Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns +P+ in the Browning Hi-Power?

Dude its no worries, this stuff is like a religion, Islam or Baptist you believe what you believe. I am not talking about anyone on the internet, I am talking about the direction of the military and the FBI. Can you point to a significant study with statistically valid results that prove that a 45ACP is a better cartridge than a 40SW or 9mm? At the same time for years I myself felt under gunned without at least a 308 winchester while hunting. All this one shot stop crap has been debunked. Look at what that Islamist who was on Obama's transition team did with the FN five-seven, and its just a bit over a 22 magnum. We all have our belief systems regards guns etc, push came to shove a G17 with 147 grain XTP's would work for me, but not for others and they feel inadequately protected without a 45 acp while others need a 4 inch 44 magnum. I am not arguing what is right for you, arguing what seems to be the consensus of the marketplace and why its going in that direction.

Yes, you can certainly shoot +P+ in a Glock, keeping in mind that the +P+ nomenclature does not have a pressure limit and you could blow up any gun with too much pressure. One of my G19 pistols sees a regular diet of +P+ loads; I happen to have a favorite hot load that is the most accurate load in that gun.

Jimmy, it's not like religion for those of us who've actually seen for ourselves. Religion is about believing something you can't prove; this is not like that at all, except for the guys making claims that can't be proven because they're wrong. We're not talking about whether 45 is better than 9mm or anything like that. The claim made was that +P+ 9mm doesn't get you any advantage over standard 9mm - that specifically is what I am addressing, please don't try to confuse it with that other stuff. Stick to the facts, none of this blind "religious belief" junk, there's no reason to believe something about guns that can't be proven.

What is the consensus? Preference?

124gr. vs 147gr for the Hi-power.

I like 124 grain JHP's

Gibby, I'd go with the 124s, I think there's a better margin for reliability without excessive pressures using 124s.

I am sticking with the facts, handguns are all notoriously under powered and another 75-100 feet per second buys very little in the way of results. Yes I shoot +P+ in my glocks and yes a 115 grain +P+ saved my bacon one day in a dog attack. Would a regular pressure 115 done the same thing, yes because I shot him in the head.

Yondering you said you have seen for yourself, can you share that with us? Just curious what is your experience? Are you in law enforcement training, military, a trauma doctor in a major hospital, work for a company that investigates shootings, FBI, etc??

If your just a regular shooter like me, then your perceptions are what they call "anecdotal" or pertaining to your experience and do not represent any formal study or statistically valid result. If so you can personally believe it but it does not necessarily make it so.

Thinking has gone full circle since the FBI investigated the 10mm, settled on the 40SW and now with decent bullets is back to the 9mm. In the 1000 feet per second +/- or so window bullets its entirely possible that the bullet matters more than another 75 feet per second.

Using some logical deductions might lead us in a direction we can both agree on. If +P+ made such a huge difference the 357 SIG would be the only thing people carried, and yet it is just not all that popular. If another 1-200 FPS in 9mm were the "hammer of Thor" so to speak, wouldn't people use it more frequently? Again anecdotally some swear by it, but it has become rare on the gun shelves of today.

It does seem to be a trend. LEO follows the FBI, civilians follow LEO.

Wait for the next FBI shooting catastrophy. Tactics and individual marksmanship under fire won't be blamed. Bad bullets, lack of this and that will be hashed over for the next 20 plus years. The gun industry and writers will have a hay day$$$$$$.

In my opinion, l believe defensive shootings in the near future especially with jihadists are going to involve more body armor. Enter the 5.7 and 22TCM. Perhaps the 357 sig with penetrator rounds and even the 10 mm penetrator rounds should not be overlooked.

I would like to share an observation that my neighbor shared with me. He was a moto-cop in Cali. He used to carry an N-frame 357 then switched to the G-21. 1. Was for the capacity 2. He said in the shootings that he saw and the after action reports, the old 45 was superior in his experience, it just hit harder. He didn't say what ammo, though I am sure it was the best at the time.

Assuming that the original question was answered....

Does the FBI get into more firefights than big city police?

