Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns +P+ in the Browning Hi-Power?

John, who you talking to here? You copied two different posts.

Are you stating, in the context of this thread, that you can tell the difference between 9mm bullet wounds due to a 200 fps?

Is there a difference between a regular 9mm wound and a 357 sig? +P+ loads are almost there'

at 200 fps increase a 125 gr. bullet goes from a 125 power factor to 150

a 147 goes from 140 to 170 or major

its pretty easy to get to 38 super with a 9mm if you reload in a 1911 platform or CZ

of course this takes it above +P+ and out of the context o this thread just saying

the target certainly reacts to the increased momentum (knock down)

If the expansion characteristics of the projectile are designed for the lower velocities the higher will certainly cause more upset.

Etoh,

I get all that, but unless I zigged when I should have zagged, this thread has incorporated the severity of wounds in game correlated to velocity. That's also fine, but I personally don't have the ability to make that correlation visually based on the difference between standard 9mm and +P.

The question of how dead is dead will always come up. does a reg 9 make deader than 9+ ??? or vice versa.

For self defense the increased momentum is definitely there.

For 1911 type guns and hunting I use a 45 mag. case necked down to 355 with over all length at standard 45ACP mag length. 5 in 38 super Barsto re-chambered, and Wilson Comp
For revolver I use a Blackhawk re-chambered 357/44 Bain and Davis.

Have a pretty good feel for the differences in .355 and .357 bullets out there.

Gel testing is only for comparing bullets/cartridges/ bullets to get an indication if they rate going to the field which is it matters most. Even in gel testing 200 fps makes a difference. Is logic escaping you?

Exactly!

YOU are talking 200fps, I am talking maybe 70fps.* You need the velocity to be dramatically greater in order for you to make any sort of point. I'm saying there isn't a dramatic difference.

You claim you like to talk about real world stuff...I have chronographed a good number of "+P" rounds and it's not uncommon to find the velocity exactly the same, 50fps more, sometimes 70fps more, and rarely 100fps more. I have never encountered a 9mm round that is an honest 200fps more; not even close. Have you actually seen FACTORY ammunition that pushes a 124-JHP an HONEST 1350fps; because I sure haven't.

Clearly you don't understand physics. If the frontal diameter is increased, so is resistance; this is why penetration is often the same or less with +P's IN SOFT TISSUE. The additional 50-70fps was all about barrier penetration, not about making larger wounds. If you really think that 50fps is the magic number that suddenly makes the 9mm effective, you're more dense than I ever gave you credit for. Again, with the caveat that all else is the same. If there is the slightest difference in the bullet, then you can't make an apples to apples comparison.


*From the get go, I have dismissed +P+ because there is no SAAMI standard for such a thing. If you persist in talking about unicorns, please engage someone else in conversation.

Original poster wanted to know if the HP could take higher pressures which he used +P+ as an example, and as mentioned no SAAMI exists. so the question is open.

Fisher proved they could be way back when. accept or don't. total round count on his guns alone during their 3 year rule in competition probably exceeded total round count combined on campfire handgun forum.

Extreme Spreads will show considerable differences especially in shorter barrels. Was that round used for tissue testing choreographed before it was used on game? Jeeezzz

The head spacing is critical, if too long the firing pin pushes the case forward and primers back out and then pierce when the case reseats them. This was the problem with Colt 38 Supers factory barrels also, and why they needed to be replaced. To check if any 9 will tolerate higher pressures, a pretty good indication comes from examining the primers.

Define Drama What happens on 24hr Campfire

It is an open question, I was just clarifying that I have nothing to offer on +P+ because I find it a dubious round at best, because often it's just +P or I've even found velocities to match standard pressure. No surprise since there is no SAAMI standard, and no requirement to meet ANY standard, which is why I bow out of +P+ discussions; there's no way to tell what you're actually discussing. So ya'll carry on with the +P+ if you want.

GG-
You have offered some good information here. So has everybody else. Some of the discussions get heated. That is the way it is on any website. I have learned a lot.


Here is what I am going to do.

