I switched to Barnes TTSX quite a while ago for performance reasons well before my socialist state mandated non lead to save the ugly condors. But I really like elk burgers and grind a lot of my elk. I'm skeptical of the exaggerated health hazard claims but when I see X-rays that show ultra small particles spread through meat outside what would normally be bloodshot waste I'm glad I'm not grinding up lead in my delicious elk burgers.

Has anyone made the change just based on avoiding lead in their meat?

NO!

Nope., Several studies thru out the world has shown that hunters using lead bullets do not have anymore,and many times less lead in their bodies than non lead users.

It it were true, I'd be dead long ago.Growing up in the 50's we ate a lot of small game shot with shotguns/pellets and ingested more than a few.

I don't worry a bit about lead, but I am VERY fussy what goes into my burger.

Me either.

I switched to Barnes TTSX when the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw was no longer available. Not overly excited about lead in meat, but dislike any metal fragments in my meat. I just like a bullet that stays together and makes a decent exit wound. Lets the air right out of them! Happy Trails

No.

Yes.

No. I spread the love between leaded and unleaded.

I don't believe outright death is a symptom of lead poisoning in humans.

Long story, but I've been exposed to more lead than just about any person you could meet.

Guess what my blood results always show? Below average.

I rank lead concerns right up there with global warming. Bunch of horse schit.



Dave

Nope...if I didn't die from loading mouthfulls of lead bb's into my guns 55 or so years ago, I figure I'm ok. I should have been dead by 8, 9 years old if that was the case. Made it to 59 so far.

Countless doves, ducks, quail with the occasional pellet....guess I'm a dead man walking...

Seriously, I don't give it a second thought because I process my own meat...and I'm obsessively picky and clean...

Give a North Fork a try if you loved TBBC's....they'll make you cry tears of joy. More accurate, less fouling...same great terminal performance.

Metallic lead is really quite safe. Lead _salts_ are what your body will readily absorb and cause you problems. Lead salts come from the lead styphnate in primers, old lead paint, and things like those, but lead salts don't particularly come from metallic lead.

Nope...Never concerned me...

I carried some lead fragments in my body for a couple years before they worked their way out the exit hole.
No residual problems from that so not sure I want to believe all the hype.

I knew if I hung around long enough there'd be an explanation.

I'd add any aerosol lead to the list like oxide dust and lead vapors from casting.

It's not about what lead you are exposed to but what lead your body absorbs.

Metallic lead is very deadly to birds because they have a totally different digestive system than humans do, and that's why lead is banned for waterfoul and game within the Condor range.

no.

Used Federal Trophy Copper to kill a cow.
Worked fine but I went back to lead just for convenience I guess.





Got the tip of a pencil broken off in my arm while horsing around when I was a kid.
Turned into a bad deal
The entire vein in my arm turned red, felt sick, vomiting.
Returned to normal after a doctor dug it out.

This is ignorant BS. There is well more than enough chlorine available between your lips and [bleep] to make all the lead chloride you need to cause damage to your CNS. Chlorine is exceptoinal at mobilizing lead. Your stomach uses hydrochloric acid to break down your food.

Lead is always toxic. Lead may be encapsulated like any foreign body and walled off from the rest of your body and thus not so likely to poison you. But, it can also be liberated in the process of your body trying to expel it. The lysing enzimes your body used to break down protein like that it uses to encapsulate foreign bodies will moblize lead. For childbearing women and small children there is no known safe lead level.

I use no lead for shooting animals I intend to eatand I am quite happy to do so because the copper bullets that have been available since Barnes solved the X bullets initial problems are in my opinion superior to cup and core lead in almost all ways.

I guess all us old farts should be dead by now then.."opinion" being the operative word there.

So you're saying graphite is bad for you too?

I'm using mostly monometals now due to fear of exposing my kids to lead. And that's the only reason as they don't kill as well as traditional lead and copper bullets.

Given some thought to the alleged risks of lead, but it might be a moot point. The USFWS has been charged with keeping a data base on lead toxicity of federally protected wildlife, and at some states request they've also been keeping track of other wildlife species. Apparently in a short time the USFWS has compiled a fair list of critters who have died from lead toxicity. The USFWS has announced plans on prohibiting lead core bullets on the lands they manage. Colorado Parks & Wildlife has been running a little blurb in their Big Game Brochure for the last few years about recommending the use of mono bullets.

Pure speculation on my part, but it seems the handwriting is on the wall and sometime in the near/mid-term future I wouldn't be surprised to see some states (like Colorado) prohibit lead core bullets for hunting. Just like lead shot.

I have something approaching a lifetime supply of NBT's and NPt's seconds in some calibers and weights sitting in my reloading cabinet. With no small effort of willpower, I'm trying my darnedest to stay away from SPS until I have reduced my lead bullet inventory...........

Casey

A lead ban will happen. It's only a matter of time.

I agree the lead ban will happen, sometime, but I figure is will be from the greenies flexing their muscle instead of a real danger to Humans. From what I know about the matter it seems the birds have to ingest a lot of pellets for there to be a real danger. That is why ducks and birds that feed on them is the main danger. Condors are too limited in range for them to be considered by most people. miles

I remember Obama had signed an EO banning lead bullets on some federal lands. Trump signed an order canceling that.

The main reason I don't use Barnes and other monos is that in the future,the antis is will use the excuse that many are already are using them and it won't be a problem to ban them. Those that do use them now are just helping their cause

I use Barnes because they are the best bullet for the job period.

The antis will never go away, barnes or not...

And, IMHO, if we were limited to monos for game, it would not be a negative like steel for waterfowl is.

To have to use mono for target etc... would be a huge negative.

So the antis won't go away then you will help them out

I probably have killed more elk than most on this forum and have never used a mono without any problems. "best bullet for the job period" Your opinion only,no fact.

If and when the national ban comes , the std C&C bullet will not be available for long.Then it will hit you in the pocket book. Like any other thing that gets baneed, a little chip here and there until it is all gone.

No!!!! We've been using them since the early'90's, simply because they work so well! memtb

Flat statements are ridiculous, period.

Use what you want and let us who like monos use them without the holier than thou sermon. I prefer technological advances over trying to redo old ways of doing something.

Yep.

That single statement says probably more than you ever intended and certainly more than you could imagine.

Considering the loss of meat that occurs with lead bullets and which is due to the lead of and by itself, just looking at the value of the meat lost at grocery store meat cost, the cost of the monos well more than offset unless you only head shoot or you ignore the lead. I have killed close to fifty deer myself with monos. The people I have loaded them for have killed a few more. That's a sample of right on 100 that while not random, it is as close to random as the intentional act of shooting an animal is going to get. Out of that sample there have been no lost animal. There have been no animals that required a second shot. That's over about fifteen years using monos. Over fifty years using cup and core bullets I have personally killed a like number. I lost none, but there were a number that did need a second dose and that was a result of bullets either being deflected by bone or coming undone, something that's never happened with a mono that I have loaded.

I don't agree with a lot that rost has to say, and in fact I am skeptical of Texas people in general, but he may well be right. When it comes to killing critters monos might well be the best available for the job in competent hands. I have never seen anything less than perfect performance out of them.

Ask him how many elk he's killed, this is the elk forum right? Then compare that answer to saddlesore's tally and get back with us on who's "right."

I sometimes wonder about the effect lead fragments in my game meat might have on my family. If there is a significant risk I would consider moving to Barnes, but if the risk it's mostly politically contrived I'd prefer to stay with my known performers like Accubonds. There are plenty of lead=bad articles out there supplied by less than impartial groups, but the problem I have is finding good unbiased studies on the subject relating lead hunting ammunition to negative effects on Humans.

Here's one that shows a 0.3 microgram/deciliter increase in blood lead levels for folks who eat game meat (presumably shot with lead) vs those who do not:

Lead level in Hunters

That increase seems really small, about 1/5th of the average blood lead level in the US (according to Google anyway)

I'd be really interested in seeing other studies that actually look at the effect of big game hunting with lead ammunition on the health of the hunters and their families. Everything else is just noise.

