRI is far "better" health care in terms of understanding the damage to the knee and then treating it. But the COST... Another huge difference is that we've gone to [bleep] as a herd. There's obese kids waddling around the playgrounds of America in droves. Folks are getting diabetes in their 30's. Anyway, I'm not saying single-payer fixes that or anything else but the differences between now and the 80's go far beyond .gov intervention. But I'm certainly interested in any specifics you might have.
The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312 |
The first thing EVERYBODY has to acknowledge is that "pre-existing conditions", in this context , means WELFARE. Pure and simple. You can't buy insurance on your house after it burns down are on your car after you wreck it. I don't blame anybody for wanting somebody else to pay for their problems and taking care of those who cannot take care of themselves. It is the right thing to do, but disguising welfare as insurance is insidious. This. Ok... but are you two under some illusion that your "house ain't ever gonna burn" down so to speak? Time wounds all heels... or else perhaps you are insulated from this because you have not and/or will not need to change insurers? I mean, Pat, say you lost the insurance you likely still have through your union... now anything you've ever had treated could be a pre-existing condition and conceivably thus un-insurable. This makes you a welfare case? That seems a little harsh considering it's everyone's destiny physically. The difference is some folks, mostly public sector (cough Pat cough Jorge) are insulated from all of this. But that's a weird high-horse to get up on IMHO.
The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 95,717 Likes: 2
Campfire Oracle
|
|
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 95,717 Likes: 2 |
1. Govt requiring hospitals to treat all patients who come in the ER.
2. Govt instituting welfare. Zeros having kids to get a govt check.
3 Girls getting knocked up at 14-15 because they liked some hunk who was going to make millions as a pro athlete and knowing they wouldnt have to worry about working to provide for the baby.
4. Not catching illegal aliens and dropping them off in the desert to get back home if they could. This led to millions coming in and inundating the medical system citizens have to foot the costs for.
5. Stacking hospitals with pregnant illegal aliens and diabetics, etc.
Ecc 10:2
The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the left.
A Nation which leaves God behind is soon left behind.
"The Lord never asked anyone to be a tax collector, lowyer, or Redskins fan".
I Dindo Nuffin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 44,435 Likes: 8
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 44,435 Likes: 8 |
And what about the non-working (so-called) poor? That is, not counting their drug dealing money. Need pictures?  That's your problem. That's how socialism works. Nah. Not my problem. It's our problem. If it was up to me, there'd be no freebee programs. Let the family support the dregs. Funny how fast the lazy assed gold bricking stops then.
Slaves get what they need. Free men get what they want. Rehabilitation is way overrated. Orwell wasn't wrong. GOA member disappointed NRA member 24HCF SEARCH
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 12,856 Likes: 5
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 12,856 Likes: 5 |
The first thing EVERYBODY has to acknowledge is that "pre-existing conditions", in this context , means WELFARE. Pure and simple. You can't buy insurance on your house after it burns down are on your car after you wreck it. I don't blame anybody for wanting somebody else to pay for their problems and taking care of those who cannot take care of themselves. It is the right thing to do, but disguising welfare as insurance is insidious. No. No, not even close. There was a case, before O'care ever was a twinkle in it's daddy's eye, of a woman who was denied coverage for breast cancer due to an undisclosed pre-existing condition. What was the pre-existing condition? Chronic acne as a teenager, and she failed to disclose it on her enrollment forms. Coverage of a pre-existing condition has always been subject to continuous coverage. If you came down with something chronic requiring long term doctoring, as long as you continued to pay your premiums, you could not be booted. In SOME states, insurance companies could not refuse you, or rate you higher, as long as you had uninterrupted coverage. The huge (economic) problem with that patchwork system is that you can't move between states (can't find insurance), and in some places, you can't change jobs. Since employers knew darn well who was expensive to insure and who wasn't, guess who got the crap assignments and no raises, ever? As long as someone pays to be covered starting in adulthood, if that person develops a chronic condition while covered, you can't get any further from welfare. It is EXACTLY why insurance exists: to cover things you cannot foresee, and you cannot afford.
Sic Semper Tyrannis
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312 |
The first thing EVERYBODY has to acknowledge is that "pre-existing conditions", in this context , means WELFARE. Pure and simple. You can't buy insurance on your house after it burns down are on your car after you wreck it. I don't blame anybody for wanting somebody else to pay for their problems and taking care of those who cannot take care of themselves. It is the right thing to do, but disguising welfare as insurance is insidious. No. No, not even close. There was a case, before O'care ever was a twinkle in it's daddy's eye, of a woman who was denied coverage for breast cancer due to an undisclosed pre-existing condition. What was the pre-existing condition? Chronic acne as a teenager, and she failed to disclose it on her enrollment forms. Coverage of a pre-existing condition has always been subject to continuous coverage. If you came down with something chronic requiring long term doctoring, as long as you continued to pay your premiums, you could not be booted. In SOME states, insurance companies could not refuse you, or rate you higher, as long as you had uninterrupted coverage. The huge (economic) problem with that patchwork system is that you can't move between states (can't find insurance), and in some places, you can't change jobs. Since employers knew darn well who was expensive to insure and who wasn't, guess who got the crap assignments and no raises, ever? As long as someone pays to be covered starting in adulthood, if that person develops a chronic condition while covered, you can't get any further from welfare. It is EXACTLY why insurance exists: to cover things you cannot foresee, and you cannot afford. This.
