Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire The Nurse Arrest: A Failure in Leadership

Does the cop exhibit ANY tendencies associated with a person inclined to listen to a reasonable offer to defuse the situation?

MILES58...

Thanks for that thoughtful post, and your kind words about yours truly. As more information has extruded from this mess in Utah, the issues have become clearer and clearer. As I said i suspected on social media the day the video went viral, there was a lot more back story that has since come to light. In my meeting with my own hospital administrator yesterday I learned that this incident has been burning up the administrators' private discussion groups as well, which isn't much of a surprise. Much detail about the back story will not come out in public, it appears, at least not until/unless there is a public inquiry, and even then it may stay under wraps.

To speak to one of your points: first, the nurse would probably not face disciplinary action even if she had stood aside, for much the same reason as I explained in my post 2 days ago. She had other obligations that were higher and more pressing than providing security in this situation. Hospital security failed in their job here, although I'm not sure even they can be expected to do much, as non-sworn personnel, in the face of a sworn officer bent on an illegal search/seizure.

I appreciated denton's comment about his local hospital, where they have a police substation adjacent to to the ER. I have written about the appalling lack of real "security" in American emergency departments in my blog, as have other physicians. The situation is a real nightmare waiting to happen. The Utah incident is a bizarre and atypical illustration of just how vulnerable our hospitals are, and if something isn't done soon we are going to see a real tragedy take place, and sooner rather than later.

Back story? What's since come to light and what's this super secret back story you're referring to.

Cited from: http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/09/...-fired-from-his-part-time-paramedic-job/


"Payne was hired at Gold Cross as a full-time emergency medical technician in 1983, later becoming a paramedic, Moffitt said. He eventually became a police officer and continued on with the paramedic job part time.

Moffitt (who's the current President of Gold Cross) said he worked alongside Payne in the 1980s, sometimes in the same ambulance.
“I know him as well as any co-worker you spend 30 years with,” Moffitt said.

He called Payne’s behavior in the body camera footage ”uncharacteristic” of his former colleague. ”I’ve never seen anything like that from him, nor had any reason to believe that was something that was possible,” Moffitt said.

You are kicking Steelhead's azz for searchability.

Hospital public safety services that were present comprised of UOU sworn officers.

https://dps.utah.edu/police-services/

" The Patrol Division is made up of 27 full time sworn police officers and 1 reserve police officer. The full time personnel include
1 Lieutenant, 3 Sergeants and 23 Patrol Officers. As part of our responsibility patrol provides 1 officer 24 hours a day at the UMC
Emergency Department to provide a police presence and assist as needed"


https://dps.utah.edu/security-services/

" The security component of the University of Utah - Department of Public Safety is broken up into two division,
Hospital and Main Campus. Both Divisions are managed by a Lieutenant ".....

"The Campus Security Division works closely with the University Police to coordinate personal safety and property protection
throughout campus..."


Names and Titles of UOU public safety service personnel:

http://people.utah.edu/uWho/basic.hml?did=240


Wubbels, told The Associated Press on Friday that she was grateful for support from her supervisors and hospital staff
but disappointed she was left to defend herself with no help from university police.

“This cop bullied me. He bullied me to the utmost extreme, and nobody stood in his way. And that should have originally
been the job of security and the university police,” Wubbels said.

It's super secret squirrel stuff that regular folks can't understand that makes his theory make sense, even though it may not appear to make any sense.

The folks that continue to say "Oh, we know our cops, been around em for years, they'd *never* do anything like that", sound amazingly like the folks that say: Oh, we know our pitbull, been around em for years, they'd *never* do anything like that."

Hard to believe this was his first episode of being an a$$hole. I wonder how many cases he worked where the evidence he collected will be suspect to its legality.

What is it with senior LEOs in the twilight of their careers stepping on their dick...

If this was a fight the ref would have called it in favor of the nurse, pages ago.

he cant get the words out, but the words are..." Blue EGOS matter"

Strap on night again for you?

Having been a nursing administrator in the past, and having worked ER for 10 year. now as a Nurse Practitioner. I can tell you it is not uncommon for LEO to storm in and be much the same as the officer in question. They believe hippa and emtala does not apply to them. Unfortunately it does. . Of course known many very wonderful LEO who were much different also. I typically am very pro law enforcement. Not today though.

The nurse was in no way in the wrong. The hospital policy was absolutely correct and in accordance with updated laws. That's already been determined hasn't it? The policy should have references and case numbers to support itself. Ours do. The officer did not have any legal right or obligation to obtain this innocent mans blood, nor does he have the legal power given to him to over ride this mans constitutional rights. I believe what the officer did was a complete abuse of his power, and is actually called battery when he attacked her out of anger. That wasn't an arrest it was retaliation. They were just hoping he would pop positive for something cause otherwise they are getting sued and will have to pay for the whole hospitalization and all care related to it in the future. Think 7 digits cost.

Cop should be fired and face criminal charges.

As a nurse your first duty is to be a advocate for you patient and to protect them from harm. Anybody complaining about her should hope they don't end up in the same situation with a weaker nurse.

