Any one use it? Too much you think?

Probably won't kill it but I would say it is too much, especially since some warn of using +p.

Interesting question, considering that the High Power was common in European military use, and also common in European military use is the hot loaded 9mm, meant for submachineguns. I think that stuff is about as hot as +P+, yet that's what Europeans typically used for both their High Powers and their subguns. I wonder what Kevin will add to this discussion.

When I owned a MP-5 and an UZI back in 1982-84 I shot lots of Czech manuf. 9mm that was imported by Interarms and in the top of each case there was a note stating in large bold print "Submachine Gun Use Only".
My younger brother shot a fair amount (maybe 2500 rounds +/-) of this "sub gun ammo" through his used Belgian mfg. BHP and he had the gun loosen up (it shot larger groups afterwards and the slide/frame fit wasn't as tight). He did replace the springs with a greater frequency. If I can recall, the gunsmith said he shouldn't use any more of that hot Czech stuff. He later traded it towards a SIG P220 in 9mm and didn't shoot the sub gun ammo through the new SIG.

Not a scientific study I know, just an example of one.

YMMV

StarchedCover

Since there is no SAAMI pressure standard for +P+ I wouldn't use it in anything. As for the Hi-Power, the 4.7" barrel offers enough of an advantage I would be fine with any reasonable defense load.

A cop friend of mine, (who was carrying a 6906 Smith at the time), shot some LE-only issue ammo through a Belgian-built HP, and it loosened up, too, so much that he sent it back to Browning, who would not warrant it since he used the +P+ equivalent ammo in it. Mind you, this was the same ammo he used in the Smith, and regularly qualified with it in the aluminum-framed gun.

He said that Browning would not recommend anything beyond the normal US made ammo, and wouldn't warrant +p in it, either.

I've also read someplace, that the reason the Brits went to Glocks was because they kept wearing out Hi-Powers with their hot ammo. I cannot recall wear I read it, but it wasn't on the Internet, so it might not be true..........d:^(

This is all good info. I did not know about the no SAAMI standard on +P+ 9mm.

My son wants to carry a "high capacity" gun for when he goes downtown. Like me he cannot stand plastic guns with no class. Ha!

He always carries some kind of .45 ACP, but wanted to have greater capacity in the city. He is not a bad shot, but could be better, so I agreed.

Lot's of practice with standard 9mm, then using +P at most when carrying I guess.

I have not looked at the availability of 9mm ammo in a long time since I am not keen on the Euro Pellet myself. But there has been a big improvement in the 9mm factory ammo in the last few years.

Again, good contributions of knowledge here. More is welcome.

I have the mindset there are no magic handgun bullets or cartridges. Several years ago a local cop shot a guy close range with a 357 mag using either 125gr HPs or Win 145gr Silver Tips 5 times to stop him as the perp advanced with a pipe in his hand. Good hits by the cop too. If you're not hitting the noggin (brain) or neck/spine they may not stop very quick. YMMV

No amount of +'s or P's will turn it into a rifle.

A trench coat with a sub machine gun underneath draws attention.

My particular Hi-Power is a Belgium 1970 T prefix model. Have not researched it in years. I have been reading up (on the internet) in the last few days more about the ruggedness of the older ones. I have read from more than one source to change out the stock 17# recoil spring to an 18 1/2# spring. Not much difference which is good. Also, my year uses a mainspring (hammer spring) of 26#. The Mark III's now a days uses a 32# hammer spring.

You in the know. what do you think?

In 1956 the French, Brits, and Israeli's invaded Egypt during the Suez Crisis. While there, the SAS kept coming across 9mm ammo that was REALLY hot, and their Hi Power's typically wouldn't set it off because the primers were too hard. It was SMG ammo that the Egyptians made for their Port Said version of the Swedish K. The SAS absolutely LOVED the stuff because it greatly increased the barrier penetration of 9mm in their Sterling SMG's, but they really wanted it to work in their Hi Powers. After that is when FN changed to the super stiff 32lb mainspring on the HP which then set off pretty much anything you stuffed into a HP. So the SAS was generally pretty happy...until their Hi Powers started falling apart.

The two biggest issues were broken slides (right where every other slide in the world breaks, about 1/32" forward of the breech face). And the other was set-back locking cams in the frame. The cam surface that cams the barrel up and down on a Hi Power is a separate piece on a HP; it's not built into the frame. With standard pressure rounds, this thing will just last forever. But with really high pressure rounds (far in excess of what was available when the HP was designed), because the slide is so light, it and the barrel will come back with such velocity that it will batter that cam block in the frame and eventually oval out the hole that the cam block sits in; ruining the frame.

Eventually the Brits started making their own copy of the Egyptian ammo, and that morphed into what we know as 9mm NATO today. But they kept their Hi Powers even though from the 1960's on to the 2000's the Brits had tested several other pistols; still no change was made. That's because when it came to reliability, nothing would beat the Hi Power, and they weren't willing to compromise on reliability. What's more, the Brits were just plain in love with the HP and to some degree they had to wait until some of the older guard retired before they could make a change. So for decades they just shot the pistols until they fell apart, bought new parts, and did it all over again; and they were okay with that. Finally they changed to the Glock.

Mk III and later, when FN changed to the investment cast frames, this is far less of an issue. The investment cast frames came at the time of the .40 S&W so they got a metalurgical upgrade for the sharper impulse. Now days you don't have to worry about the frame much in a Mk III or Mk IIIS pistol...but the slide is still a bit on the petite side, so that's still a little bit of a concern.