The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 6,864
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 6,864 |
The first thing EVERYBODY has to acknowledge is that "pre-existing conditions", in this context , means WELFARE. Pure and simple. You can't buy insurance on your house after it burns down are on your car after you wreck it. I don't blame anybody for wanting somebody else to pay for their problems and taking care of those who cannot take care of themselves. It is the right thing to do, but disguising welfare as insurance is insidious. No. No, not even close. There was a case, before O'care ever was a twinkle in it's daddy's eye, of a woman who was denied coverage for breast cancer due to an undisclosed pre-existing condition. What was the pre-existing condition? Chronic acne as a teenager, and she failed to disclose it on her enrollment forms. Coverage of a pre-existing condition has always been subject to continuous coverage. If you came down with something chronic requiring long term doctoring, as long as you continued to pay your premiums, you could not be booted. In SOME states, insurance companies could not refuse you, or rate you higher, as long as you had uninterrupted coverage. The huge (economic) problem with that patchwork system is that you can't move between states (can't find insurance), and in some places, you can't change jobs. Since employers knew darn well who was expensive to insure and who wasn't, guess who got the crap assignments and no raises, ever? As long as someone pays to be covered starting in adulthood, if that person develops a chronic condition while covered, you can't get any further from welfare. It is EXACTLY why insurance exists: to cover things you cannot foresee, and you cannot afford. This. So if I cause 6 car accidents and my car insurance drops me because I can't afford their coverage, another insurer should cover me at the rate I had before I caused 6 accidents? Nope.
It's about like this:
"Do you puff peters?"
"Hell no!"
"NAZI!!!"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312 |
Bigfish, you're a child. STFU and let the adults talk.
The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312 |
From Wiki...
"Most insurance companies use one of two definitions to identify such conditions. Under the "objective standard" definition, a pre-existing condition is any condition for which the patient has already received medical advice or treatment prior to enrollment in a new medical insurance plan. Under the broader, "prudent person" definition, a pre-existing condition is anything for which symptoms were present and a prudent person would have sought treatment."
Jorge, that ain't 4% of us. But if you've got proof to the contrary, show us!
The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,990
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,990 |
That is because you are a moron. My friend who is an orthopedist surgeon, had a 300K insurance nut to crack and it's even more for OBGYNs. Trial Lawyers assoc are the # 1 contributors to democrats. Let that sink in Thank you for posting. You are so right on. Additionally, if anyone really thinks medical treatment is straight forward, they are so wrong. The insurance industry has inserted itself so far into a physician's practice, that even if a Dr thinks surgical intervention is THE ONLY practical treatment intervention, many insurers will deny it, until shown that scores of physical therapy and steroids done first, have not resolved the problem. The patient suffers much pain, hence opioids needed to to manage severity for months on end, and patient out of pocket costs for a half dozen therapy sessions and steroids, etc repeated MRI's,which barely make it to their deductible cap. Funny how the insurance industry can calculate how much they can stall a needed surgery with patient costs right up to the deductible cap. I'm in healthcare, and have sadly watched this happen over and over. And, yes, my RN malpractice insurance has gone up over the past 8 years, despite never ever being accused of any malpractice. Tort reform is needed.
Last edited by Wyogal; 05/08/17.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1 |
[The difference is some folks, mostly public sector (cough Pat cough Jorge) are insulated from all of this. But that's a weird high-horse to get up on IMHO.
I see your disdain for the Armed Forces comes through yet AGAIN. First it's irrelevant. Second if I would have a "pre-existing condition" I could in all likelihood never entered the military, much less in a flight status. And lastly, the government came to ME and offered up a pension and medical care for doing what I did. You're still a douchebag.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 12,856 Likes: 5
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 12,856 Likes: 5 |
Jorge, there's no shame in being wrong, but you are starting to embarrass yourself.
High blood pressure is a pre-existing condition
Irritable bowel syndrome. Constipation. Dry eyes. Gout. Diabetes, Hepatitis, seizures, stroke, heart murmurs /a-rythmia. Dizzy spells, fainting, gingivitis, bunions, ingrown toe nails.
LIFE is a pre-existing condition.
Insurance companies booting people who need more care is the EXACT SAME MORAL TURPITUDE as free loaders refusing to pay for insurance and then expecting to get covered.
Sic Semper Tyrannis
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1 |
Long narrative but here is one source I am SURE you will scoff at: "But when we’re talking health, preexisting conditions represent maybe 4% of the population that we’re talking about. So any health care, I don’t care if it’s Obamacare, Trumpcare, Ryan, whatever, it’s being held up basically here on the preexisting condition side for 4% statistically of the population." More: "Those people are 4% statistically here of the population. So we’re now tying ourselves in knots for a nationwide health care run — once again — by a bunch of wizards that know nothing about it. We’re trying to devise a health care system that accommodates 4% of the population first and that still provides insurance for everybody else. I’m sorry, it isn’t gonna work, because once you include people with preexisting conditions in an insurance program, you no longer have insurance." pre-existinting
Last edited by jorgeI; 05/08/17.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1 |
Jorge, there's no shame in being wrong, but you are starting to embarrass yourself.
High blood pressure is a pre-existing condition
Irritable bowel syndrome. Constipation. Dry eyes. Gout. Diabetes, Hepatitis, seizures, stroke, heart murmurs /a-rythmia. Dizzy spells, fainting, gingivitis, bunions, ingrown toe nails.
LIFE is a pre-existing condition.
Insurance companies booting people who need more care is the EXACT SAME MORAL TURPITUDE as free loaders refusing to pay for insurance and then expecting to get covered.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
|
|
|
|
|
455 members (160user, 17CalFan, 1Longbow, 12344mag, 10gaugeman, 10ring1, 42 invisible),
2,123
guests, and
1,146
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,192,377
Posts18,488,460
Members73,970
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
