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Joined: Jun 2004
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
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I process my own meat most years and use a small commercial grinder to grind lots of really terrific lean hamburgers ... Oxymoron.
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Joined: Jan 2014
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OK I admit I'll mix in bacon or other fatty meats occasionally and almost always add seasoning and add an egg to the burger too. But they are much leaner than beef.
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 10,314 Likes: 3
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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The hunters that experience these then goes out looking for the holy grail of bullet design rather than fix his/her own inadequacies. +10
Black Cows Matter!
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Campfire Regular
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Nope. To each his or her own, but frankly, I rank the 'hunter lead ingestion problem' right down there with global warming. It's just another angle from which to chip away at our personal freedoms.
My use of Barnes bullets has been situational; only for their terminal benefit, or because they happened to shoot most accurately from a particular rifle. The choice is ours to make individually. It's all about personal freedom and choice.
"Ignorance is acceptable, because you can remedy it with knowledge and research. Stupidity is when you guard your ignorance." Ted Nugent
"Idolizing a politician is like believing the stripper really likes you."
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Joined: Nov 2003
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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The choice is ours to make individually. It's all about personal freedom and choice. That truly is the bottom line !
Last edited by Ringman; 08/22/17.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Campfire Outfitter
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Far more fear and bias here than facts. Shoot something in the ribs and lead won't mysteriously get into the hams or the shoulders. I butcher my own animals. It's pretty easy to see where the bullet and bone fragments are, when shots are less than ideal. I don't put pre-ground meat into the burger pile. I can't imagine why anyone would. It's full of bacteria which are far more likely to injure or kill than lead in the meat. Common sense ALWAYS applies. The x rays I saw suggest otherwise. Lead particles traveled a long ways from where the entrance wound was and not only in the direction one would think. Very easy to shoot something behind the shoulder and have particles make it into the should or back strap.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Mar 2017
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BWalker, the problem with those x-rays you're looking at is that they're two dimensional pictures that give no indication of the depth of the particles you're seeing. HuntnShoot is correct that the particles don't just magically make their way to the shoulders or hams. It's far more likely that the particle you think are in the shoulders are actually in the organs within the body cavity away from the meat. I've seen many of the same pictures you have and have no concerns whatsoever about lead in wild game.
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Joined: Jul 2014
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A lot of the responses have gotten off of the original question, which was switching bullets due to lead panic. It has nothing to do with which kills better. Not using lead bullets for fear of polluting your kids is asinine bs. Everybody has shot game for many years with lead bullets and I don't think that it has ever been proven that wild game killed with lead is harmful. That is left-wing loony fodder, just to try to make everybody panic and get rid of lead.
Use what you want, if it works, but losing the lead bullets for the health of it is stupid.
You did not "seen" anything, you "saw" it. A "creek" has water in it, a "crick" is what you get in your neck. Liberals with guns are nothing but hypocrites.
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Joined: Feb 2008
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I didn't think it was an issue either until I saw an x-ray of a carcass killed with lead and copper bullet. Lead fragments had spread way beyond the wound entry area to the tune of 10 or more inches.
MnDNR sheep test? Those photos I have seen. I can see the cases of extreme spread of the lead in some of those shots and can see where it is pretty reasonable once you understand that most of the lead s very, very fine particles that are nether visible nor palpable. A hit will lift the onside hide and separate it some from the underlying tissue. Extremely small particles would likely form a cloud intermixed with blood and finely ground tissue/bone and the whole mess could be well and widely disseminated. Witness the "pink mist" when you splatter a varmint. It''s logical to assume that both the entrance area and the exit area would show some of that dispersion along with the wound path through the middle. One of the significant problems though is the blood inside the cavity has to be assumed to be well contaminated. When you gut, the is no way to avoid contaminating OTHERWSE uncontaminated areas like the hams and tenderloins even in the case of a through the chest double lung shot.. I have never seen any Xray or otherwise analytical attempt at shedding light on that problem. While there undoubtedly would be bacterial contamination of meat after a bullet passes through there is a lot to consider if we get into that issue.
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Campfire Outfitter
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A lot of the responses have gotten off of the original question, which was switching bullets due to lead panic. It has nothing to do with which kills better. Not using lead bullets for fear of polluting your kids is asinine bs. Everybody has shot game for many years with lead bullets and I don't think that it has ever been proven that wild game killed with lead is harmful. That is left-wing loony fodder, just to try to make everybody panic and get rid of lead.
Use what you want, if it works, but losing the lead bullets for the health of it is stupid. Very small amounts of lead are harmful to young kids. It's been proven that lead makes its way into the meat of game. Not sure how much more proof you need.
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 19,091 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 19,091 Likes: 2 |
[quote=MILES5
One of the significant problems though is the blood inside the cavity has to be assumed to be well contaminated. When you gut, the is no way to avoid contaminating [/quote]
Which is why the no gut method is preferred The body cavity is never opened.
If God wanted you to walk and carry things on your back, He would not have invented stirrups and pack saddles
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Campfire Outfitter
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I didn't think it was an issue either until I saw an x-ray of a carcass killed with lead and copper bullet. Lead fragments had spread way beyond the wound entry area to the tune of 10 or more inches.