1) Shoot standard 9mm in 115gr or 124gr. Buying bulk.

2) I am down to three picks on the carry loads. HST, PDX1 or Speer Gold Dot. First I will test them in the gun with standard springs and the extra power I am getting from Wolf.

This thread has been a big help to me. Thanks to everybody who participated.

OK , Thanks

The advances in handguns, both loads and guns has come from those folks willing to experiment, Even technique was started by individuals, and later copied by law enforcement, and military (as far as pistol goes) modified by their departments etc.
I could be wrong but the high dollar "FBI" approved stuff isn't carried by the normal 9mm shooter, much less used in practice, and its use as hunting round even less.
For anyone to use an inside the box view only , because they are only counting factory loads is to ignore the advances in reloading (which is far ahead of factory) and the use of major 9mm in competitive shooting. This only exemplifies the ignorance of that position.
The manufactures are taking the safe trigger approach and assuming the Dum Dum is the one holding the gun.

Todays variety of 9mm is marketed to large volume purchase by law enforcement, and their needs to have some basis for the same legal reasons. Perhaps it is not good to have a lot of Wyatt Earps.

Even the current hot stuff rarely gets past 1100 fps, and the a 200 fps increase would put it in the 38 super class.

But the question isn't whether a +P+ is this or that, but whether it is more suitable in a particular platform. If that platform weighs less, is more concealable, and doesn't increase recoil recover significantly it is worth it.

But I don't carry +P+ either so I guess I shouldn't say anything.

If the 9mm I decided to carry can't do +38 Super its gone.

It's interesting to note, most factory .38 Super loads will be very close to what is advertised as 9mm +P rounds, basically 124/125gr at around 1,350fps. I have always felt that even the so called .38 Super +P has always been rather conservative in factory loadings. I wanna say the original loadings that Colt/Browning developed were very close to current .357 loads. I think they were trying to equal the 9x25 Mauser cartridge which was the velocity king back around the turn of the 20th century.

Technical Information:

Caliber: 9mm Luger
Bullet Weight:124 Grains
Bullet Style: Nosler Jacketed Hollow Point
Case Type: Ducta-Bright 7a Nickel Plated Brass
Ballistics Information:

Muzzle Velocity:1300 fps
Muzzle Energy: 465 ft. lbs.

That is Underwood Ammo and in my experience they get a bit more velocity.

Print Print »
PART # USE CALIBER BULLET WEIGHT
GRAINS
MUZZLE VELOCITY BULLET STYLE BALLISTIC COEFFICIENT BRAND REVIEWS
P9HST1S
Personal Defense 9mm Luger 124 1150 HST®


Excuse me, it's 150 fps which is still significant.

From Midway's website:

Black Hills standard pressure
Technical Information
Caliber: 9mm Luger
Bullet Weight: 124 Grains
Bullet Style: Jacketed Hollow Point
Case Type: Brass

Ballistics Information:
Muzzle Velocity: 1150 fps
Muzzle Energy: 363 ft. lbs.

Black Hills +P
Technical Information
Caliber: 9mm Luger +P
Bullet Weight: 124 Grains
Bullet Style: Jacketed Hollow Point
Case Type: Brass

Ballistics Information:
Muzzle Velocity: 1250 fps
Muzzle Energy: 430 ft. lbs

100fps ADVERTISED velocity difference. I think this is pretty much typical for the difference in standard velocity vs. +P.



Perhaps that Underwood is their ADVERTISED velocity for +P+??? My point is, with a +P+ not having a standard, you can't trust an advertised velocity. So with a round that has no actual specification, advertised velocity is pretty much meaningless; you have to run it over a chronograph before you know anything. This is why I just don't really discuss +P+...it's often a unicorn.

Show me the 38 Spcl loads that clock 1350 fps here in this tests. http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/

.38 SUPER!, reading comprehension is your friend.

Show me the +P 9mm loads in 124 grain that get 1350 fps.

I was talking about .38 Super...but yeah, I didn't word that right. I meant to say what is advertised at +P+; left out the other +. And I said close, not exactly.