It's interesting to note that FEG actually came up with a much superior solution IMO. They changed the locking system to that of a S&W 59 series, with twin cam slots milled into the frame...problem solved in a very eloquent way.

Understand that the ONLY thing +P and +P+ gets you is better barrier penetration; really nothing else. It doesn't make a larger wound, it doesn't "stop" better unless you believe those nonsensical one shot stop charts. So standard pressure 9mm should be quite adequate. If you absolutely have to shoot NATO pressure ammunition, make sure it's in a Mk III or later pistol. As for +P+, there is no such thing according to CIP and SAAMI...so I would personally avoid that because you don't know what you're really getting.

ETA - Recently some aluminum frame HP's have come into the country. NATO pressure ammunition should NEVER be fired in those pistols. You could have lug setback as early as one magazine of ammunition...bad JU-JU!!

And to quote Forrest Gump..."That's all I have to say about that"

GunGeek-

That is basically what I have been thinking. Buy bulk 115gr. standard for my boy to practice with. Maybe load the +P for him to get used to it and then carry it. Or not.

I handload for everything else but the 9mm. I used to. I hate the tapered case. To add to that, it is like pulling teeth to get some of these young folks to save the brass. He does not reload. I am glad he doesn't. He has ADHD very bad. He would probably blow himself and others up. My other son AND my daughter handload.



What are your thoughts on the recoil spring? How about the return velocity of the slide?

I am also replacing the magazine springs with Wolf +5%

Gibby, I'm guessing you learned to hate the tapered case from using older steel sizing dies, and having to lube?

Try modern carbide dies for the 9mm; they size/load just like any straight wall case, and you wouldn't realize the case was tapered if you didn't already know or look closely. Functionally they are the same as straight wall these days.

We'll have to disagree about that then. The wound stuff is bunk unless you're only talking about FMJ, in my experience. Pushing the same expanding bullet faster does do more damage. Higher velocity also gets you flatter trajectory and longer effective range, something the typical "gunfights are at 7 yards" crowd may have trouble wrapping their heads around.

Bill Lauthridge of Cylinder & Slide strongly recommends against using +P ammo in a HiPower

I have both steel and carbide. I am just really making excuses. My Rockchucker and T7 are busy with my stuff. Maybe in the winter time.
Then maybe the caliber will grow on me.


Again.

That says a lot.

The pistol is as optimized as it's going to get. Contrary to what many throw around, recoil spring plays an extremely small role in the locking/unlocking/recoil cycle of a semi-auto pistol. Most semi-auto locked breech pistols can be safely fired with no recoil spring at all, demonstrating that the recoil spring plays next to no role in the delay. Recoil spring weight is determined by what is needed for reliable function. Dwell time at mid-stroke, and the spring pressure for proper feeding. Now that said, there is a role...It can play a role in long term wear by tuning the spring with case ejection distance. The case should fly 6-8 feet from the gun. Any more and it's just unnecessary abuse on the pistol, any less and you're on the edge of feed problems.

The magazine spring at +5 generally shouldn't cause any issues at all. On rare occasions it can cause some feed issues with a very full magazine, but that's pretty rare.

If you plan on using +P, then just use the standard recoil spring, and standard mainspring (32lbs) and you're about as good as it's going to get. You could use a shock buffer for target practice at the range, but I'm not a fan of such things for defense/carry. So just use the gun (I'm assuming we're talking Mk III or Mk IIIS) as it is. Feel free to change the trigger spring to a lighter spring, and remove the magazine safety if you so desire. Do NOT use any reduced power sear spring, or tweak on the sear spring as part of a trigger job; that's a big mistake on a Hi Power.

Personally whether it's Hi Power or any other pistol, I typically don't carry +P/NATO pressure. If you really feel you need for a little greater barrier penetration, standard pressure 147 JHP will get you all the penetration you need. LE uses the 124+P because it's the lowest recoiling load that will pass all of the FBI's criteria; specifically the 12" of penetration after going through a car's windshield...that's the only test standard pressure 124 JHP's don't always pass (but sometimes does...it's right on the ragged edge...+P put it over the edge for every shot). I do have some +P's on hand because a few boxes were given to me, so I occasionally carry them in one of my 9mm's. But my Hi Power is a lightweight HP so I carry standard pressure 124 JHP in my LWHP and I don't worry one bit...shot placement is going to be the deciding factor, not whether or not I'm carrying +P.

In soft tissue higher velocity in a JHP will get you less penetration. So when it's all measured out, the actual volume of tissue destroyed is right about the same. Slightly larger (and I'm talking SLIGHTLY) bullet expansion but less penetration. Standard pressure will expand a couple thou less in diameter but penetrate a little deeper in soft tissue. So it really doesn't make any meaningful difference IN SOFT TISSUE. The only meaningful difference is in barrier penetration.

GG - what is your carry load? 124...? Not a fan of the say 147 HST?

If I got asked as often as he does, I'd say the same thing...it's way easier than going through the whole long story...and I personally don't think +P brings enough to the table to lose any sleep over...it will NEVER be the deciding factor.

I think right now I have Hornady TAP, but honestly I just don't sweat this load vs. that load. If you stick with the major players, they have it well figured out these days, and the difference between say Hornady TAP vs. Fed Hydra-Shok is negligible, and not a detail worth sweating at all. What is worth sweating is, how the round functions, and whether it shoots to point of aim.