Interesting study but it goes into no detail on the species of game consumed. Seeing as how it's Dakota, I'd guess a lot of pheasant and waterfowl, not really germane to big game consumption.

There is also the issue of designated "Critical Habitat" for species listed under the ESA. For example, it looks like large swaths of USFS lands in the Rockies and parts of the PNW will be designated as critical habitat for lynx. If the USFWS determines enough evidence exists that lead toxicity poses a risk to lynx, the USFWS could impose lead core bullet ban on the federal lands designated as critical for lynx. Or the USFS--who is also responsible for administrating the ESA--could impose the ban themselves. And it could be extended to private lands also.

Miles,

I've have seen evidence of monos not tracking straight as it traverses through a critter. I can only speculate what caused it. I have also seen them fail to open, probably because of lower velocity. Don't get me wrong, I think monos do well, I have used them myself and witnessed their performance on critters quite a bit. If or when I use them in the future it'll be with confidence.


Casey

Well, out of right on 100 deer killed with monos, the majority of which were Barnes and maybe 10 were with both E-Tips and GMXs, I have observed, the worst deflection I have seen is maybe 20 degrees or so on a fawn double lung shot with a Barrnes 130 out of a 30-06. During that period I did see one Hornady Flex tip 160 grain out of a 30-30 deflect off a rib rid up under the hide, pass through part of the chops and exit directly above the spine. I have seen the same pre-mono days with cup and core bullets on several occasions, but in those same days a number of internal deflections, some of which were quite startling.

What gives me so much more confidence in the monos is along with the noticeable absence of deflection, the extraordinary penetration of bone without deflection. One particular doe I high shouldered at closer to 300 yards with a 110 gran .270 TTSX: Fist size hole in the onside shoulder blade, four ribs near the spine edgewise, a fist size chunk of spine removed from the bottom of the spine, two more ribs edgewise and a quarter size hole in the off side blade and then out. Spine and shoulder blade are not particularly hard, but they're still bone. Ribs are very hard and springy. For that bullet to traverse that much bone in a straight line is remarkable. The particular deer also had caliber size in and out holes in the hide which contrasted quite surprisingly with the massive internal damage.

The link is to the abstract of the study. What I have seen of the study itself however is lacking in some important detail.

Quite some time ago, Muledeer posted a study done in Sweden that was very well done.I don't have it any more but perhaps he will chime in.I think I finally trashed it because I got tired of arguing with stupid people. More political than science. Sort of like global warming

Understood. Like someone else said, shotgun pellets in a bird's breast meat are different than a bullet (even with fragments) in a rib cage of a big game animal. You would think that if they differentiated between those they would have at least mentioned that in the abstract.

That's graphite not lead in them there pencils!

Yep,I will be working on number 51 in three weeks. At least 20 of them have been with pure lead or copper coated lead, muzzle loader bullets. Others were with Sierra Game Kings, Sierra 220 gr RN, a few Rem bronze points and a few Nosler partitions . Double lung shots ruin very little meat if any. I don't shoulder shoot or butt shoot elk. I have lost one elk in all those years. A long tracking job on another elk was due to my inadequate shooting, but it was recovered. I can't remember many that required a second shot. Again those that did was because of poor bullet placement,not the bullet.

Three scenarios of bullet failure occur.One is the elk was never recovered , so no proof of bullet failure. Another is elk recovered ,but poor bullet placement was the reason the elk did not die immediately.The third is selecting a bullet not designed for the job. This usually occurs when a hunter pushes bullet at magnum speeds that is designed for less than 2800-290o fps max or they take questionable angled shots .The hunters that experience these then goes out looking for the holy grail of bullet design rather than fix his/her own inadequacies.

Hmmm... How do you account for people using factory ammo that comes undone at normal ranges without entering the chest? How do you account for factory ammo used at very short range that comes undone? How do you account for factory ammo cup and core bullets that deflect off a rib and just slide around under the hide? How do you account for factory ammo that deflects off bone, penetrates the chest and fails to hit the internal target because of the deflection? I've seen examples of all of the above.

[quote=MILES58
Hmmm... How do you account for people using factory ammo that comes undone at normal ranges without entering the chest? Too light a bullet for the job.How do you account for factory ammo used at very short range that comes undone? Ditto How do you account for factory ammo cup and core bullets that deflect off a rib and just slide around under the hide? Too much of an angle on the shot placement A rib squarely hit will most likely shatter. How do you account for factory ammo that deflects off bone, penetrates the chest and fails to hit the internal target because of the deflection? Ditto I've seen examples of all of the above.

[/quote]

As I mentioned,poor bullet placement, too great an angle in the shot, or improper selection of the bullet to begin with. I bet most of those instances were with magnum loads of of bullets designed for slower velocity.Myself, I have never experienced any of those.However,I am not a shoulder shooter.

Actually, no. I think all of those instances were 170/180 grain 30 caliber bullets. 30-06, 308 and 30-30. One 30-30 was a 160 grain FTX Hornady LeverEvolution, so it may have been a little fast at 15 yards

Dang, you are unique in the annals of the internet. Most lost animals or long tracking jobs are due to bullet failure.

didjoo mean 'anals' of the innernet?

For those in denial, I will ask a favor.

Here is how it will go down.The antis will begin a process to ban all lead bullets.Their argument will be that there are many mono copper bullets on the market,and no need to shoot those dirty lead ones. ( remember the lead shot ban on waterfowl where the lead shot shells were $6-$8 a box and now the lead free are what $25). Ignorant legislatures who know nothing about the shooting sports will pass the ban because it will not affect them ( remember the Obamacare that they are not required to carry)..Lead bullets will not be available shortly thereafter and the mfgr's will slowly increase the cost of the monos. Those now saying the cost of a bullet is a small cost of the over all hunt will be saying "Holy Crap, I can't afford to go hunting now".

Just as a lot of our rights are being chipped away a little at a time, hunters will try to figure out how it all happened.
So my favor is :Print his out,stick it in an envelope and put it in your gun safe, in 10 -15 years when I am under the sod, (and it won't be from lead ingestion) take it out and read it.

If I am wrong you can come and pi$$ on my grave, but I bet you will be saying "That old cantankerous fart was right"

I'd never say that. You left out "cantankerous."

OK, you two, I'm gonna split the difference say it's pretty equal between bullet failure and poor bullet placement.

My family owns/owned property in the high country, adjacent to public lands long before I was on this planet. Specifically in GMU's 66, 65, 62, and 61. My parents live from May-November in unit 61 adjacent to NF at 9200 ft. The cabin is all off-grid. From the time I was cognizant I've found dead deer and elk on or near our property(s). Among the dead, unrecovered elk I've found in unit 61 over the past 20 years, and of the carcasses that were still fresh enough to tell, about half of them were shot in the front half (the deadly end of an elk) and about half had bullet holes in the back half.

Over the years, I've found three elk that were fresh enough, and I had the time and inclination, that I did a "bullet necropsy". All three times it was a conventional jacketed bullet, (the most recent still had remnants of a red plastic tip and looked suspiciously like a Hornady) and it failed to penetrate very far. Giving the elk enough time to live and run a fair distance in dry weather in moderately thick timber, and obviously never found. All three of those elk were shot in the front half.

I'll take this opportunity to stick my neck out and say bullet construction trumps everything when it comes to elk hunting--as opposed to BC and such..........

I've already told myself the next time I run across a fresh, unrecovered elk carcass I'm gonna do another bullet necropsy, take pics and post them here on the 'fire and get rightous about some of the "preferred" elk bullets recommended here on the 'fire.

And I'll probably get my azz flamed.......but, oh well.......

Casey

Sorry.Fixed it.

I like that, a man's got to know himself.

No, in fact I like to grind a little lead in my steak using a pepper grinder filled with lead shot.

MIles, the man's killed 50 elk. You're starting to sound like Zerk, arguing for arguments sake.

By your own admission you get your jollies off trailing game that runs. Given that your "best" comment makes sense.

I'm a fan of Barnes for elk, we had elk burger for dinner last night and I'm down to my last package so it is time to fill the freezer. My great grandkids are eating the burgers now and they are really the group at risk for exposure under 3 years old and less than 35 lbs doesn't take much lead to be toxic.

