Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns +P+ in the Browning Hi-Power?

Any one use it? Too much you think?

Probably won't kill it but I would say it is too much, especially since some warn of using +p.

Interesting question, considering that the High Power was common in European military use, and also common in European military use is the hot loaded 9mm, meant for submachineguns. I think that stuff is about as hot as +P+, yet that's what Europeans typically used for both their High Powers and their subguns. I wonder what Kevin will add to this discussion.

When I owned a MP-5 and an UZI back in 1982-84 I shot lots of Czech manuf. 9mm that was imported by Interarms and in the top of each case there was a note stating in large bold print "Submachine Gun Use Only".
My younger brother shot a fair amount (maybe 2500 rounds +/-) of this "sub gun ammo" through his used Belgian mfg. BHP and he had the gun loosen up (it shot larger groups afterwards and the slide/frame fit wasn't as tight). He did replace the springs with a greater frequency. If I can recall, the gunsmith said he shouldn't use any more of that hot Czech stuff. He later traded it towards a SIG P220 in 9mm and didn't shoot the sub gun ammo through the new SIG.

Not a scientific study I know, just an example of one.

YMMV

StarchedCover

Since there is no SAAMI pressure standard for +P+ I wouldn't use it in anything. As for the Hi-Power, the 4.7" barrel offers enough of an advantage I would be fine with any reasonable defense load.

A cop friend of mine, (who was carrying a 6906 Smith at the time), shot some LE-only issue ammo through a Belgian-built HP, and it loosened up, too, so much that he sent it back to Browning, who would not warrant it since he used the +P+ equivalent ammo in it. Mind you, this was the same ammo he used in the Smith, and regularly qualified with it in the aluminum-framed gun.

He said that Browning would not recommend anything beyond the normal US made ammo, and wouldn't warrant +p in it, either.

I've also read someplace, that the reason the Brits went to Glocks was because they kept wearing out Hi-Powers with their hot ammo. I cannot recall wear I read it, but it wasn't on the Internet, so it might not be true..........d:^(

This is all good info. I did not know about the no SAAMI standard on +P+ 9mm.

My son wants to carry a "high capacity" gun for when he goes downtown. Like me he cannot stand plastic guns with no class. Ha!

He always carries some kind of .45 ACP, but wanted to have greater capacity in the city. He is not a bad shot, but could be better, so I agreed.

Lot's of practice with standard 9mm, then using +P at most when carrying I guess.

I have not looked at the availability of 9mm ammo in a long time since I am not keen on the Euro Pellet myself. But there has been a big improvement in the 9mm factory ammo in the last few years.

Again, good contributions of knowledge here. More is welcome.

I have the mindset there are no magic handgun bullets or cartridges. Several years ago a local cop shot a guy close range with a 357 mag using either 125gr HPs or Win 145gr Silver Tips 5 times to stop him as the perp advanced with a pipe in his hand. Good hits by the cop too. If you're not hitting the noggin (brain) or neck/spine they may not stop very quick. YMMV

No amount of +'s or P's will turn it into a rifle.

A trench coat with a sub machine gun underneath draws attention.

My particular Hi-Power is a Belgium 1970 T prefix model. Have not researched it in years. I have been reading up (on the internet) in the last few days more about the ruggedness of the older ones. I have read from more than one source to change out the stock 17# recoil spring to an 18 1/2# spring. Not much difference which is good. Also, my year uses a mainspring (hammer spring) of 26#. The Mark III's now a days uses a 32# hammer spring.

You in the know. what do you think?

In 1956 the French, Brits, and Israeli's invaded Egypt during the Suez Crisis. While there, the SAS kept coming across 9mm ammo that was REALLY hot, and their Hi Power's typically wouldn't set it off because the primers were too hard. It was SMG ammo that the Egyptians made for their Port Said version of the Swedish K. The SAS absolutely LOVED the stuff because it greatly increased the barrier penetration of 9mm in their Sterling SMG's, but they really wanted it to work in their Hi Powers. After that is when FN changed to the super stiff 32lb mainspring on the HP which then set off pretty much anything you stuffed into a HP. So the SAS was generally pretty happy...until their Hi Powers started falling apart.

The two biggest issues were broken slides (right where every other slide in the world breaks, about 1/32" forward of the breech face). And the other was set-back locking cams in the frame. The cam surface that cams the barrel up and down on a Hi Power is a separate piece on a HP; it's not built into the frame. With standard pressure rounds, this thing will just last forever. But with really high pressure rounds (far in excess of what was available when the HP was designed), because the slide is so light, it and the barrel will come back with such velocity that it will batter that cam block in the frame and eventually oval out the hole that the cam block sits in; ruining the frame.

Eventually the Brits started making their own copy of the Egyptian ammo, and that morphed into what we know as 9mm NATO today. But they kept their Hi Powers even though from the 1960's on to the 2000's the Brits had tested several other pistols; still no change was made. That's because when it came to reliability, nothing would beat the Hi Power, and they weren't willing to compromise on reliability. What's more, the Brits were just plain in love with the HP and to some degree they had to wait until some of the older guard retired before they could make a change. So for decades they just shot the pistols until they fell apart, bought new parts, and did it all over again; and they were okay with that. Finally they changed to the Glock.