I do have some Hornady 147's in one of my 9mm's and I think another 9mm I have has some Black Hills 147's...IIRC the Black Hills load uses the Hornady XTP, so pretty much the same thing.

That's some good info, GunGeek

My HP is not a Mark III. It comes with a 26# Hammer spring. The Mark III's come from the factory with the 32# spring. If it is anything like the 1911, it would help a little on lengthening the unlock time. Plus, with a Wolf recoil 18 1/2# kit you get a heavier firing pin spring. That is a plus. My older magazines probably could use a spring replacement. +5% should not hurt in my opinion. Like you said. Probably would help if I ever use a full mag of 147's. I have fooled around a lot with the 1911's over the years. I have found that it is very important to keep the gun " in balance" with spring choices. As with any auto.

GG-
I appreciate the attention and info you have posted here.

PS: You mentioned feed reliability. With everything considered, I am inclined to just go with the Federal HST 124gr. standard. The bullet profile has been tested extensively for reliability. They work very well in the older .380's and 9mm's that will not digest some of the other modern hollow points. Not that the Hi-Power is that finical. The HST passes all the FBI tests. They are on the shelf everywhere around here.

You said it. I would tend to stick with the stock weight springs, including the lighter recoil spring, and change up as necessary to obtain the ejection pattern I want. The last spring I would change to get there would be the recoil spring. As you know, heavy springs batter the pistol returning to battery and usually knock the sights low. It's generally been shown that heavier recoil springs don't slow down significantly anyhow - they mostly speed up the return.

in the 80's a gunsmith in Colorado, Don Fisher, started converting hi powers to major power factor, and used one himself to dominate IPSC competition by simply cutting reloading times. Barstow made barrels for both the Hi power and the SW series of 59-69 series of guns with faster rate twists so that 160 cast bullets could be stabilized and a power factor 175 could make the guns major. The SW didn't work out as the debris/rail cuts didn't give enough meat to handle the pressure but the Hi powers were pretty effective. All the guns were throated with reamers to allow for max. magazine length. which is basically the only separating difference between 38 super 9x23 and 9mm, or more "brass on the bullet".

CZ and Tangfolios were close to follow and the nature of the game fell to the gamers. Hi powers fell out of demand simply because they use a lever system from the trigger to the hammer as the 1911 types don't. The ones that did see use had round counts in the 100,000s of thousands at major pressures. These guys worry more about wearing out Dillons than the guns they use. These early guns gave rise to the current use of STI and SVIs which dominate the major 9 category.

I have a major 9 in 1911 in early Colt 70, Barsto with no ramp from that era with well over 100,000 rounds through it and while the compensator was literally shot off continues to impress.

As mentioned beware of using too heavy of recoil springs as they give the gun a "pogo stick" recoil perception. Surface area of the locking lugs, hammer spring grip have more effect. Also as mentioned the additional advantages are dubious.
I would do it just to experiment--- but as also mentioned above a couple of 1000 rds of practice ammo run through the gun would be a better path.

If you have any questions on major 9mm and Hi powers and loads check out Brianenos.com

If your interested in higher velocities check out some new loads by Civil Defense, solid copper, 66 gr. at 2000 fps

Faster twist? I've gone slower in a Hi-Power, from 1:10 to 1:16, to optimize for cast bullets in more conventional weights - 125 grain mostly. Do you recall the twist for 160's?

slower twist rates are usually used to reduce leading. a 1-10 would stabilize 160s easily. shooting 125 under a 1000fps is no gun fun.

If i was going the Hi power path I would get a Nighthawk Custom and specify the +P aspect. you might contact them also for the current state of the art on that gun

if you didn't know.most of Nighthawk crew are old Wilson Staff. Wilson used to convert Hi powers in the early 2000

Went on the Nighthawk website. They commented that the H-Power was the best 9mm double stack platform out there.

$3200.00 ?

If I recall, I spent around $400.00 new for mine. Which was a lot back then. It is a true Belgium. Never went to Portugal to be fitted and assembled. That is why I want to take care of it.

Now that I am revisiting using it, I might have to get some fancy grips for it. I am sure I or my son will be going to some fancy barbecues this summer .

FWIW, retired LEO and I own and carry a custom Hi Power, last of the MK III forged ones. Had it made in 1989. Shoot regular 115 grain ball for practice, and carry Winchester's T load 127 grain +P+ when out an about. Shoot the +P+ when requalification comes around. Use the wolf 18 pound spring kit r both hammer and recoil. 17 years of this, and no damage to the gun. Use mecgar mags.

Lee-

I heard that Browning during the .40 S&W years beefed up the frame and started using cast instead of forged. They said it was stronger.

I am glad my is forged though.

It is stronger cast, as painful as it is to admit it. Just look at any Ruger revolver. That said I sure like the looks of the Nighthawk Hi power. I'd purchase the Nighthawk HP before the Wilson XDC if I were to purchase a high end full metal 9mm.

I like Wilsons. Have a few.

Hell, we all should just get a Cabot Guns 1911 and be done with it.

Yea Right!

No, that is wrong, especially in soft tissue. You're correct about the reduced penetration (sometimes) from more expansion, but the rest is completely false. You seem to have bought in to the myth that handgun bullets only damage what they actually touch, but that's bunk and easily proven wrong if you go shoot some animals with them. By your "logic" for example, a 90gr .380 and a 90gr +P+ 9mm should do the same damage, but that's absurd.

yes they are pretty, to pretty to shoot, but personally Id go STI carry comp for a high cap 9 at that price, or maybe both worlds, 9 in SVI. pretty sure a Browning wouldn't take the rounds as well as one of these.