They won't know much about lead bullets by the time they are elk hunting they will think monometal bullets were always what was used. The idea that they will likely have to register to buy ammo turns my stomach but at least they won't be blaming old papa for lead poisoning and all that goes with it.


My decision didn't have anything to do with possible toxicity but it is one less thing to worry about.

No.

Perhaps the point I have been making that I have yet to see any such failures out of monos s just too subtle for some people and they have to resort to personal attack?

Something in the neighborhood of 99% of hunters use the ammo I described. I have personally experienced those kinds of failures, and on more than one occasion.

One of the effects of lead toxicity is CNS degradation.

No!

That's where I am coming from in my choice not to use lead on game I feed my kids.

I've used more monos than anything else because they (TTSX) seem to always shoot the best of the bullets I try. Never been disappointed in their performance. As for lead, I have no idea if it's an issue, but I doubt it's good for me.

I wonder how many here actually have enough information from studies on the effects of lead (and other materials) used in big game bullets on meat and consumption by adults to actually make an informed decision? I certainly don't.

You mean like this one:

This scenario is exactly why I have stocked up on some Nosler E-Tips in my favorite calibers, and why I still have a box or two of Barnes TSX bullets on hand as well. I wouldn't put it past the state to suddenly outlaw lead-core bullets for hunting.

Guy

They didn't need that argument in CA, why would they need it now?

In California, they don't need any arguments to do stupid things. California does not need it now, their lead bullet ban is already in effect.

Just like the spring bear hunt and ban on leg hold traps in CO, this will start with ballot initiatives started by petitons to put such laws on state general elections.The people who are against all hunting ,shooting sports and those on the fence will sign those petitions,and vote for them when they appear on the ballot.The hunting/shooting public will not show up at the polls.

States like New Jersey,Illinois, New York, and the District of Columbia will jump on that band wagon as soon as the liberals figure out funding to pay petition gathers

If they do I'll never go hunting there again......

This. ^^^^

The fewer metal particles/shot pellets in my meat the easier it is on my teeth. We've found the TTSX to be excellent performers and have yet to recover one. They have been very accurate bullets, I've put them lengthwise through mule deer, right at half the animals have gone straight down and none have gone more than a few yards.

Not wanting to expose your kids to lead is hardly ridiculous.

Me neither !


Casey

Completely agree with that, but I just don't think that is an issue, but I respect your concern. It's the second part of your statement that I take issue with.

I didn't think it was an issue either until I saw an x-ray of a carcass killed with lead and copper bullet. Lead fragments had spread way beyond the wound entry area to the tune of 10 or more inches.

I never thought of it before. Then I read how some of you have been eating lead all your life. It doesn't always kill you. It can just make you dumb. The guy who's death started the Baltimore riots, was a lead licker.

There's a surprise.

"Like most things, zerk had never thought of it before."

Far more fear and bias here than facts. Shoot something in the ribs and lead won't mysteriously get into the hams or the shoulders. I butcher my own animals. It's pretty easy to see where the bullet and bone fragments are, when shots are less than ideal. I don't put pre-ground meat into the burger pile. I can't imagine why anyone would. It's full of bacteria which are far more likely to injure or kill than lead in the meat. Common sense ALWAYS applies.

That explains me then....

Wasn't that the reply of many people here?

I can understand why some with kids would switch but I agree with this. Switching to copper bullets is a very easy way to guarantee no lead so it's not like those who switch are at any kind of disadvantage or inconvenienced.

I process my own meat most years and use a small commercial grinder to grind lots of really terrific lean hamburgers, sausage when seasoned and often mixed with ground pork once in a while I get a chunk of sinew that I didn't catch. If I can miss that how would I catch every lead particle. The X-rays are scary when you see a big spray of small pieces, so you could easily shoot one in the ribs and spray lead into your back straps and shoulder meat out of the path you would expect. Personally I'll shoot them in the neck, shoulders, ribs and spine depending on the angle and distance and if they are wounded or not. I've finished a couple with head shots in an attempt to not damage meat as well.

My switch to all copper was strictly based on a poor result from a ballistic tip on a good sized bull. I like the TTSX for accuracy and penetration, I think the softer lead core bullets do a little better job if you slip them between the ribs and miss bone. With any kind of tough angle or bone involved, even ribs, the Barnes really outshine the traditional designs.

Oxymoron.

OK I admit I'll mix in bacon or other fatty meats occasionally and almost always add seasoning and add an egg to the burger too. But they are much leaner than beef.

+10

Nope. To each his or her own, but frankly, I rank the 'hunter lead ingestion problem' right down there with global warming. It's just another angle from which to chip away at our personal freedoms.

My use of Barnes bullets has been situational; only for their terminal benefit, or because they happened to shoot most accurately from a particular rifle. The choice is ours to make individually. It's all about personal freedom and choice.

That truly is the bottom line!

The x rays I saw suggest otherwise. Lead particles traveled a long ways from where the entrance wound was and not only in the direction one would think. Very easy to shoot something behind the shoulder and have particles make it into the should or back strap.

BWalker, the problem with those x-rays you're looking at is that they're two dimensional pictures that give no indication of the depth of the particles you're seeing. HuntnShoot is correct that the particles don't just magically make their way to the shoulders or hams. It's far more likely that the particle you think are in the shoulders are actually in the organs within the body cavity away from the meat. I've seen many of the same pictures you have and have no concerns whatsoever about lead in wild game.

A lot of the responses have gotten off of the original question, which was switching bullets due to lead panic. It has nothing to do with which kills better. Not using lead bullets for fear of polluting your kids is asinine bs. Everybody has shot game for many years with lead bullets and I don't think that it has ever been proven that wild game killed with lead is harmful. That is left-wing loony fodder, just to try to make everybody panic and get rid of lead.

Use what you want, if it works, but losing the lead bullets for the health of it is stupid.

MnDNR sheep test?

Those photos I have seen. I can see the cases of extreme spread of the lead in some of those shots and can see where it is pretty reasonable once you understand that most of the lead s very, very fine particles that are nether visible nor palpable. A hit will lift the onside hide and separate it some from the underlying tissue. Extremely small particles would likely form a cloud intermixed with blood and finely ground tissue/bone and the whole mess could be well and widely disseminated. Witness the "pink mist" when you splatter a varmint. It''s logical to assume that both the entrance area and the exit area would show some of that dispersion along with the wound path through the middle.

One of the significant problems though is the blood inside the cavity has to be assumed to be well contaminated. When you gut, the is no way to avoid contaminating OTHERWSE uncontaminated areas like the hams and tenderloins even in the case of a through the chest double lung shot.. I have never seen any Xray or otherwise analytical attempt at shedding light on that problem.

While there undoubtedly would be bacterial contamination of meat after a bullet passes through there is a lot to consider if we get into that issue.

Very small amounts of lead are harmful to young kids. It's been proven that lead makes its way into the meat of game. Not sure how much more proof you need.

[quote=MILES5

One of the significant problems though is the blood inside the cavity has to be assumed to be well contaminated. When you gut, the is no way to avoid contaminating
[/quote]

Which is why the no gut method is preferred The body cavity is never opened.

I can't recall which study it was Miles. Eating game shot with lead bullets might be fine, I'm just not willing to take the chance with my kids given the anecdotal evidence that is out there.

To each their own, but I'm done killing game with pencils.

I thought most of this was liberal panic about awful harmful lead when it was about the stupid Condors eating carcasses but I saw some x-rays that were surprising in how widely distributed the particles were and it was posted by a hunter not an environmental group.

I may be guilty of looking for the holy grail bullet by the way. I used Nosler Ballistic Tips 7mm 150 grain for years but loaded 160 Accubonds for my first elk, it killed elk fine but was way less accurate in my rifle. I used 180 grain partitions in Dads old 30-06 to kill a cow because he always wanted to shoot an elk with that gun but never got the chance - they were OK but not as effective as my NBT. Then for several years I killed elk including 2 good sized bulls with the NBT's no long tracking jobs and everything died. I hit a bull in the ribs at an angle one year and the entry wound was the size of your hand. It killed the elk with shrapnel in the lugs after a 500 yard run. Luckily blood sprayed out on the snow shot every 15 yards so I found him easily but switched to Barnes then and haven't looked back.