Mk III and later, when FN changed to the investment cast frames, this is far less of an issue. The investment cast frames came at the time of the .40 S&W so they got a metalurgical upgrade for the sharper impulse. Now days you don't have to worry about the frame much in a Mk III or Mk IIIS pistol...but the slide is still a bit on the petite side, so that's still a little bit of a concern.

It's interesting to note that FEG actually came up with a much superior solution IMO. They changed the locking system to that of a S&W 59 series, with twin cam slots milled into the frame...problem solved in a very eloquent way.

Understand that the ONLY thing +P and +P+ gets you is better barrier penetration; really nothing else. It doesn't make a larger wound, it doesn't "stop" better unless you believe those nonsensical one shot stop charts. So standard pressure 9mm should be quite adequate. If you absolutely have to shoot NATO pressure ammunition, make sure it's in a Mk III or later pistol. As for +P+, there is no such thing according to CIP and SAAMI...so I would personally avoid that because you don't know what you're really getting.

ETA - Recently some aluminum frame HP's have come into the country. NATO pressure ammunition should NEVER be fired in those pistols. You could have lug setback as early as one magazine of ammunition...bad JU-JU!!

And to quote Forrest Gump..."That's all I have to say about that"

GunGeek-

That is basically what I have been thinking. Buy bulk 115gr. standard for my boy to practice with. Maybe load the +P for him to get used to it and then carry it. Or not.

I handload for everything else but the 9mm. I used to. I hate the tapered case. To add to that, it is like pulling teeth to get some of these young folks to save the brass. He does not reload. I am glad he doesn't. He has ADHD very bad. He would probably blow himself and others up. My other son AND my daughter handload.



What are your thoughts on the recoil spring? How about the return velocity of the slide?

I am also replacing the magazine springs with Wolf +5%

Gibby, I'm guessing you learned to hate the tapered case from using older steel sizing dies, and having to lube?

Try modern carbide dies for the 9mm; they size/load just like any straight wall case, and you wouldn't realize the case was tapered if you didn't already know or look closely. Functionally they are the same as straight wall these days.

We'll have to disagree about that then. The wound stuff is bunk unless you're only talking about FMJ, in my experience. Pushing the same expanding bullet faster does do more damage. Higher velocity also gets you flatter trajectory and longer effective range, something the typical "gunfights are at 7 yards" crowd may have trouble wrapping their heads around.

Bill Lauthridge of Cylinder & Slide strongly recommends against using +P ammo in a HiPower

I have both steel and carbide. I am just really making excuses. My Rockchucker and T7 are busy with my stuff. Maybe in the winter time.
Then maybe the caliber will grow on me.


Again.

That says a lot.

The pistol is as optimized as it's going to get. Contrary to what many throw around, recoil spring plays an extremely small role in the locking/unlocking/recoil cycle of a semi-auto pistol. Most semi-auto locked breech pistols can be safely fired with no recoil spring at all, demonstrating that the recoil spring plays next to no role in the delay. Recoil spring weight is determined by what is needed for reliable function. Dwell time at mid-stroke, and the spring pressure for proper feeding. Now that said, there is a role...It can play a role in long term wear by tuning the spring with case ejection distance. The case should fly 6-8 feet from the gun. Any more and it's just unnecessary abuse on the pistol, any less and you're on the edge of feed problems.

The magazine spring at +5 generally shouldn't cause any issues at all. On rare occasions it can cause some feed issues with a very full magazine, but that's pretty rare.

If you plan on using +P, then just use the standard recoil spring, and standard mainspring (32lbs) and you're about as good as it's going to get. You could use a shock buffer for target practice at the range, but I'm not a fan of such things for defense/carry. So just use the gun (I'm assuming we're talking Mk III or Mk IIIS) as it is. Feel free to change the trigger spring to a lighter spring, and remove the magazine safety if you so desire. Do NOT use any reduced power sear spring, or tweak on the sear spring as part of a trigger job; that's a big mistake on a Hi Power.

Personally whether it's Hi Power or any other pistol, I typically don't carry +P/NATO pressure. If you really feel you need for a little greater barrier penetration, standard pressure 147 JHP will get you all the penetration you need. LE uses the 124+P because it's the lowest recoiling load that will pass all of the FBI's criteria; specifically the 12" of penetration after going through a car's windshield...that's the only test standard pressure 124 JHP's don't always pass (but sometimes does...it's right on the ragged edge...+P put it over the edge for every shot). I do have some +P's on hand because a few boxes were given to me, so I occasionally carry them in one of my 9mm's. But my Hi Power is a lightweight HP so I carry standard pressure 124 JHP in my LWHP and I don't worry one bit...shot placement is going to be the deciding factor, not whether or not I'm carrying +P.

In soft tissue higher velocity in a JHP will get you less penetration. So when it's all measured out, the actual volume of tissue destroyed is right about the same. Slightly larger (and I'm talking SLIGHTLY) bullet expansion but less penetration. Standard pressure will expand a couple thou less in diameter but penetrate a little deeper in soft tissue. So it really doesn't make any meaningful difference IN SOFT TISSUE. The only meaningful difference is in barrier penetration.