Carry STI VIP (very impressive pistol) winter and a Kimber Aegis in summer.

Bullet performance. Hmmm think id take a cop shooting at me with his best FBI loads , than a Latham or top gamer using his round nose cast lead bullets. more likely to only get shot once.

But the point is really to shoot first.

This has been posted before. Still a good reference.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm

If you say so man

A JHP doe not always penetrate less when speeded up. I've seen more penetration with more velocity many times it just depends on the individual bullet being used. For instance the 185 grain grain XTP in the 45 Super out penetrates the same bullet when fired from a standard 45 ACP or + P version.

the plastic guns will handle +P+ 9mm. The 115 grain federal LE ammunition has been fired with ease through most of my Glocks. I sold my high power years ago, did not want to carry it cocked and locked without a grip safety.

based on everything I have seen and read, gungeek is right about this. Most pistol wounds are indistinguishable in the operating room or morgue. Again stuff like this is like a religious belief and you will never believe it yet its why the 9mm has surpassed the 40 caliber sw and why the FBI is said to have adopted the 9mm. Naturally there are logical end points to this so I view it more as a bell curve regards pistols and their bullets. Funny thing my friend and I were shooting 230 grain hard ball from his shield the other day and the sun was just so at 20 yards we could watch the bullet in flight.

Keep in mind there are actual tests that prove a 55 FMJ and 3100 FPS at 20 feet is quite different than a 9mm 124 super expanding wonder bullet at 1000 or even 1200. Yet more results from the operating room that indicate pistol wounding is quite similar.

Even skipping a rock on water has some hydrostatic forces. Between 1890 and 1905 a lot of information and communication was studied. The U.S. Calvary insisted on a .45 caliber. For good reason. It is all about stopping a threat. But here we are talking about the 9mm and making the best of it. It does kill.

Even the Brits reported having trouble stopping drugged up perps with their .303 Rifles. Then the Dum-Dum bullet was designed.

stopping power/power factor/momentum vs. wound channel have been an on going debate forever. Really gets going when major and minor are considered in handguns

interesting thing is 55 gr. military barely if even makes major power factor.

Both assume that hits are being made, which is enough to throw the entire discussion out the window. i.e.. the cases that get studied don't include total number of rounds fired vs. er damage. (sample group is biased)

Too old and tired to get into lack of hand gun shooting skills in average shooter.

as a side note and back to discussion topic : if you are interested in shooting hot stuff, either factory or reloads (seated out perhaps) check into a throating reamer from brownells. This will give you freebore and keep the pressures down.
poly rifling doesn't get helped but these guns usually show blown cases "early" anyway.

nothing is 100%, but its fairly well proven now that common handgun calibers shooting good bullets are more similar in performance than they are different. The diminutive 55 grain FMJ at 3100 fps at close range is pretty consistent in its results as well, a 55 grain soft point at the same speed would be a very bad deal for the receiver.

Can anyone point to and share any study where a statistically large sampling of civilian shootings in which the violent criminal continued to be threat after he had been shot 1-3 times with any caliber used in defense of life and limb? I would be interested in reading it.

I never heard of such study. Or have not seen one.

I did read a study from ER doctors. Said that perps on certain drugs just won't go into shock as easy. Harder to put down. That was a while back. I did a quick search, but did not fine it. CNS damage or eventual loss of blood is all you have with handguns.

Anyone that claims that increased speed does not increase wound channel is simple wrong. A 38 special doe not do the same damage that a 357 mag does shooting the same bullet. The 357 mag also out penetrates the 38 special shooting the same JHP bullets. Some of the crap I read on here tells who doesn't shoot much game.

Anyone who can show me a statistically valid study that there is a statistically measurable difference in outcomes when a 380 or 9mm or 40 SW or 45aCP is used in self defense then I am willing to learn and change .

http://www.stoppingpower.net/commentary/comm_cop_killers.asp

?? Marshal has pretty much been discredited.

I'm so tired of this argument, we've done this to death.
.
Yes increased velocity CAN increase wound channels. And your comment about some bullets traveling deeper...for the purpose of this discussion, when I make a comment like I did about penetrating less, you have to understand that such comments are made in the light of "All else being equal"...because without the "all else being equal" qualifier, all we would do is talk about every exception to every rule we can find. So while your comment is very relevant, it would be more relevant in a different discussion about very specific bullets in specific cartridges through specific mediums.

But more to your comment, while trying to bring it back to the "all else being equal" for the sake of argument. You're absolutely right that bullet velocity can increase wound cavity. But from 9mm standard pressure to +P ADVERTISED velocities increase about 100fps, while in the real world they're closer to about 70fps. So to think that 70fps in soft tissue is a make or break difference is a bit naive. Like I said, 124's at standard pressure are right on the teetering edge of passing the FBI's tests for barrier penetration, that extra 70fps in hard mediums has put it over the edge. The124's were about 50/50 passing/failing the windshield test, and that little extra velocity made it 100%, but the wound cavity in tissue stimulants have been mostly the same as standard pressure.

The analogy of 38 Special vs. .357 rather confuses the issue. We're talking about 9mm vs. 9mm +P, and the difference is at best 100fps. The difference between .38 Special and .357 Magnum is 300fps or more; so there's a 3 fold difference. So when I say the tissue destruction is basically the same, such a statement isn't absolute and doesn't extend to something like the .38 Special vs. .357; it's specific to 9mm vs. +P.