I hadn't thought about health benefits until I read an article and saw the x-ray that was very convincing. It may be complete BS but I'm happy not to need to find out:

I am rally happy for you that your animals don't bleed. That has to be a handy thing. I am just not that good with a rifle yet, and I do have to have those tenderloins, I just haven't got to the point can pass on them.

How is choosing what bullet you want to shoot, comparable to liberals trying to change our lifestyles and forcing their global warming religion on us?

I think adults should debate this.

We know lead is bad, will effect the brain.

The debate is, is any spreading through the animal. I don't think it is much of an arguement to say I ate it, and I am fine. First, some here it is debateable. 2nd you could play in traffic, and be fine.

I tend to think most people don't eat enough, add on top of that the stastical chance of getting the piece with it.

If I had children, that I cared about, I read up on the topic.Just saying we are all fine, is not research. I think reading is safe.

On the topic of, I did it, and I am fine, a recent study suggested the possibility of transfering CWD from deer to humans. If I lived in a CWD area, I would again read up. Sounded like the draw back of testing is waiting weeks for the result. There was talk about home testing. Granted companies selling testers, want you to test.

I don't eat lungs.

BWalker,

The current CDC standard is zero lead for children and childbearing women.

That comes from finding clinical evidence of damage when they are down at the limits of what they can measure accurately. That standard poses a very significant question: Does lead intake in adult males follow different patterns or can we simply not measure that effect separately from the rest of the damage? The science has steadily decreased the standard for everyone, including adult males, so I wouldn't be surprised to see that trend continue. Substituting lead for calcium is where the problems come from.

saddlesore,

Here's the link to the European study of the effect of lead in game animals on hunters:
www.springerlink.com/index/BFPM6CLJ036W3VKW.pdf

The only other data I have is limited: My wife had to have her blood analyzed for a number of years due to a medical condition. Game is 95% of our diet, the exception being when we eat out, which isn't very often. We use both lead and "non-toxic" shot and bullets, but would guess at least 3/4 are lead. The lead levels in her blood were considerably under the average for American adults.

Got a link?

I assume you are referring to the initial results of the ongoing University of Calgary Macaque study?

Awesome! Thanks 4 the study.


People with meat ( I. E. Food) have many problems.
People with out meat have but one.

As long as I do not die of liver cirrhosis .........I win.

I feed all my suspect trim to the dogs, they have a very short lifespan. Canines call me the candyman.

If I fed young children, Or pregnant women I would not be so flippant......or hunted out of Leadore Idaho.

It seem in a couple sentence you make some absolute statements with absolutely nothing to back them up.

Not everything is digested on the internet. I was listening on the radio. But you could google it, and decide for yourself.

Knew you would come thru John. Mine got lost on a old computer

The poster qualified this by stating blood inside the body cavity,not what leaks out.You need to reread that if confused

Saddlesore is like usual a very good source of information. The not opening the thoracic or abdominal cavity prior to removing the limbs back straps and exterior rib meat is a most practical way for optimum meat recovery with minimum chance of bacterial contamination.
IMO
On a side note I applaud saddlesore for his perhaps extraordinary paitience and tolerance in sharing his wealth of knowledge.

My bad, I thought you might have some information on the subject of your post that you could share. I, of course, did Google it, and didn't find any new information or studies about transmission of CWD to Humans. What I did find was a brief blurb about The initial results of a study where researchers were able to transmit CWD to some macaques over the course of 3 years by feeding them infected meat, and injecting prions directly into their brains. That really sucks.... for any macaques routinely munching on CWD deer carcases or getting shot in the head with CWD infected bullets.

What it doesn't show is any probability of transmission to Humans. In fact, in the over 30 years since CWD was discovered, there has never been a single documented case of transmission to Humans, test mice modified to have a human version of the affected protein.... Or even cows for that matter, even though an experiment in Wyoming kept cows locked in pens with infected cervids for 13 years straight.

Every expert opinion that I can find on the subject suggests caution with tainted animals, but concedes that the chances humans can even contract it
Is vanishingly small, not to mention the tiny infection rates associated with even theoretically transmissible prion diseases... But hey, you heard a blurb on the radio, so that's something.

Yeah, I noticed that millions of hunters have been keeling over dead from lead bullets used on game for the past 400 years, so I only use depleted uranium.

Very well said gt, but don't expect that to slow the zerk down.

Miles, you're making a lot of unsupported assumptions (more on that below) and you're asking the wrong question here. I've spent the last 35 years studying and cleaning up hazardous waste sites and documenting their impacts on human health. Some of which have lead contamination. I've worked on sites with documented impacts to children. The reason the standard is lower for children and women of child bearing age is the effect of lead on developing brains. It has nothing to do with "intake" except that children will incidentally ingest more lead from playing in contaminated soil and eating things that adults don't.

A couple of observations. The "red mist" from a prairie dog is visible because it's a liquid traveling through a gas (air). Inside an animal the bullet is a solid traveling through a combination of liquid, soilid tissue, and air. You can't just assume that they behave the same without some kind of evidence to back it up. In fact it's more logical to assume that they don't behave the same absent of evidence to the contrary.

Your second assumption is even more illogical. If blood inside the chest cavity was in fact "well-contaminated" and there was no way to avoid contaminating the meat when a hunter guts an animal then you would expect that lead to show up in people who consume the meat. But we don't see that. So it's more logical to assume that what you describe does not happen.

Once again I can't blame anyone for playing it safe by using copper bullets, it's not that big a deal. But that decision is not based on anything you can point to except caution.

I think that was it. I agree I am not al that worried. But I wouldn't eat a deer that was funny. What we don't know is how many deer hunters have ate deer with CWD. How apparrent is it? If you knew it had it, you wouldn't eat it.

I am not in a CWD area. I have read stuff here and there, and looked at few pics. But I really don't know how appearant it is, when a deer has it, and especially when full blown.

I find the m onkey study interesting, and worth noting, myself.

Adults should be able to discuss topics. It doesn't have to be you are stupid, because you want to hear about it.

As I said I am not all that worried., but I welcome discussion on it. I don't think it is an arguement, to say ya we been doing it and we are ok.

ildren
IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH INTAKE EXCEPT FOR THE FACT THAT ANY INTAKE HAS BEEN FOUND TO BE HARMFUL.

When you can explain the biochemical differences and how the lead acts differently on one to the other Perhaps I would give you five minutes. As it is, the is no difference. The difference is that the effect is more readily apparent in children, not that the effect s different in adults. Adults suffer the same symptoms,

Go look at the MnDNR Xrays of the sheep. To a point you are correct in that lead from disintegrating bullets does not travel the same way through muscle. The dynamic conditions of a bullet penetrating the chest of an animal and the introduction of air under the hide (demonstrated by the expansion of the hide outward from the body on both sides) is the means by which that lead n the Xrays gets dispersed. Go shoot a gallon jug full of water and measure the dispersion of the water all the way around the jug. The amount of water dispersed backwards in the direction from which the bullet came is pretty surprising. The same exact effect is visible to varying degrees with varmints depending on the hit, the bullet and the velocity. At those high velocities flesh and bone being largely water tends to act like water (surprise).

All of the studies I am aware of and have read include a substantial portion of shotgun pellet killed animals. Lead DOES react very differently at 600-800 FPS than it does at >2500 FPS. Even children learn very early on that the hard bits in their burgers are not to be eaten. The studies have not differentiated that lead that I have seen. <1000 FPS projectiles tend not to shed much if any weight in game. >2500 FPS projectiles do tend to do so and it tends to be in the 30-50 percent of initial weight range. Further, it tends also to be the very fine particulate that MnDNR found.

The MnDNR study was designed to inform us about the amount and nature of lead deposition in animals shot with typical hunting weapons, and is unique in that I know of no other so designed.