The truck driver was not under arrest.
Cop had no warrant and could not get one because he had no probable cause.
The driver being unconscious meant he could not give consent.
The nurse was right on ALL 3 reasons.
The guy that wrote that article just added a 4th reason that the cop was wrong and the nurse was right.

Some folks just can't bring themselves to accept the fact that cops, just like every other CITIZEN can, and do, engage in actions which are totally indefensible.

So...... they try shifting the blame, bringing irrelevant points, and all the other strategies usually employed by leftists.

..and the fifth reason, the hospital and the SLC PD had an official agreement/contract that they would follow the Utah law and the SC Ruling and not allow any blood to be drawn without a warrant, PC or consent.

Very good point!

Well, since you seem to be clearly very much up-to-date on the story, you've no doubt heard by now that this standoff had been going on for over 2 hours before the video starts. And since I'm sure you read my OP pretty carefully, you'll know that my big question as applies to this thread is the failure of leadership on the part of the hospital and the police agencies involved, so this 2-hour delay with no real persons of authority on the scene is a significant negative finding about this case. But you knew that, right?

No doubt you'll also have learned by now that the arresting cop seems to be a good-hearted guy who works extra hard both in LE and as an EMT, and he's apparently a real stickler for following orders from his superiors, not the kind of guy who takes matters into his own hands, and not the sort of guy one would normally think of as a jack-booted thug. So again, this highlights the glaring failure of his superior(s) to act appropriately, to exercise real leadership, which again speaks to the issues discussed in the OP. But you knew that, right?

No doubt you have already learned by now that there are at least 3 separate investigations into this incident, and at least one of these are looking at a longstanding history of conflict between police agencies in Salt Lake City with hospitals, and this particular hospital especially. The fact that these conflicts have been ongoing for YEARS in this locale and have yet to be corrected suggests that the failure of leadership in that hospital and those LEA's is endemic and may require Draconian measures to clean it up.You knew about that, too, right?

When I wrote my post Monday night none of the above details had made the news yet, at least not that I've heard. And when I met with my administrative group on Tuesday morning, this and other details were discussed that were not part of the public record. Some of those details have since come to light, and some (specific cases affecting patients from the past history of this hospital with LE in SLC) will never come out into public view because they are covered by HIPAA and EMTALA and other confidentiality laws that I am sworn not to violate.

So if by adhering to my ethical obligation to not violate HIPAA and EMTALA I have offended you, by alluding to "super secret" stuff that you have no right to know and I have no right to tell you, then carry on being offended.

But it seems you scamps have your teeth fastened down hard on the Bad Cops Are Always Bad narrative, and the Ol' Doc Is Always A Defender of Evil Cops narrative, despite the fact that I started this thread to try to stimulate a discussion to look critically at the situation more broadly and deeply, with a view to finding a way to prevent such insanity in the future. I'm not really surprised that you chaps are stuck at the elementary level, like the sheep in Animal Farm bleating "four legs good, two legs bad" without cease.

If you think the cop in this case was all bad all the time, evil incarnate, etc, you are a damned fool. If you think the nurse in this case was all good all the time, a faultless angel of mercy, etc, you are equally a damned fool.

I gleaned virtually all the useful information from this thread that I needed by about Page 6. I should have left the thread then, but a couple of folks PM'd me to ask me to address specific posts, which I did. As I stated in my post Monday night, I believe that the subtleties of this incident are a bit too complex for many here. I expect you folks will carry on as you please, and please do. But I have learned all I can from this thread, so good day to you. Carry on.

Yup, he screwed up. Bad. Fire him, charge him criminally, sue him and his supervisor for the Title 1983 violation, and order the entire PD, with emphasis on Command Staff, to attend current law training, make them sign that they full understand the laws.

Also, that PD needs a top-down review of personnel and policies. Start with firing the Chief, replacing him with an outsider who knows and understands Constitutional law, and hold his feet to the fire. Then, require all Command and Supervisory staff, all the way from the Chief down to the newest Sergeant and Clerk Supervisor to attend ethics training . NO exceptions!. Make them sign for that, too.

Once the Command and Supervisory staff have had their law & ethics training, make every person in the department attend and sign for the same training. Command and Supervisory staff MUST get this training first before any street level officers and civilian employees. I have first hand experience at what happens when only the grunts get ethics training and none of the Command staff do. It's disgusting, demoralizing, and destructive to the personnel and to the community.

THEN...make every supervisor and commander attend leadership training. Every new supervisor should get the same training before ever taking on that role. If you're promoted, you don't get to put on those stripes until you get the training.

For the citizens, this is going to cost money that most likely isn't in the budget, but it will be an expense that will pay out huge dividends with the way the citizenry are treated and the relationships between the police and the public.

Remember, the LE agency in your community is YOUR agency. YOU have the right and responsibility to have and keep the type LE agency you want. Bitching, moaning, and pissing about the LEO's in your area won't do a damned thing without YOUR pressure on YOUR LE agency.

It's a personal responsibility thing. You are personally responsible for changing things, not "someone else".

Off my soapbox now...

Ed

P.S. My comments about being personally responsible are not aimed at curdog4570. He is already responsible for pissing off enough politicians, lawyers, and cops.

It's a thankless job, but one for which I am uniquely- via xperience- qualified. 😀😀😀