You need to shoot more and stop repeating the same old BS. All ain't one is faster than the other and will most of the top bullets on the market faster penetrates better.
The 38 vs the 357 is relevant same bullet vs same bullet one just faster than the other and it is a relationship that most understand. The rules of terminal ballistics are not different for the 9mm.

You also claim the the 9mm penetrates hard barriers tan 45 ACP and that is also easy to dispel by actually shooting hard barriers as I have done.

Your just repeating the BS that you've read, go out and shoot.

John, if I said the sky was blue, you'd say it's green

If anyone can show me there are statistically valid differences in the outcomes of CIVILIAN self defense shootings based on caliber then I will pay attention. Right now I have heard so many hunters say DRT and you can't kill nothin with a 22 and 45 ACP all the way, that have nothing more than one anticdotal story or somewhere where they shot a water bottle or Uncle Lou swears by it and he is a security guard at the bank. On the other hand if your hunting cape buffaloes with a 44 Magnum with a 300 grain bullet or a 500 smith and Wesson with a 500 grain bullet shooting deeper is better.

Whatever you shoot, learn to HIT vitals, choose the best bullets in that round, and make sure you have a reliable gun.

Oh, and don't get hit by the bad guy....

JWP, I put a few 240 SWC thru very wide thick Willow trees along the banks of a local river, years ago with a 4" M29, and no doubt, the heavy bullets drill deep. Wouldn't recommend standing on the exit side. Sure it would easily cut thru a car door, windshield, etc.

Sorry Jimmy, I'm gonna go with my own experience of what I've seen in testing and in live animals instead of what some guy has read and seen on the internet. Too many people just repeat the same garbage they were told, because it looks or sounds good, without knowing if it's true or not. I don't need your statistical study of civilian shootings (which would be meaningless at best) to show me what bullets do in meat, and whether pushing them faster causes more damage.

When you see golf ball sized holes through deer's heart/lungs from expanding handgun bullets, it's pretty easy to recognize that the guys claiming stuff like what GunGeek said simply don't know what they're talking about.

Nope, I,be shot enough to know what I'm talking about.

Amazing what one learns by actually doing.

Can you shoot that Double Plus stuff in a Glock, not that I would. I would just go 357 sig or 40 cal

Dude its no worries, this stuff is like a religion, Islam or Baptist you believe what you believe. I am not talking about anyone on the internet, I am talking about the direction of the military and the FBI. Can you point to a significant study with statistically valid results that prove that a 45ACP is a better cartridge than a 40SW or 9mm? At the same time for years I myself felt under gunned without at least a 308 winchester while hunting. All this one shot stop crap has been debunked. Look at what that Islamist who was on Obama's transition team did with the FN five-seven, and its just a bit over a 22 magnum. We all have our belief systems regards guns etc, push came to shove a G17 with 147 grain XTP's would work for me, but not for others and they feel inadequately protected without a 45 acp while others need a 4 inch 44 magnum. I am not arguing what is right for you, arguing what seems to be the consensus of the marketplace and why its going in that direction.

Yes, you can certainly shoot +P+ in a Glock, keeping in mind that the +P+ nomenclature does not have a pressure limit and you could blow up any gun with too much pressure. One of my G19 pistols sees a regular diet of +P+ loads; I happen to have a favorite hot load that is the most accurate load in that gun.

Jimmy, it's not like religion for those of us who've actually seen for ourselves. Religion is about believing something you can't prove; this is not like that at all, except for the guys making claims that can't be proven because they're wrong. We're not talking about whether 45 is better than 9mm or anything like that. The claim made was that +P+ 9mm doesn't get you any advantage over standard 9mm - that specifically is what I am addressing, please don't try to confuse it with that other stuff. Stick to the facts, none of this blind "religious belief" junk, there's no reason to believe something about guns that can't be proven.

What is the consensus? Preference?

124gr. vs 147gr for the Hi-power.

I like 124 grain JHP's

Gibby, I'd go with the 124s, I think there's a better margin for reliability without excessive pressures using 124s.

I am sticking with the facts, handguns are all notoriously under powered and another 75-100 feet per second buys very little in the way of results. Yes I shoot +P+ in my glocks and yes a 115 grain +P+ saved my bacon one day in a dog attack. Would a regular pressure 115 done the same thing, yes because I shot him in the head.

Yondering you said you have seen for yourself, can you share that with us? Just curious what is your experience? Are you in law enforcement training, military, a trauma doctor in a major hospital, work for a company that investigates shootings, FBI, etc??

If your just a regular shooter like me, then your perceptions are what they call "anecdotal" or pertaining to your experience and do not represent any formal study or statistically valid result. If so you can personally believe it but it does not necessarily make it so.

Thinking has gone full circle since the FBI investigated the 10mm, settled on the 40SW and now with decent bullets is back to the 9mm. In the 1000 feet per second +/- or so window bullets its entirely possible that the bullet matters more than another 75 feet per second.

Using some logical deductions might lead us in a direction we can both agree on. If +P+ made such a huge difference the 357 SIG would be the only thing people carried, and yet it is just not all that popular. If another 1-200 FPS in 9mm were the "hammer of Thor" so to speak, wouldn't people use it more frequently? Again anecdotally some swear by it, but it has become rare on the gun shelves of today.

It does seem to be a trend. LEO follows the FBI, civilians follow LEO.

Wait for the next FBI shooting catastrophy. Tactics and individual marksmanship under fire won't be blamed. Bad bullets, lack of this and that will be hashed over for the next 20 plus years. The gun industry and writers will have a hay day$$$$$$.