Lead is toxic in all forms. Lead in the body, particularly when it's a foreign body, may not produce damage because it is frequently walled off and isolated from the body. There is never any need for lead in the body. Why would someone willingly put a toxic substance into their body? Is the superiority of lead projectiles so marked that copper is ineffectual to any noticeable degree? Lead is not like substances that can be toxic at high levels, it is quite toxic at extremely low levels.. Lead accumulates, and it is not readily excreted.

Accepting any lead in your food is no different whatsoever that accepting that Jack In The Box solved their E Coli 0157:H7 problem by cooking the meat a little longer. Sooner or later it catches up with you. Same exact comparison. If they don't mix fecal matter with meat we don't get poisoned. If I don't put lead in my deer, I don't get poisoned. The meat industry put cows in feed lots and they do so for simple economic reasons. Wild game has virtually no 0157:H7 E Coli. Cows removed from a feedlot an put on grass have a reduction of 90% or more in fecal matter E Coli. Copper bullets perform as well or better than cup and core bullets at 300 yards and less. They cost a little more than they cheapest cup and cores and about the same as better cup and cores. There just isn't a good argument for me to put lead in my food. Not a difficult question at all.

Miles, using words like "biochemical differences" doesn't make your argument any stronger. The effects of serum lead are most certainly different in adults than children, that much is beyond dispute. If that was not true there wouldn't be different standards for children and women of child-bearing age. There are a multitude of substances that affect developing brains differently than adult brains, not only lead but THC and others.

And to make the blanket statement that "any intake is harmful" is just incorrect. Intake does not equal lead in the blood. Any detectable levels of lead in the blood of children and women of child-bearing age is what has been deemed harmful.



You need to bone up on your toxicology if you're going to provide opinions on the subject. Everyone willingly puts toxic substances into their body on a daily basis. The most extreme example is water, which is toxic in excessive amounts. It causes hyponatremia, which can be fatal. Alcohol is another good example. A glass of red wine is harmless but a half gallon of vodka can kill you. Other substances like selenium are nutrients in small doses (sold as over-the-counter supplements) and toxic in high doses. The list goes on. To get a deleterious effect you have to consider not only the substance, but the dose.

Exactly my point. Any argument about availability or current usage of mono bullets will be moot.

As much of a dunce as you appear to be, you'd be better off reading more, and posting way less.

Good points. Except the on on copper bullets working as well or better than traditional bullets. They simply don't and the multiple generations of Barnes bullets is evidence of this. The fact of the matter is monos kill slower than traditional bullets.

When I was a kid we used our teeth to bite the lead split shot closed on our fishing lines. We did that a lot. I've killed the vast majority of my game with lead core bullets. We eat primarily wild game. So far I've seen no ill effects and I'm pushing 70. Not saying it couldn't be a problem, but without a lot of real hard evidence it seems like a low priority item to worry about eating game killed with bullets containing lead.

I still do, there's no better way to clamp on a split shot.

How about debating the topic.

Are you arguing about those means of digesting it, or that lead isn't bad?

I hope we can agree, that lead is bad for children.

A variable for the people that say I am fine, is shot placement, type of bullet, speed, how it was butchered. Are certain of these variables more likely?


As for shotgun BBs. I suspect there have been kids and adults who have swallowed them and not realized it.

If you were feeding children, do you switch to copper to elimiante the .0001% chance, or do keep using lead to prove your point?

Poor parenting in this country has caused a heck of a lot more deaths than lead. Much of that poor parenting has caused lead to enter the body as a projectile. Thru out the last 50 years, the medical profession and media have published many articles proclaiming certain things were toxic. Most have now been debunked.

Millions of houses in the U.S. have been built with copper pipe, soldered together with lead based solder. I have yet to hear of one being re-plumbed to get rid of it

I am part of 5 generations that has consumed a lot of wild game taken with lead bullets. so far, I have not heard or read anything that proves the idea that game killed with lead projectiles is deadly. A lot of speculation,politics and supposition . It is not a point to keep using lead to prove a point.. It is to keep using it because actual science has shown there is no great threat.Yes copious amounts are toxic. Eating wild game from kills using lead bullets is not one of them

No, it is not lead in the blood that s the problem. It's the lead replacing calcium in the tissue of the nervous system. Lead in the blood is only the clinical measurement that allows a diagnosis.

When you or anyone else can explain how lead acts differently in the tissues of children and adults you'll have my ear. The effects can be worse, but the action is identical.

re: the Hyponatremia straw man: I saw it coming " Lead is not like substances that can be toxic at high levels, it is quite toxic at extremely low levels.. Lead accumulates, and it is not readily excreted."

Lead is toxic. Lead is always toxic. There is no benefit period to lead ingestion.

In logic this is called a straw man. No one here has posted it is deadly. Many have posted it is toxic. When I read diet pop was actually a neurotoxin I stopped using it. Within a month all the little pains I had were gone.

I'm arguing that it doesn't make sense to get too exercised about possible lead in game animals that were killed with lead core bullets unless there is substantial hard evidence to show that eating those animals is hazardous to your health. I don't see that hard evidence.

Gee, I wonder how that lead gets to the tissue in the nervous system?




DId anyone say lead is not toxic, or that there are benefits to eating it? I must have missed that.

I started loading my own in '56. I have always been pretty hard about testing everything loaded. I have killed somewhere close on fifty deer with monos and the people whose rifles I solved for monos and provided loads for have killed a like number. All of them but one were one shot kills, although a couple did get an unneeded second dose. NO head scratchers. NO bullets failures despite very high velocity hits at very short range (>3000 FPS <10 yards). No deflection off bone of note. I cannot produce that record with off the shelf factory ammo. I MIGHT be able to equal that with some of today's best cup and cores, but I don't see the likelihood of bettering it. I had one doe with a blown up heart and lungs mange 70 yards give or take. That was the longest run. I had a few (<5) that had worrisome blood trails. There were zero lost deer. Of what I killed, I would guess that about one third hit the ground where they stood or within6 feet and about a third managed 50 yards or so.

Considering that I know several of the others to be untrustworthy shots I think that is remarkable, The one really bad shot that did occur I managed to track down and kill, and that shot was solely on the shooter and wholly without excuse. Two gut shot deer needed recovery half a day later. One went less that 100 yards, one a coupe hundred or so. Both shot by the same person who shot the one I had to chase down.

As to your comment on multiple generations of Barnes bullets, I am the only one of the group to have used X and XLC bullets. I did not kill many with them, but I saw no difference between them and TSX/TTSXs. They shot as accurately, apparently expanded as the internal damage looked like they had and the deer all died promptly.

My experience is that they work at least as well or in many cases better. The worst I can say of monos is that they do have a pronounced capability to be much harder to get accuracy out of because they are very sensitive to seating depth and they are capable of extreme copper fouling in rare instance. Out of fifty some rifles all came down to an inch or less but for one. Probably close to half were comparable in difficulty to cup and core bullets work ups for similar accuracy. Several rifles produced very surprising accuracy seemingly without effort on my part.

I wish there were other bullets that were that consistently good.

That is true......

But there is also a point I didn't make clear in my first post in the thread. In the federal database that is recording deaths of wildlife because of lead toxicity, or wildlife with high lead levels (but cannot be determined if the lead levels were sufficient enough to be the cause of death) , there are a few ungulates--as in pronghorns, deer, and elk. Very few but it is there.

No, eating game meat killed with a lead core bullet is very unlikely to produce ill effects on us hunters, but consuming a game animal with already high levels of lead can be. Carnivores/scavengers are more likely to have lethal levels of lead in their system, and the data base was originally created for raptors. Birds tend to concentrate lead most of all. Explaining why that is, is out of my league.

Although the original OP was directed towards the effects of the lead core bullet we used to kill that individual animal, the question of using lead core bullets and it's cumulative effect on wildlife--and ultimately humans-- goes beyond the original question.

Casey

You can have more than one tool, in your toolbox. You can be a good parent, and be concerned about lead content.



The question I have, is why would you not use lead free? Are you concerned about effectiveness, or are you using lead to simply prove a point.

I agree with many, that I think the chance is small. What risk are you willing to accept? Is there a reason not to? Other than making a point.

Ya, I am not really disagreeing. But if you had a baby, what are the downsides of not using lead? Just your status here?