I doubt it, but they gather the data and have deep pockets for R&D.

I shoot quite enough. These types of discussions I like to refer to commonly available data so that everyone is capable of staying on the same page. Your "data" is anecdotal and unscientific since it's not done in a controlled scientific environment; which is why I'm not always talking about the latest piece of who know's what grade steel I've shot through.

Animals ain't scientific enough huh? People vary as well, no doubt that more speed with same bullet increases damage, but you have to shoot a lot of Game to observe and by your post I doubt you do.

No, animals ain't specific enough...there's a reason why no one doing scientific bullet study uses animals; it's not controlled, and it's not repeatable. It's great for anecdotal evidence, but it's not scientific. Now we could discuss shooting animals, but when we're done, all we have are a bunch of hunting stories that wont' actually prove anything. I'm not saying field experience is irrelevant, just not scientific. And for the discussions we're trying to have, I think it just distracts from the discussion when someone interjects something anecdotal, trying to pass it off as scientific and definitive, when in fact it just isn't.

If that's the only discussion you think is relevant, please have at it. I'm not interested in engaging in what will surely be a pizzin contest of who has shot more of this or that. To my eye, that is not germane to the discussion as it was started, but if it has irretrievably gone that direction; I'll bow out and you're welcome to have at it.

I came to the same conclusion for the same reasons. I like Federal HST's in other carry calibers. The Winchester PDX1 Defender looks good. The Speed Gold Dot of course is a favorite.

That's what I figured real world events are meaningless! Yeah right! I'll take real world result every day of the week, you can have the BS, it mores zero sense to claim that increased speed with the same Bullets don't increase wound damage. Hell most realize that the only difference between a 357 mag and a 38 spl. is speed and the faster projectile does more damage and penetrates deeper n

You are hilarious.

9 mm has probably killed more people than another cartridge, certainly more than any pistol cartridge, and most were with FMJ

people hurt easy.

additional advantages for increased velocity,
in lighter bullets they give the shooter more control over recoil.

standardized statistical tests will never happen due to non-homgeneous target matter

The selection of 9mm ammo today is good. Particularly the choice of high quality HP and other gimmicks.

Its too bad the cost makes it practice prohibitive. Sooooooo if a particular flavor gives confidence, just skip the training and trigger time.

It's clear your only intention is to demean. I said I didn't think it was pertinent to THIS discussion because it's anecdotal. Perhaps we are both just trying to have two different discussions.

I get your point about velocity. In the case of factory 9mm, between standard pressure and +P, you are generally talking the exact same bullet...so from that standpoint "all else is equal".
In the case of .357 magnum, with most factory ammo these days, the bullets used in factory .38 special loadings and .357 magnum are not the same bullet. Most defensive JHP's loaded in factory ammunition (not bulk bullets for handloaders) will have a lead core of a different metalurgical properties with the .357 bullet being harder, or sometimes a thicker jacket...especially in loadings with lighter bullets. Therefore "all else is not equal" in discussing .38 special vs. .357 magnum. So observations of shooting factory .38 special and .357 magnum into animals really doesn't bring anything to the table when discussing factory 9mm vs. 9mm+P.

Yes, 9mm JHP's from the more reliable manufacturers is very good ammo. I personally don't worry about the +P thing, but clearly others do and opinions differ. We're talking a difference of MAYBE 100fps, so put whatever meaning to that you deem appropriate.

Dude, give it up already. You made a foolish claim, and are now trying to marginalize it and confuse the issue, which is what liberals do, instead of accepting valid points from the opposing view like a man. Do you really want to be that way?

You included +P+ in your claim too, not just +P, so we're talking about 150-200 fps difference, or 20-25% more power. Trying to marginalize that difference by ignoring obvious comparisons and real life evidence doesn't make you sound like a reasonable person.

If you want to discuss anecdotal data, be my guest. Like I said, I have no interest in such discussions because they go even worse than this thread has gone. For comparing one load to another, my only interest is scientific testing in a controlled medium. Ya'll aren't interested in that, so I'm out.

I'll just say, you're all right, I'm wrong; and I never know anything. There, now feel free to continue on.