In my opinion, l believe defensive shootings in the near future especially with jihadists are going to involve more body armor. Enter the 5.7 and 22TCM. Perhaps the 357 sig with penetrator rounds and even the 10 mm penetrator rounds should not be overlooked.

I would like to share an observation that my neighbor shared with me. He was a moto-cop in Cali. He used to carry an N-frame 357 then switched to the G-21. 1. Was for the capacity 2. He said in the shootings that he saw and the after action reports, the old 45 was superior in his experience, it just hit harder. He didn't say what ammo, though I am sure it was the best at the time.

Assuming that the original question was answered....

Does the FBI get into more firefights than big city police?

I doubt it, but they gather the data and have deep pockets for R&D.

I shoot quite enough. These types of discussions I like to refer to commonly available data so that everyone is capable of staying on the same page. Your "data" is anecdotal and unscientific since it's not done in a controlled scientific environment; which is why I'm not always talking about the latest piece of who know's what grade steel I've shot through.

Animals ain't scientific enough huh? People vary as well, no doubt that more speed with same bullet increases damage, but you have to shoot a lot of Game to observe and by your post I doubt you do.

No, animals ain't specific enough...there's a reason why no one doing scientific bullet study uses animals; it's not controlled, and it's not repeatable. It's great for anecdotal evidence, but it's not scientific. Now we could discuss shooting animals, but when we're done, all we have are a bunch of hunting stories that wont' actually prove anything. I'm not saying field experience is irrelevant, just not scientific. And for the discussions we're trying to have, I think it just distracts from the discussion when someone interjects something anecdotal, trying to pass it off as scientific and definitive, when in fact it just isn't.

If that's the only discussion you think is relevant, please have at it. I'm not interested in engaging in what will surely be a pizzin contest of who has shot more of this or that. To my eye, that is not germane to the discussion as it was started, but if it has irretrievably gone that direction; I'll bow out and you're welcome to have at it.

I came to the same conclusion for the same reasons. I like Federal HST's in other carry calibers. The Winchester PDX1 Defender looks good. The Speed Gold Dot of course is a favorite.

That's what I figured real world events are meaningless! Yeah right! I'll take real world result every day of the week, you can have the BS, it mores zero sense to claim that increased speed with the same Bullets don't increase wound damage. Hell most realize that the only difference between a 357 mag and a 38 spl. is speed and the faster projectile does more damage and penetrates deeper n

You are hilarious.

9 mm has probably killed more people than another cartridge, certainly more than any pistol cartridge, and most were with FMJ

people hurt easy.

additional advantages for increased velocity,
in lighter bullets they give the shooter more control over recoil.

standardized statistical tests will never happen due to non-homgeneous target matter

The selection of 9mm ammo today is good. Particularly the choice of high quality HP and other gimmicks.

Its too bad the cost makes it practice prohibitive. Sooooooo if a particular flavor gives confidence, just skip the training and trigger time.

It's clear your only intention is to demean. I said I didn't think it was pertinent to THIS discussion because it's anecdotal. Perhaps we are both just trying to have two different discussions.

I get your point about velocity. In the case of factory 9mm, between standard pressure and +P, you are generally talking the exact same bullet...so from that standpoint "all else is equal".
In the case of .357 magnum, with most factory ammo these days, the bullets used in factory .38 special loadings and .357 magnum are not the same bullet. Most defensive JHP's loaded in factory ammunition (not bulk bullets for handloaders) will have a lead core of a different metalurgical properties with the .357 bullet being harder, or sometimes a thicker jacket...especially in loadings with lighter bullets. Therefore "all else is not equal" in discussing .38 special vs. .357 magnum. So observations of shooting factory .38 special and .357 magnum into animals really doesn't bring anything to the table when discussing factory 9mm vs. 9mm+P.

Yes, 9mm JHP's from the more reliable manufacturers is very good ammo. I personally don't worry about the +P thing, but clearly others do and opinions differ. We're talking a difference of MAYBE 100fps, so put whatever meaning to that you deem appropriate.

Dude, give it up already. You made a foolish claim, and are now trying to marginalize it and confuse the issue, which is what liberals do, instead of accepting valid points from the opposing view like a man. Do you really want to be that way?

You included +P+ in your claim too, not just +P, so we're talking about 150-200 fps difference, or 20-25% more power. Trying to marginalize that difference by ignoring obvious comparisons and real life evidence doesn't make you sound like a reasonable person.

If you want to discuss anecdotal data, be my guest. Like I said, I have no interest in such discussions because they go even worse than this thread has gone. For comparing one load to another, my only interest is scientific testing in a controlled medium. Ya'll aren't interested in that, so I'm out.

I'll just say, you're all right, I'm wrong; and I never know anything. There, now feel free to continue on.

John, who you talking to here? You copied two different posts.

Are you stating, in the context of this thread, that you can tell the difference between 9mm bullet wounds due to a 200 fps?

Is there a difference between a regular 9mm wound and a 357 sig? +P+ loads are almost there'

at 200 fps increase a 125 gr. bullet goes from a 125 power factor to 150

a 147 goes from 140 to 170 or major

its pretty easy to get to 38 super with a 9mm if you reload in a 1911 platform or CZ

of course this takes it above +P+ and out of the context o this thread just saying

the target certainly reacts to the increased momentum (knock down)

If the expansion characteristics of the projectile are designed for the lower velocities the higher will certainly cause more upset.