You're still here.


SMFH....

If you had someone you care about, the questions I would ask, are the copper bullets less effective, lessening your chance to kill. If not are they to expensive. If neither of these, and you had someone you care about, what would be the point not to?

Will you keep using lead, to prove, your grandchild or child, will turn out fine, cause it is all BS?

These questions should be easy to answer.

These questions are extremely easy to answer.

A little off subject, but In Colorado. it is best to worry more about mercury in fish and eating them that accrued lead in animals.What game animals that we hunt and eat would be in a class that have high levels of lead and how did they get it? As I understand it,Trinidad lake is about the only fishery in southern CO where the fish are considered totally clean.Sanchez Reservoir,one of the best pike fisheries in the state, is one of the worse. Fishermen are warned not to eat any fish out of that water.

Go back to my original response to this and I explained why I will not use them. I am not going to type the whole thing out again because you are not following the entire thread

Just feed the kids the archery meat.

Give grandpa the pheasants.

Feed the mistress the mono game.

And slurp the muzzleloader stuff yer own self.

And Catfish but once a week.

I have nothing against monometal bullets. I used .375 TSX's in Africa and they worked very well. I've used 150 grain TTSX bullets in my .308 on pigs and they worked great. I just loaded some 168 grain TTSX's for my 30-06 to use for elk although I think this year I'll use 200 grain Accubonds in my .338. as my primary rifle. I think both bullet types have their place. I'm just not ready to stop using lead core bullets because of a perceived health hazard until I see credible epidemiological studies that clearly demonstrate that hazard.

There are a lot of household chemicals that are very hazardous, probably more than the occasional possibility of eating lead from the game we kill, since all depends on how much lead-contaminated game meat one eats. Then one has to take into consideration that the chunks of lead are usually removed from the meat before one eats it, and that one does not eat game meat each day of the week, three times a day. Right? But if you read the MDS (MSDS) for every product you use in a daily basis a home, you will realize that we receive more exposure of such chemicals than to lead.

I use Barnes bullets simply because they work for me, not because I am afraid of lead contamination. But i don't mind at all jacketed bullets such as the 250-grain NOS partition for my .338, and so the 225-250-grain A-Frame.

I have read the entire thread. You are not the only one posting in this thread. Even though you say are not trying to prove a point, I tend think you are.

Someone in the family just had a baby. So I am going to put thought into this and read up. I tend to agree, that it is not an issue. But I may decide .0001% chance is to much. I am not going to go with the arguement I am fine

Agreed. But you can do more than one thing. You can wear a hard hat, and safety toes.

I agree. You should always wear a hard hat and steel-toes around the house when working with dangerous chemicals. And for you, a helmet when you go out in public.





Yep, well said. Plenty of stuff that can kill you outright with a single "exposure." If you start worrying about that stuff you'd never clean your oven or put gasoline in your car. Much less light the grill. I'd never criticize anyone for switching to copper bullets but I don't want anyone forcing their opinions on me.

And that's just what they are, opinions.

When we brought the baby to the new house almost 30 years ago I installed childproof closers and locks on the cabinet with the chemical cleaners. The older kids lived in some houses that didn't have them locked up as toddlers. Bad smell and safety caps are pretty effective deterrents for young children drinking bleach or window cleaner. Grandma serving you delicious elk biscuits and gravy doesn't have the same negative signals.

I didn't switch for health reasons and heartily agree the risk is small but I'm happy not to need to worry. I hate the state over regulating and telling me what to do as much as the next freedom loving citizen but occasionally they have a good point.

Brad, this is not aimed at you, or your comment. Just a opening for me to voice my opinion.

This far in & I've already decided that this is a ridiculous thread !

WTF - Really !

Yes, I guess so. We can also send the kids to the playground wearing a sumo wrestler suit too. That way they can be "safe" from head to toe when playing.

My point was you can do more then one safe act. If you protect yourself from A, you can also protect yourself from B. I guess hard hat and safety toes, went over your head.


I too don't want it being forced on me. I am anti government. I am probably not one you would think, would even take up this discussion. But I have for 2 reasons. Newborn in family, has me wantng to think about it. Plus I just think the arguement by most in this thread, are arguements in name only. Just because you sruvived playing in traffic, is no reason for someone else to do so. Safe practices don't have a quota or limit you have to stop at.


I am not cautious with chemicals as I should be. But I do wonder about all the cancer you are seeing these days. Is it more? Do we just here about it more, I don't know. But I do wonder about all the chemicals and preservatives we digest.


I certainly don't want government telling me what to do. But when times comes for baby to eat wild meat, maybe I will make sure it is a cut away from bullet. Maybe I will read up more. Probablem is don't trust either side. One side probably leans anti gun, and the other pro gun, and may not want to say lead is bad, or pro hunting, concerned with an restrictions coming from government.


Keep in mind lead exposure can make you stupid and aggressive, or lack control. So I think some arguements, are further diminished.

It think cuts and stiches, are not the same cateory as this. This is why this is probably not a good place to research this. Some people have ate to much wild game, and may not see the differences.

Good lawd....... they breed.

Well, over here we do here about it more but I'm not sure about they're.

Now that's funny.

People pick up grammar, when they do not have the ability to discuss the matter.

Unless you are so stupid, you can't figure out a typo. I ask, cause I really don't know.

I resent that remark. How dare you. What is the matter? Cause I really don't know. Either.

No gas in you are tank, for you two make a arguement .

No gas?

I'm passed that.

No, I really don't think you are.

I am sure someone will come along and say, you got it all wrong he is such a great guy. Sorta like leaving a turd out, to see who comes to eat the free meal.

In this metafore, Zerk ist he turd, rite?

Lke most of the analogies, this one too, is to much.

That's BS. I never leave turds out. I get paid a lot of money to crap in the porta johns. It's sorta like a reward.

You guys are getting too funny. Reminds me of one time long ago, maybe in this forum (?), where two guys were responding to each other in a funny way, but the funniest thing going were their names. One went by the name, "Farts," and the other, "Farts Loudly." Sometime later the forum moderator probably figured that the guy had managed to register twice using two different email addresses or something like that.

On the serious side, I would not worry too much about lead core versus all metal copper bullets. Just take the usual precautions such as cutting out the bullet hole thought the flesh, and removing any pieces of lead. And if you are still worried about pieces of lead you can't see, use a cheap metal detector. But as I said before, it makes no sense to worry too much about stuff like that, just be cautious about anything, including copper. Maybe long into the future when most bullets are made of copper someone will figure that hunters and shooters suffer from high exposures of copper, at which time a switch to 24KT gold bullets will take place (?).

~Just kidding with you.

A metal detector isn't going to pick up fine lead fragments.
Thus far I have read multiple people say they have been eating game meat for years and haven't been poisoned. It would take alot of lead to get lead poisoning, however that doesn't mean that each time you have consumed lead it didn't impair you. Same with with blood levels. Just because you have low blood levels in the present doesn't preclude you from having higher levels in the past.
It coukd be much ado about nothing, but until a definative study comes put I am being very picky on how and when I use lead bullets.

I am not concerned about lead poison for me. I am concerned about children. I thought that was the debate.

Perhaps you should be....

Where is Kawi when we need him?

Go back up a few pages and read there study that Muledeer posted. It can't be more definitive than that. Even when proof is shown, some folks won't believe it. They must be democrats

We just had an x-ray machine installed in the kitchen. There's so much metal out there, it's the only way we were going to feel safe.

You would be better off getting a taster, to make sure it is not poisoned.

Did you loose your job in the port-a-potty?

Someday you may grow some stones, and get sick of working indoors. I doubt it, but never know. Also carry a lunch pail and bring a thermo of coffee. Probabyly more then you could handle. But I hope I never go back in the office.

I load TTSX's for 7 calibers cause they shoot well and kill great....all I need to know....,keeping it simple.

That study tested blood levels, which is one indicator of exposure, but not of neurological damage that lead passing through your system causes.

[quote=BWalkerThat study tested blood levels, which is one indicator of exposure, but not of neurological damage that lead passing through your system causes.[/quote]

I thought the same thing when I read it. Some chemists can't think outside their fields so they miss things.

