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Amen.

Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

Note, those who crucified Him will see Him return.

And remember, He gave Israel to the Jews FOREVER. It will be theirs in 100,000 years.

Will there be real Heaven on Earth?

When the Jews crucified the Messiah, they lost their land and blessing forever.


Deut 30:15-20


15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Romans 11King James Version (KJV)

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

What absolute rubbish. The Jews didn't crucify Jesus. The Romans did. The Roman government worked closely with the Jewish "deep state" of those times to eliminate a threat, as they saw it, to the whole system. The great mass of Jews had nothing to do with the crucifiction.

Three hundred years later the Roman Emperor decided he could use Jesus as a symbol to win a civil war and made Christianity the state religion. Those who didn't go along were put to death. Since it would have been embarrassing to blame the Empire for Jesus's death, the Romans promulgated the story that the Jews did it. Easy to sell that narrative to ignoramuses who can't read very well.

God said His blessing on us would remain until we turned away from Him as we have done and are seeing the
consequences of it. Their eyes are blinded and we have men using the womens room and marfying men and those pukes are in our government.

He did not give requirements or conditions when He gave them Israel forever. He didnt say they wouldnt be punished or die. He said He gave Israel to them forever. It will be theirs forever.

He also said all of Israel would be saved. They will be. He also said those who reject His son would not be saved. How is this?
Simple, He speaks physically and He speaks spiritually. There is the physical Israel and there is the spiritual Israel. Those Jews who reject Christ will not be saved, as He says, and those, Jews or Gentiles, who worship and believe on Christ are His Israel who will be saved.

Man did you miss that one. Yes, the Romans did the act, but Pilate wanted to release him. He found no guilt in Jesus. The Jews brought in liars to give false testimony and then incited the Jewish people against him. Pilate's job was to keep the peace and he crucified Jesus to avoid a riot. Pilate was a pawn of the Jewish leadership. That's all in the Bible written well before Constantine, most of it before the fall of Jerusalem. The Jews paid the price 40 years later when God sent in Titus to destroy Israel and disperse them throughout the empire.
Open your eyes to the truth. You're blind to the salvation that's right in front of you, free for the asking.

And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.


Its amazing how so many have had their eyes darkened to the truth and do not believe in the fact they have a spirit. It reminds me of the progressives who are blinded to the point of thinking they had to stop Trump in order to save the US.

Yep, those who reject Him are of course much smarter than you, RC or I, as are Muellers buds on the FBI.

We await the redemption of our bodies, namely our soul at the transfiguration.

Acts 2:5; 36

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Don’t read the Bible much do ya?

if the Jewish leaders had not brought false charges against Jesus, Rome would have cared nothing about Jesus.
In fact, Pilate was politically pressured to do so.
With a few blunders that he had made, he certainly didn't need another bad report.

Its complicated.

First of all, John 10:17-18......Jesus plainly said that no one could take his life, but that he would lay it down, and pick it up again. Men can't kill God. The crucifixion was part of God's plan of salvation and it came through the Jewish nation to fulfill prophecy....John 4:22. Far as I am concerned, we all had our part in driving the nails.

Secondly, you have to step back and see that the Bible is a Jewish book. Every single word of it was written by "the Jews". Jesus was a Jew. His disciples were Jews. His enemies were Jews. Jesus fulfilled both the Jewish law and the Jewish prophets. As a Christian, I feel that I have a Jewish heritage....a "grafted in branch" as Paul said. It is true that the Jewish leaders of the day, tagged by Indy as the "deep state" conspired with the Romans to kill Jesus but it is equally true that Jews spread his Gospel to the world. The first Christians were Jews. Damning all Jews as "Christ killers" don't make a whole hell of a lot of sense when you look at it objectively.

At the time of Jesus's days on earth, there was a great rift in Judaism. The Pharisees were going the route of Rabbinic or Talmudic Judaism, they were like "liberals", the Sadducees held more to the Torah, they were like "conservatives". When the Romans destroyed the temple in 70 AD, they had a problem. They got together (the sons and grandsons of the men who conspired against Jesus) a tried to figure out how they were going to hold the thing together. They went all the way with the Talmudic version which still exists to this day. Jewish believers in Jesus went the other.

