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I think not. I believe His ressurection is the main event.

His atoning death is just a symbol of something far greater in my opinion. In some way we will never comprehend He reconciled all of creation with its Creator. We humans are the only ones free to refuse the reconciliation.

I chose to partake.

Id add this...Im a Catholic and unapologetic about it. I truly believe it to be the one true Church created by Jesus himself. This is not something that was indoctrinated into me as a youth but something I came to understand and believe as an adult with much prayer and contemplation. Organized faith...any organized faith is what you make it. You take the good with the bad but always try to mend and make it better. Take ownership of your faith and invest in its future.

With that being said, THE message is far more important than the technicalities. Love one another as I have loved you...as a whole the Christian community needs to keep their focus on this message. Of course we should live our lives according to the commandments and the Bible...but loving one another must always be the end result of our personal faith in the Lord.

I struggle personally with this message. I often have trouble separating the sin from the sinner. I find myself hating the sinner when in fact i should be praying for the sinner and hating the sin...if that makes any sense at all. No one man is perfect...no one organization is perfect...what can I say.

makes perfectly good sense, and i've never been in a catholic church, no not one, in my whole life. but, the Teachings are so important. that minor detail often gets overlooked by those who follow the more mystical side of the Jesus belief system: that is, miraculous birth, death, resurrection, never really died, etc. but, to each their own. different strokes for different folks as they say.

and we all know that if it hadn't been for mary, we'd never have had jesus to begin with. lot's to think about when one delves in really deep, even over one's head at times.

but, the good news is the sun always rises tommorrow. or has so far anyways.

I read "Christ, & Him crucified" quite differently... what you speak (rightly) of is the "Christ". There is an "and" there so I don't know how one would take it as "Christ crucified"?

Unless looking for a disagreement with Paul that isn't there?

At any rate this is good conversation thanks all.

God loves who He loves. I don't know how all that works out and honestly I'm fine with that.

I know that I'm supposed to love and I hate; I know I am to seek to serve and I am selfish, am to be full of truth and I lie, etc etc etc.

And yet I receive love.

''’Tis mystery all! The Immortal dies!
Who can explore His strange design?
In vain the firstborn seraph tries
To sound the depths of love Divine!
’Tis mercy all! let earth adore,
Let angel minds inquire no more.
’Tis mercy all! let earth adore,
Let angel minds inquire no more."

We're all free to marvel or not I honestly am fine with you either way. I'll share and argue ideas but at the end of the day all I have I've received; I'd hate to get what I deserve I've got no illusions about that.

Grace & peace to you all!

He did a whole lot more than change the status quo, Gus. He made a way certain for all of mankind to be saved from a fate far worse than death. 'Course many are too dumb/proud/stubborn to understand and accept that. But He knew that too, by name.

Can you have one without the other? And what of the blood? Is it of no consequence? Far, far from it, my friend. By that very blood, Christ purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. Of course the resurrection is important, but how would it have happened without the cross and the blood there shed?

We won't see anything when we die just like all the other living things that die. If your God would promise to deposit a billion dollars in your bank account when you die that might make him worthy of consideration and also provide some evidence that your God actually exists. When you go to your Heaven what will you do when you there? What if you are dying from cancer and on life support when you die? Will you revert to a younger healthier age? How do babies and young children that die before they are old enough to know religion even exists get to your Heaven? Did you ever tell a child they would go to your Hell if they didn't believe in your God? If you told a child that you are guilty of child abuse. Christians have to be incredibly gullible or brainwashed (most likely by their parents) to believe in eternal life. They can't accept the fact that we are on the earth a very short time and that's all there is. You don't have to believe in a God to live a good moral life in the short time we're here.

Stephen Gardipee's decorations earned as a Loach pilot in Vietnam.

http://valor.militarytimes.com/recipient.php?recipientid=84632

Stephen Gardipee giving a little talk:

I see you've come to conclusions of your own and aren't really interested in what others have to say so I'll take your questions as rhetorical, but add that I don't know. Seriously don't and honestly don't care.

That's because it's mysterious and that's ok.

Like I said, I'm fine with your decision.

he did a lot. what, exactly depends upon our own particular belief system. and that's what we've all been discussing. sometimes we've discussed it in great detail. i know christianity is important for those of us who place great emphasis on the Afterlife. nothing whatsoever wrong with that.

but, there's more. way more. there's life on this earth, for our ancestors, us, our children & grand children, and theirs and theirs. in other words, too much emphasis on life after death and it might cause us to ignore some things in the present life that might mean rectifying for the benefit of those who follow us. many of us seem to have missed that point, not everyone, but many. cutting the trees to make room for more asphalt to allow more parking for the growing church. lol. what a concept.

Victoro,
I agree that you don't have to believe in God to live a good moral life here on earth, If however that life is to be a really good life it should be filled with peace,love,joy,goodness, kindness,gentleness,patience,and self control. If you have all these in your life,then I can't understand how you couldn't see God in that life. If however you are seeking those things in your life,as a Christian I have to tell you that I think they all come from a relationship with God.

I suspect that you are against religion,which some have called Christianity while practicing all the hateful things that comes from religion.That hatefulness has no part in Christianity and only comes from men striving to excel above their fellows. It's only pride that causes a man to debase another man in the name of God. I hate religion too. If you would ever like to talk about any of these things please feel free to PM me. I won't try to guilt you into accepting God but I will be happy to discuss any aspect of my faith that you may have interest in.

Without The Absolute Moral Giver, who decides what's moral? The guy with the most power!

Ricky, there were a series of events in the life and death of Jesus, undoubtably a lot more we DONT know about than the ones recorded in the Bible.

You claimed that the crucifiction was the most important of these events.

I claim the Ressurection is more important, primarily because it is the ONE event I don't have to rely on someone else's word for. He is alive today, I know for a certainty.

Amen. Agree 100%

the first part is debatable. then the second part is also debatable no matter how the first part falls out.

moral giver: yhwh, jesus, buddha, kali, shiva, great spirit, creator, allah, mighty pharoah?

then, at the second level, which "deity" is it ordained that we should worship?

and on what grounds? faith, belief, knowlege, or something else?

lot's of old, abandoned gods lying on the side of the road.

we all want to know the truth, no?

I see there's always some here that want to argue. This comes to mind.

"Choose you this day whom you will serve (or not serve)....... As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

Jesus doesn't need to be defended. In the end, several here have made it clear what it means to be a Christian (follower of Jesus). You can believe or not.

Jesus doesn't need to be defended. He has legal historical evidence beyond reproof for the objective searcher. But we need to be able to defend our faith. Consider....

1 Peter 3:13-16

"Who is there to harm you if you prove zealous for what is good? But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. And do not fear their intimidation, and do not be troubled, but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame."

I'm so happy to see so many believers here on the fire...it truly gives me comfort knowing so many good people are out in the world...and attracted to the outdoors!

Haters gonna hate...but I'll keep praying for them and doing my best to be a good example in my day to day life

May God bless you all

I think it comes down to how you do the scratching.