MnDNR sheep test? Those photos I have seen. I can see the cases of extreme spread of the lead in some of those shots and can see where it is pretty reasonable once you understand that most of the lead s very, very fine particles that are nether visible nor palpable. A hit will lift the onside hide and separate it some from the underlying tissue. Extremely small particles would likely form a cloud intermixed with blood and finely ground tissue/bone and the whole mess could be well and widely disseminated. Witness the "pink mist" when you splatter a varmint. It''s logical to assume that both the entrance area and the exit area would show some of that dispersion along with the wound path through the middle. One of the significant problems though is the blood inside the cavity has to be assumed to be well contaminated. When you gut, the is no way to avoid contaminating OTHERWSE uncontaminated areas like the hams and tenderloins even in the case of a through the chest double lung shot.. I have never seen any Xray or otherwise analytical attempt at shedding light on that problem. While there undoubtedly would be bacterial contamination of meat after a bullet passes through there is a lot to consider if we get into that issue. I didn't think it was an issue either until I saw an x-ray of a carcass killed with lead and copper bullet. Lead fragments had spread way beyond the wound entry area to the tune of 10 or more inches.
MnDNR sheep test? Those photos I have seen. I can see the cases of extreme spread of the lead in some of those shots and can see where it is pretty reasonable once you understand that most of the lead s very, very fine particles that are nether visible nor palpable. A hit will lift the onside hide and separate it some from the underlying tissue. Extremely small particles would likely form a cloud intermixed with blood and finely ground tissue/bone and the whole mess could be well and widely disseminated. Witness the "pink mist" when you splatter a varmint. It''s logical to assume that both the entrance area and the exit area would show some of that dispersion along with the wound path through the middle. One of the significant problems though is the blood inside the cavity has to be assumed to be well contaminated. When you gut, the is no way to avoid contaminating OTHERWSE uncontaminated areas like the hams and tenderloins even in the case of a through the chest double lung shot.. I have never seen any Xray or otherwise analytical attempt at shedding light on that problem. While there undoubtedly would be bacterial contamination of meat after a bullet passes through there is a lot to consider if we get into that issue. I can't recall which study it was Miles. Eating game shot with lead bullets might be fine, I'm just not willing to take the chance with my kids given the anecdotal evidence that is out there.
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 32,130 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 32,130 Likes: 1 |
Got the tip of a pencil broken off in my arm while horsing around when I was a kid. Turned into a bad deal The entire vein in my arm turned red, felt sick, vomiting. Returned to normal after a doctor dug it out.
To each their own, but I'm done killing game with pencils.
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
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I thought most of this was liberal panic about awful harmful lead when it was about the stupid Condors eating carcasses but I saw some x-rays that were surprising in how widely distributed the particles were and it was posted by a hunter not an environmental group.
I may be guilty of looking for the holy grail bullet by the way. I used Nosler Ballistic Tips 7mm 150 grain for years but loaded 160 Accubonds for my first elk, it killed elk fine but was way less accurate in my rifle. I used 180 grain partitions in Dads old 30-06 to kill a cow because he always wanted to shoot an elk with that gun but never got the chance - they were OK but not as effective as my NBT. Then for several years I killed elk including 2 good sized bulls with the NBT's no long tracking jobs and everything died. I hit a bull in the ribs at an angle one year and the entry wound was the size of your hand. It killed the elk with shrapnel in the lugs after a 500 yard run. Luckily blood sprayed out on the snow shot every 15 yards so I found him easily but switched to Barnes then and haven't looked back.
I hadn't thought about health benefits until I read an article and saw the x-ray that was very convincing. It may be complete BS but I'm happy not to need to find out:
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Campfire Tracker
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Which is why the no gut method is preferred The body cavity is never opened.
I am rally happy for you that your animals don't bleed. That has to be a handy thing. I am just not that good with a rifle yet, and I do have to have those tenderloins, I just haven't got to the point can pass on them.
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Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 805
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Nope. To each his or her own, but frankly, I rank the 'hunter lead ingestion problem' right down there with global warming. It's just another angle from which to chip away at our personal freedoms.
It's all about personal freedom and choice. How is choosing what bullet you want to shoot, comparable to liberals trying to change our lifestyles and forcing their global warming religion on us? I think adults should debate this. We know lead is bad, will effect the brain. The debate is, is any spreading through the animal. I don't think it is much of an arguement to say I ate it, and I am fine. First, some here it is debateable. 2nd you could play in traffic, and be fine. I tend to think most people don't eat enough, add on top of that the stastical chance of getting the piece with it. If I had children, that I cared about, I read up on the topic.Just saying we are all fine, is not research. I think reading is safe.
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Joined: Jul 2017
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On the topic of, I did it, and I am fine, a recent study suggested the possibility of transfering CWD from deer to humans. If I lived in a CWD area, I would again read up. Sounded like the draw back of testing is waiting weeks for the result. There was talk about home testing. Granted companies selling testers, want you to test.
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Campfire Member
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Campfire Tracker
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BWalker,
The current CDC standard is zero lead for children and childbearing women.
That comes from finding clinical evidence of damage when they are down at the limits of what they can measure accurately. That standard poses a very significant question: Does lead intake in adult males follow different patterns or can we simply not measure that effect separately from the rest of the damage? The science has steadily decreased the standard for everyone, including adult males, so I wouldn't be surprised to see that trend continue. Substituting lead for calcium is where the problems come from.
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Joined: Jul 2001
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
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saddlesore, Here's the link to the European study of the effect of lead in game animals on hunters: www.springerlink.com/index/BFPM6CLJ036W3VKW.pdfThe only other data I have is limited: My wife had to have her blood analyzed for a number of years due to a medical condition. Game is 95% of our diet, the exception being when we eat out, which isn't very often. We use both lead and "non-toxic" shot and bullets, but would guess at least 3/4 are lead. The lead levels in her blood were considerably under the average for American adults.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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