When Constantine and the Romans took over Christianity, they introduced a lot of anti-Semitism into it, ignoring its Jewish roots. It goes on to this day. Like all forms of bigotry, I don't think it is particularly sophisticated. Early Gentile Christians, did not hate Jews, on the contrary, some of them in their zeal wanted to become Jews and Paul had to straighten them out....see the book of Galatians.

Anyway, I take Paul at his word and do not "boast against the branch". As I understand it, Messianic Judaism (Jews who accept Jesus as their Messiah) is growing rapidly, so we may be witnessing the infancy of Paul's vision in Romans 11 unfolding today.

Jesus was “identified “ as a Jew but of Jewish heritage he was not.
He was and is God!!

There is absolutely no human heritage in Him.

You might have missed this part.
Luke 1:26-38

Matthew 21 clears this up pretty well.

"But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

Jesus may not have been related to his earthly father but he was to Mary and she was a Jew.
If he didn’t have earthly blood then he was never man. The incarnation was god becoming man.
Jesus was Jewish. He was circumcised at the appropriate time and way. He was raised in a Jewish home he Taught from the Jewish scriptures as a rabbi. So he was very Jewish.

Matthew 21:45 indeed clears it up because it tells to whom Jesus was speaking those words...

When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them.

Ok then, let’s get scientific here a sec.
where does the blood cell come from? Male or female?
If it comes from the male (which it does) then that means Jesus had absolutely zero Jewish blood in Him.
Does it not?
Babies do not in any way get there heritage blood from their mother, father only, the mother supplies the egg only.
Father supplies the heritage blood.

He was adopted by Joseph and raised as his son. Under Bibllical law, that makes him a Jew.

The nation to whom they belong. Not just about them as individuals.

If I spoke somewhat cryptically about black folks, and there were some black folks in the audience who understood that I was speaking about them, this wouldn't mean that they understood only that I was speaking about them as individuals.

The parable speaks of giving the kingdom to another nation, i.e., a nation other than the one to which those chief priests and Pharisees belonged.

If you read your New Testament, you'd know that the other nation referred to is that made up of those who, regardless of race or ethnicity, accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, and who believe that he died for their sins and who rose again bodily from the dead, and you'd understand that the nation the kingdom was taken from was that of the Jews.

And his biological mother was, of course, a Jew, in the sense that the term meant at that time.

Today, Jew means someone 1) claiming a special privilege before God stemming from physical descent from Abraham, 2) who rejects Jesus, and 3) who considers the Talmud to be a collection of sacred texts. In other words, Jew today means something quite different than it commonly meant when Mary was born and raised as a Jew, and is more correctly termed Rabbinical and/or Talmudic Jew, which essentially amounts to what Christ would have referred to as a Pharisaical Jew, implying a profound and demonic unfaithfulness to divinely delivered Sacred Scripture, the Patriarchs, and the Prophets.

Matthew 1:1....This is the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah "THE SON OF DAVID, THE SON OF ABRAHAM:"

Matthew then goes in great detail to describe the lineage of Jesus all the way back to Abraham 42 generations. Its there for a reason.

All those folks doing all that begatting sure had a bunch of Jewish sounding names.

The Talmud was written over several centuries after the fall of Jerusalem. They had failed to keep the law because God didn't intend it to be be kept outside of Jesus. So, they sat down and tried to interpret it themselves without Jesus. That was impossible. Their interpretation got pretty far fetched, in some cases to the point of nonsense.

Sure, it is that, but it's also the later codification of the Pharisaical/Rabbinical oral traditions condemned by Jesus, which he referred to as the doctrines of men. What we know today as Judaism is essentially the offspring of precisely what Christ condemned in the Pharisees. The Pharisees basically took over charge of those Jews who rejected Christ, and manufactured a new religion after the fall of the Temple.

Stop trying to reason it out. Let the scriptures tell you the truth.
John 1:14King James Version (KJV)

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


Romans 1:3King James Version (KJV)

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;


Jesus is indeed Jewish,and also a flesh and blood man,and the Son of God, and the Word of God,and indeed God. The Father,Son and Holy Spirit,are one,yet are also separate,though "separate" is not the best word to describe an individual of the Trinity. When I say separate I simply mean Jesus wasn't talking to himself when he prayed,or throwing his voice when the Father spoke to him from Heaven,as I have heard some foolishly say.