Etoh,

I get all that, but unless I zigged when I should have zagged, this thread has incorporated the severity of wounds in game correlated to velocity. That's also fine, but I personally don't have the ability to make that correlation visually based on the difference between standard 9mm and +P.

The question of how dead is dead will always come up. does a reg 9 make deader than 9+ ??? or vice versa.

For self defense the increased momentum is definitely there.

For 1911 type guns and hunting I use a 45 mag. case necked down to 355 with over all length at standard 45ACP mag length. 5 in 38 super Barsto re-chambered, and Wilson Comp
For revolver I use a Blackhawk re-chambered 357/44 Bain and Davis.

Have a pretty good feel for the differences in .355 and .357 bullets out there.

Gel testing is only for comparing bullets/cartridges/ bullets to get an indication if they rate going to the field which is it matters most. Even in gel testing 200 fps makes a difference. Is logic escaping you?

Exactly!

YOU are talking 200fps, I am talking maybe 70fps.* You need the velocity to be dramatically greater in order for you to make any sort of point. I'm saying there isn't a dramatic difference.

You claim you like to talk about real world stuff...I have chronographed a good number of "+P" rounds and it's not uncommon to find the velocity exactly the same, 50fps more, sometimes 70fps more, and rarely 100fps more. I have never encountered a 9mm round that is an honest 200fps more; not even close. Have you actually seen FACTORY ammunition that pushes a 124-JHP an HONEST 1350fps; because I sure haven't.

Clearly you don't understand physics. If the frontal diameter is increased, so is resistance; this is why penetration is often the same or less with +P's IN SOFT TISSUE. The additional 50-70fps was all about barrier penetration, not about making larger wounds. If you really think that 50fps is the magic number that suddenly makes the 9mm effective, you're more dense than I ever gave you credit for. Again, with the caveat that all else is the same. If there is the slightest difference in the bullet, then you can't make an apples to apples comparison.


*From the get go, I have dismissed +P+ because there is no SAAMI standard for such a thing. If you persist in talking about unicorns, please engage someone else in conversation.

Original poster wanted to know if the HP could take higher pressures which he used +P+ as an example, and as mentioned no SAAMI exists. so the question is open.

Fisher proved they could be way back when. accept or don't. total round count on his guns alone during their 3 year rule in competition probably exceeded total round count combined on campfire handgun forum.

Extreme Spreads will show considerable differences especially in shorter barrels. Was that round used for tissue testing choreographed before it was used on game? Jeeezzz

The head spacing is critical, if too long the firing pin pushes the case forward and primers back out and then pierce when the case reseats them. This was the problem with Colt 38 Supers factory barrels also, and why they needed to be replaced. To check if any 9 will tolerate higher pressures, a pretty good indication comes from examining the primers.

Define Drama What happens on 24hr Campfire

It is an open question, I was just clarifying that I have nothing to offer on +P+ because I find it a dubious round at best, because often it's just +P or I've even found velocities to match standard pressure. No surprise since there is no SAAMI standard, and no requirement to meet ANY standard, which is why I bow out of +P+ discussions; there's no way to tell what you're actually discussing. So ya'll carry on with the +P+ if you want.

GG-
You have offered some good information here. So has everybody else. Some of the discussions get heated. That is the way it is on any website. I have learned a lot.


Here is what I am going to do.

1) Shoot standard 9mm in 115gr or 124gr. Buying bulk.

2) I am down to three picks on the carry loads. HST, PDX1 or Speer Gold Dot. First I will test them in the gun with standard springs and the extra power I am getting from Wolf.

This thread has been a big help to me. Thanks to everybody who participated.

OK , Thanks

The advances in handguns, both loads and guns has come from those folks willing to experiment, Even technique was started by individuals, and later copied by law enforcement, and military (as far as pistol goes) modified by their departments etc.
I could be wrong but the high dollar "FBI" approved stuff isn't carried by the normal 9mm shooter, much less used in practice, and its use as hunting round even less.
For anyone to use an inside the box view only , because they are only counting factory loads is to ignore the advances in reloading (which is far ahead of factory) and the use of major 9mm in competitive shooting. This only exemplifies the ignorance of that position.
The manufactures are taking the safe trigger approach and assuming the Dum Dum is the one holding the gun.

Todays variety of 9mm is marketed to large volume purchase by law enforcement, and their needs to have some basis for the same legal reasons. Perhaps it is not good to have a lot of Wyatt Earps.

Even the current hot stuff rarely gets past 1100 fps, and the a 200 fps increase would put it in the 38 super class.

But the question isn't whether a +P+ is this or that, but whether it is more suitable in a particular platform. If that platform weighs less, is more concealable, and doesn't increase recoil recover significantly it is worth it.

But I don't carry +P+ either so I guess I shouldn't say anything.

If the 9mm I decided to carry can't do +38 Super its gone.

It's interesting to note, most factory .38 Super loads will be very close to what is advertised as 9mm +P rounds, basically 124/125gr at around 1,350fps. I have always felt that even the so called .38 Super +P has always been rather conservative in factory loadings. I wanna say the original loadings that Colt/Browning developed were very close to current .357 loads. I think they were trying to equal the 9x25 Mauser cartridge which was the velocity king back around the turn of the 20th century.

Technical Information:

Caliber: 9mm Luger
Bullet Weight:124 Grains
Bullet Style: Nosler Jacketed Hollow Point
Case Type: Ducta-Bright 7a Nickel Plated Brass
Ballistics Information:

Muzzle Velocity:1300 fps
Muzzle Energy: 465 ft. lbs.