I thought the same thing when I read it. Some chemists can't think outside their fields so they miss things.
[/quote]

Seems to me IF you know that there is little or no lead in the blood, then the possibility of neurological damage isn't very likely. It is like saying you don't have a bullet hole in your body, but you are still going to die from lead. Sorry, but there is not enough evidence or positive studies that show eating game killed with lead bullets causes lead poisoning in the human body. In fact based on past history and evidence of the use of lead bullets for a hundred years +, it clearly shows the opposite.

I keep thinking back when eggs were considered very bad for cholesterol. Caffeine was bad and caused cancer, red wine was bad for you. All those have been debunked. Think of all the prescription drugs doctors reccomend and yet the side effects are worse than what they are suppose to cure. We put things in our body everyday that are not the best choices,but they don't kill us. My father worked in coal mines for 25+ years and had Black Lung and suffered strokes.He lived to be 93.My sister who never smoked,didn't drink died of cancer when she was 44. My DIL has just finished radiation treatment for breast cancer, she is about as straight as a person could be.There is a hell of a lot of things that a person could be worrying about in their life Using lead bullets is way down on that scale

Lead being a meat problem is exactly the same as CO2 destroying the earth.
Only those that are drinking the cool Aid believe this.

Presumably neurological damage requires threshold blood levels.

It might be time to move this thread to the optics forum.

Do it. For the children....

Seems to me IF you know that there is little or no lead in the blood, then the possibility of neurological damage isn't very likely. It is like saying you don't have a bullet hole in your body, but you are still going to die from lead. Sorry, but there is not enough evidence or positive studies that show eating game killed with lead bullets causes lead poisoning in the human body. In fact based on past history and evidence of the use of lead bullets for a hundred years +, it clearly shows the opposite.

I keep thinking back when eggs were considered very bad for cholesterol. Caffeine was bad and caused cancer, red wine was bad for you. All those have been debunked. Think of all the prescription drugs doctors reccomend and yet the side effects are worse than what they are suppose to cure. We put things in our body everyday that are not the best choices,but they don't kill us. My father worked in coal mines for 25+ years and had Black Lung and suffered strokes.He lived to be 93.My sister who never smoked,didn't drink died of cancer when she was 44. My DIL has just finished radiation treatment for breast cancer, she is about as straight as a person could be.There is a hell of a lot of things that a person could be worrying about in their life Using lead bullets is way down on that scale

[/quote]
Lead moves in and out of the system, so a blood test is just a snap shot in time and doesn't really tell you anything about the damage done. So for instance someone ate pain chips on a regular basis as a child. A blood test taken 20 years latter woukdnt tell you anything of value, because the exposure happened years before and the lead ingested them woukd have been excreted.

At the time of exposure.
A blood test also doesn't indicate how much lead is stored in your bones and soft tissues.

Quote [
At the time of exposure.
A blood test also doesn't indicate how much lead is stored in your bones and soft tissues.]

With all this dribble,you an others can dance around all you want, but you still have not offered any proof that eating game killed with lead bullets is bad for your health.We are not talking about eating lead base paint., chewing lead ingots or any other probabilities. In fact,I don't recall any studies or proof concerning pregnant women and children being harmed by eating game killed with lead bullets. Let's stick to that. The original question was: Have you switched to copper bullets do to health concerns? A few answered Yes. The majority answered No. and gave compelling reason why they didn't.

The research has really just started, so no there isn't definative proof. I'd rather not take the chance given I'm feeding young kids. YMMV.
And for the record I really dislike mono metal bullets and far from a tree hugger.

Have not switched but rather use both and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. When using lead core bullets the bloodshot meat goes to feed the scavenger critters.

I really like the Barnes TTSX and LRX but don't have loads for all my rifles for them and see little point in developing them when the leaded loads do so well. In one case (257 Roberts) I went from 100g TTSX to 110g AB, in others I have gone from leaded to TTSX and in still others I have stuck with whichever was developed first. And in some I shoot whichever grabs my fancy at the time.

Which works best for gut shots? You should know.

Seems to me IF you know that there is little or no lead in the blood, then the possibility of neurological damage isn't very likely. It is like saying you don't have a bullet hole in your body, but you are still going to die from lead. Sorry, but there is not enough evidence or positive studies that show eating game killed with lead bullets causes lead poisoning in the human body. In fact based on past history and evidence of the use of lead bullets for a hundred years +, it clearly shows the opposite.

I keep thinking back when eggs were considered very bad for cholesterol. Caffeine was bad and caused cancer, red wine was bad for you. All those have been debunked. Think of all the prescription drugs doctors reccomend and yet the side effects are worse than what they are suppose to cure. We put things in our body everyday that are not the best choices,but they don't kill us. My father worked in coal mines for 25+ years and had Black Lung and suffered strokes.He lived to be 93.My sister who never smoked,didn't drink died of cancer when she was 44. My DIL has just finished radiation treatment for breast cancer, she is about as straight as a person could be.There is a hell of a lot of things that a person could be worrying about in their life Using lead bullets is way down on that scale

[/quote]

I thought your other comment about the blood lead level was just plain stupid, but i just didn't know what stupid was. This one is better.

You believing all the hype is what is really stupid. If you claim to be so smart. Show me the proof. 6 pages and no one has. So far all I read is your ignorant BS. The phrase of "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull crap" comes to mind reading your childish sophomoric post.
People like you are the ones that are complained about on this forum.
Take your crap for brains and go find a forum that you can belittle people on because you sure as heck don't add anything to these discussions.

I avoid lead in my meat by making one shot kills.

I am really sorry you are too fugging stupid to understand the difference between a diagnostic and the pathology of a disease. Hint... A thermometer i a diagnostic tool. A blood test is a diagnostic tool. A thermometer will tell you you temperature is elevated and with other information may tell you something about why.. An elevated blood level tell you nothing about the acuteness of the poisoning. It will not tell you if you are shedding lead or accumulating it. It will not tell you anything about your body burden of lead. It will not tell you anything useful about the damage donenor the location of the damage. Even an elevated lead level absent other information is not necessarily cause for action.

I will say this though, you run your mouth well for not having a damn clue. Go learn something about lead poisoning and come back and we can talk.

Oh gawd no--it'll take on a whole new life...........


Casey

Partly because there's the danger of somebody bringing up the subject of lead in optical glass. Have heard from somebody that his cousin read a study claiming you have a good chance of going blind by looking through that stuff, especially at an eclipse of the sun.

I avoid lead by not letting my meat loaf.

Compelling? I don't think so. Just like the kid who ate lead based paint the effect were there. So all these folks who are defending eating lead shot meat are showing the effects with their posts.

Wrong John!

You get retarded by read stupid bleep through leaded glass.

The average hunter has more of a chance of dying from "climate change" than lead in big game. And "climate change" is a hoax!

Its not about being killed. It's about cognitively imparing your kids, wife, etc.

Guys used the same sort of arguments years ago about asbestos. We all know how that one turned out.

Guys raised concerns about eating egg yolks years ago. We all know how trat turned out.

I have enough real bullets on hand that even when they quit making them, I'll have enough to last a lifetime.

There is a lot that can go wrong before someone dies. Witness some of the posts here.

Out of curiosity, what is the toxicity level of copper or gilding metal in humans? Is it different in condors? After those who are successful in banning lead bullets 'for the health of our children' are successful I wonder if they will be inclined to find a new target.
I try not to ingest any more lead, copper (or other foreign substance) than necessary.

Right. Just like those exposed to asbestos "for years". Some die, but more end up screwed up to one degree or the other.

The gold detectors I use can pick a shotgun pellet in about 4" to 6" of meat.

Asbestos is a completely different material. While traces of lead can separate from a chunk of lead while traveling though flesh, asbestos does not. What the asbestos fiber does is to travel through flesh like a needle (for example), or travel in the blood stream after piercing though a blood vessel's wall, or just get stuck on the lungs and other body organs. Lead effects you central nervous system as a lot of poisons and other chemical compounds do.

By the way, it takes a long term exposure to asbestos (you have to ingest a lot of fibers for a long time such as the ship builder did during WWII). But a fiber here and there is not going to do much harm to you. According to some sources there has been a decline of asbestos-related death and sickness in recent years, but that may be because most of the people who got sick from it are already dead ? (who knows). There is a chance to ingest some asbestos fibers when you do heavy equipment brake work if you don't wear a respirator, or if you don't use the proper vacuum cleaner. Asbestos is still used in the brake lining of large trucks and heavy equipment.

The problem is many of the particles are so small and X ray doesn't even pic them up.

I had colleague of mine die of peritoneal mesothelioma at age 40. He was a upper level manager and never got out in the field much. Some guys can suck asbestos in their whole lives and not miss a beat. Others cant. As with lead I would rather not take my chances and I have been exposed to both for the last decade due to my job. I also have always taken every precaution to protect myself.
I would be very suprised if asbestos is still used in brake linings. With all the asbestos related litigation companies in industry steer very clear of anything with asbestos in it.

According to the teacher in my last Asbestos refresher class a month ago, asbestos is still used in clutches and the brake lining of of industrial heavy equipment such as graders, loaders, and so on.
http://www.asbestosnetwork.com/blog/2016/05/is-asbestos-use-legal-in-the-united-states.shtml

It's very possible to unknowingly breath asbestos fibers that separate from the spray-on asbestos insulation materials in the building once the fibers get in the ventilation system. The rules are very strict for schools and other public buildings, however.

By the way, copper is toxic to fish, so maybe we should switch to 14KT gold bullets

The company I last worked for would not allow any asbestos on site and we ran Cat dozers,scrapers,loaders, etc.
I'm sure some Chinese stuff still contains it, but it's been phased out for 20 years from most products.
When copper and fish toxicity are talked about its copper sulfate that's the toxin, not pure copper as found in bullets. Besides comparing copper tp a power neuro toxin like lead is silly.

Hey John, do you think it's a good time to discuss the risks associated with mercury levels in fish & seafood ?

That's where the real issue lies.



Buncha tinfoil hats !

Nah, all you need to do is smear sun screen on your eyeballs!

"Lead accumulates, and it is not readily excreted."

Not so sure I agree with that and I'll get back to this in a bit.

Since the age of eleven, I have hunted mostly deer, some birds and a few elk and all but five of the elk were killed with lead bullets, mostly cup and core type but 17 deer with home cast lead bullets in the 30-30. I was taught bullet casting early on starting at 16 doing it full time in my spare time. Probably averaged out 100+ cast for every jacketed bullets. Casting area was unventilated. In the mid 60's worked part time for a commercial bullet caster along with several others in a small unventilated room and two pot going per caster. One being used while the other was melting the next batch. Left that job in 1968 when I left California for good but continued casting until this dad. I'll hit my 8th Decade next year. Probably gorges on paint chips as a toddler too. Blood serum tests have always shown below average number lower than considered average for a person in my age group. A more thorough test showed me as being at the lower level of average for my age group.

Now I'll address this, "Lead accumulates, and it is not readily excreted." Certain juices are known to help in the removal of lead and other metals from the body. Orange juice is one and even when I was a kid I'd rather drink OJ than soda pop. Still do to this day. When I did the thorough test they asked what I was doing and they came to the conclusion it was the OJ that helped keeping lead levels down a bit. They also told me that any fruit juice with citric acid would work if you prefer lemonade or grapefruit juice.

The only rifle I've used a copper bullet in is my .35 Whelen and even that came about more by accident than anything else. Fantastic elk slayer. What little I've done with monometal bullets in a .257 Bob, three 7x57s and a .280 Remington have been dismal so far. Two to three inch groups do not float my boat. I'll play with what I have left and see if things improve. If so fine, if not, I never really planned to make the switch anyway. People been killing critters with lead bullet for over 400 years and I've never heard of people dropping from ingested lead. Methinks the greenie ecofreaks protesteth too much.

Those that wish to go to all copper because they feel it's safer for their children is fine with me. Guess it pays to try and be as safe as possible. All I will say is that my four kids ate a lot of venison and they are all but one doing just fine. The other one passed from stage four cancer which has nothing to do with lead toxicity.

Paul B.

I haven't read the whole thread but ...

Has there ever been a study of hunters and their families to test lead levels in people who eat a lot of game meat, and or birds, shot with lead?

Does anyone know of anybody who suffered from lead poising, in any degree, from lead bullets or shot?









FWIW, at my age I'm not worried about switching to a lead free diet.

Not to disagree with you, but asbestos is still used on the brake lining of industrial heavy equipment. CA tried to ban it in 1999, but I don't think that it succeeded. Look at the EPA list that was published or revised in 2016 for the products not banned:
https://www.epa.gov/asbestos/us-federal-bans-asbestos

In relation to copper/gold and fish, I was just having fun. That said, all metals can be harmful to fish and humans. All depends on the amount of ingestion.

The only article I have seen on the subject: https://www.rodalesorganiclife.com/food/lead-wild-game-meat

Apologies if this link has already been posted. Most of the other articles floating around have been based on the data cited in this one.

Just because they can use asbestos, doesn't mean they do. There are no active asbestos mines in the country, the liability is huge and like I mentioned Cat specifically hasn't used it for years.

BWalker, not trying to argue with you, but I hold two licenses, one for Asbestos abatement, and the other for lead paint. And no, I usually don't abate any of those materials, but it's a requirement at the place I work at. Asbestos mining is actively done on Canada and South Africa. Perhaps in your workplace asbestos shoes and pads aren't used. The problem is that not all brake shoes and pads are made in the US. Also, did you look at the EPA list of asbestos-containing products that are not banned? Did you notice "brake and clutch: linings"? Again that EPA report was revised or published in 2016

Again:
https://www.epa.gov/asbestos/us-federal-bans-asbestos
Examples of asbestos-containing products not banned
The manufacture, importation, processing and distribution in commerce of these products, as well as some others not listed, are not banned.
Cement corrugated sheet
Cement flat sheet
Clothing
Pipeline wrap
Roofing felt
Vinyl floor tile
Cement shingle
Millboard
Cement pipe
Automatic transmission components
Clutch facings
Friction materials
Disk brake pads
Drum brake linings
Brake blocks
Gaskets
Non-roofing coatings
Roof coatings
Top of Page[quote][/quote]

Again, just because it's allowed doesn't mean it's used. And asbestos hasn't been mined in Canada in at least five years.
There was a legal case maybe ten years ago where Cat, Honeywell and another company that slips my mind where sued over asbestos exposure. Cat testified in that suit that the discontinued asbestos in 1989 or there abouts. You can look it up if you like.
And I have been involved in abatement projects that coat over 10 million dollars.
The liability is simply too high for.companoes tp mess with it anymore given that there are alternatives.
The other thing is even back in the mid 70's asbestos wasn't that common. The last steam plant I worked at was built in 1974 and had very little while the plant next to it built in the early 60's had tons of it.

While the asbestos mine in Canada closed around 2012, asbestos in brake pads and shoes and the other "no-banned" products in the EPA list are to be banned in Canada by 2018. I have worked in the business of lead and asbestos abatement since 1995, and know very well that after a banning takes place, it takes a few years for the products to be faced out. Don't believe for a minuted that some floor tiles and other products that are on the EPA NOT banned list aren't imported to the USA and sold locally.

In relation to copper versus lead-containing bullets, at the moment it has been decided that copper is safer than lead. But it does not mean that in the future copper at certain levels will be considered safe. Thus my comments about metals such as gold that do not tarnish, in relation to copper which does.

The only thing one can do is to take the usual precautions relating to lead-containing bullets and lead in general. Just don't go out there and continue sucking chunks of lead, and remove the meat around the bullet hole or fragment. Also, if you shoot indoors all the time, make sure that the air in shooting facility is filtered in accordance to the EPA standards relating to indoors shooting ranges. The precautions are common sense stuff we have no need to argue about. In fact, if you are so concerned about lead versus copper and have no concerns about the foods in plastic containers you eat each day, or about the poisons you breath indoors, then there is nothing anybody can say.

My last comments on this subject just took place