That is Underwood Ammo and in my experience they get a bit more velocity.

Print Print »
PART # USE CALIBER BULLET WEIGHT
GRAINS
MUZZLE VELOCITY BULLET STYLE BALLISTIC COEFFICIENT BRAND REVIEWS
P9HST1S
Personal Defense 9mm Luger 124 1150 HST®


Excuse me, it's 150 fps which is still significant.

From Midway's website:

Black Hills standard pressure
Technical Information
Caliber: 9mm Luger
Bullet Weight: 124 Grains
Bullet Style: Jacketed Hollow Point
Case Type: Brass

Ballistics Information:
Muzzle Velocity: 1150 fps
Muzzle Energy: 363 ft. lbs.

Black Hills +P
Technical Information
Caliber: 9mm Luger +P
Bullet Weight: 124 Grains
Bullet Style: Jacketed Hollow Point
Case Type: Brass

Ballistics Information:
Muzzle Velocity: 1250 fps
Muzzle Energy: 430 ft. lbs

100fps ADVERTISED velocity difference. I think this is pretty much typical for the difference in standard velocity vs. +P.



Perhaps that Underwood is their ADVERTISED velocity for +P+??? My point is, with a +P+ not having a standard, you can't trust an advertised velocity. So with a round that has no actual specification, advertised velocity is pretty much meaningless; you have to run it over a chronograph before you know anything. This is why I just don't really discuss +P+...it's often a unicorn.

Show me the 38 Spcl loads that clock 1350 fps here in this tests. http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/

.38 SUPER!, reading comprehension is your friend.

Show me the +P 9mm loads in 124 grain that get 1350 fps.

I was talking about .38 Super...but yeah, I didn't word that right. I meant to say what is advertised at +P+; left out the other +. And I said close, not exactly.

I have to take issue with this statement. Not to hijack this thread and maybe you were simply referring to the 9mm as underpowered, but I have killed some really big game with handguns and have not found them wanting for anything. As is always the case, the bullet is the critical choice one needs to make.

Carry on....

I don't carry a 500 SW concealed😄most CCW handguns are much less powerful than rifles which is what we were discussing. Do you feel big bore handguns are as powerful as big bore rifles?

Max,

I think that statement was in relation to common defensive handgun cartridges. Certainly big bore handguns are fully capable of getting most any job done if the shooter is up to it.

Why do you continue to ignore reported experience, falling back on the "advertised" and "unicorn" comments when something doesn't fit your particular argument?

jwp said his experience with that Underwood load is they run a little faster, and my experience is the same - that 124gr +P+ load runs 1300-1320 fps in a Glock 19. Underwood's standard pressure load does run an honest 1150 fps, but many other brands do not; 1100 fps or even lower is common in my experience (pay attention - this is reality, not advertised). There's your 150-200 fps difference.

And you did say +P+ in your original claim.

Back to what you initially said, that started the argument - you're claiming that pushing a pistol bullet faster doesn't have any benefit except barrier penetration. We are saying you're wrong; it gives a flatter trajectory, more effective range, and more damage, even if there's only a small difference. Would you like to restate that, or do you stick by that claim?

Perhaps that's YOUR experience, that's not mine. And if this is a discussion of Underwood ammunition, I'll have to bow out of that one, I have no experience with it.

I believe it's original purpose was to penetrate barriers and body armor.

Exactly this thread is about 9 +P+ and geek originally said it didn't buy you anything but better barrier penetration, which is good IMHO but definitely not all that it buys you.

I don't carry a .500 S&W for concealed carry, but I don't carry a 9mm either. Do I feel big-bore revolvers are as powerful as big-bore rifles? No, but often no less effective depending on bullet choice.

He made a broad sweeping statement I wasn't sure he meant.

You probably carry that 10mm delta elite! My comments were 380, 9mm, 45aCP in that genre.

👎 Nope, that's not what he carries.

What does he carry John.

Often he carries a Lee Horton M29

I would love to have one of those 629 3 inch barreled guns with the fancy wood grips, damn the revolvers have gone sky high these days.

There were only 5k of each of the different 3" Lew Horton S&W N frame revolvers made. 29, 629, 24, 624 and perhaps some other models, but that's what I remember off to top of my head. I wanna say it started with the model 24 around 1984. All of those guns went away pretty fast, and the market for them remains very strong.

forgot the 657 lew horton, lets not forget 41magnum.
i have shot both the 629 and 657 in the horton version. Like them both, particularly with little lighter loads, like 41special, and 44special.

Yeah, you're right, I did forget the .41. And now I'm thinking perhaps there was a 686 as well.

wonder if the 629 "deluxe" they currently offer is anything near the horton special. They are heavy guns however I am carrying my 4 inch 629 these days on the deer lease, the shot shells work pretty good.

I'm really not a fan of magnum revolvers below 4". If I had a 4" 629 I'd just call it good. The 3" all steel guns, Horton or otherwise, won't be a significant weight savings, but you'll lose velocity, gain more recoil, and muzzle blast. Now if a guy wanted one of the Lew Horton 3" N frames just because they're so damn cool...now that I can understand.

Friend of mine has a Lew Horton 24, calls it "Stumpy." More coolness than most people can comprehend.

The 24 & 624 were my favorite. In special that revolver kinda makes sense in my world. Not so much for the magnums.

IIRC, those Horton 24's are probably the most valuable of all the Lew Horton's.