Back to the subject though,Jesus is a Jew and Jesus is a man. God had to become man so that a man could pay the price for man's transgression against God. Such an awesome plan though that only God could conceive it.Just any man could not pay the redemption price for all mankind though, because any normal man would simply have paid for his own sins,and his life would have only been worth the price of his debt. God however,became a man,and as a man paid the price of redemption for all men. God's life being priceless beyond compare,and without a single sin debt of his own,was a price that would be worthy to pay for the sin of every human ever born. All we need do is to accept God's gift of payment for us.

The old term 'blood', referring to lineage, was adopted millenia before DNA was discovered. We now know that DNA determines heritage, not the blood. It's heritage that they were after, not the red stuff. Jesus had Mary's DNA which made him a Jew plus he had the adoption by Joseph which under the Law also made him a Jew.

Geez you people are blind.

We're not blind. You're disparately struggling to prove that Jesus isn't what the Bible says he is. He was Jewish both genetically and by adoption.

He was and is God in human flesh!!
Period
The Bible tells you that.

Yes it does. But, that human flesh happened to be Jewish. God chose the Jews as his own for reasons that I can't explain. He protected them, punished them, gave the law through them, and sent his son through them. Yet they rejected him and killed him
God will deal with the Jews in his own time and in his own way. For the rest of us, it's hands off. They're God's meat, not ours. In the end, they'll come to know the messiah and will send out 144,000 of the greatest missionaries the world has ever seen.

God dealt with the Jews in AD 70 with the final solution. . . Utter destruction and annihilation. The temple, the priesthood, the genealogy of the 12 tribes . . . everything associated with the Mosaic economy . . . never to rise again. The "Israel of God" now is the church . . . there is neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor free, male nor female, for we are all one in Christ Jesus.


Gal 3:26-29
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

So what ethnicity is God?

Maybe all,since God made man in his image and likeness and from that first man,all races have developed,but Jesus is Jewish,LOL

All should be concerned with one thing. Not any know when the harvest comes, as each should be prepared.

אלוהים מגיע כשאתה הכי פחות מצפה

So God can be killed, cool.

Only when he becomes a man for the purpose of dying. Ain't that neat?

You have much faith, more so than many.

Let me through a monkey wrench into this thread and introduce another passage that contains the answer to this riddle.


Mt 5:17-18

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1. Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets (Old Testament Prophesy)
2. But "Heaven and Earth" must pass before one jot or tittle of the law (Mosaic Law of the Jews) can pass away.
3. Is the Old Testament Law of Moses still in force and unfulfilled, or has "Heaven and Earth" passed and all Old Testament prophecy has been fulfilled? Can't have it both ways. It is an either or!

I think you are looking at it wrong because of language differences. The way I interpret the passage is that Jesus is saying that the law is as strong as the Heaven and earth,and that just as long as the heavens and earth stand the law will stand till all be fulfilled. It's the "till all be fulfilled" part that we need deal with.

Jesus fulfilled all the law. He fulfilled it by keeping it. Jesus was the only man ever without sin ,so the only man ever to keep all the law. That old covenant of law is done away with now and we are under the new covenant of grace. I can provide scriptures that speak of the law being done away with and replaced by grace if you aren't familiar with them.

Naw,just the same measure dealt to every man born again.
Romans 12:3King James Version (KJV)

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

dna comes from each parent.
mitochondrial dna comes from the Mom.

when you speak of bloodline is not really about "blood" it is about dna and inherited human characteristics.

That's pretty much what I was saying earlier. DNA was discovered in the 50's when Watson and Crick put together their famous helical DNA model. For millenia before that, it was thought that the blood carried genetic lines. The Bible says that life is in the blood and that was thought to mean inheritance, not just the breathed oxygen so necessary to animal life.
It would be very interesting to know what Jesus' DNA was like. There are some who believe that the Holy Spirit implanted a complete fertilized egg in Mary so his DNA wasn't 'contaminated' by human DNA. However, the Bible refers to her continually as his mother and that makes him human, not a completely spiritual being. He also constantly called himself the son of man, descended from humans and with human DNA.

RH . . . The second coming of Jesus (the judgment) is prophesied in the Old Testament Scripture. If Jesus has not yet fulfilled that second coming, then the entire law of Moses is still in effect. If not, why not?

Why do you think the law of Moses is tied to the second coming and still in effect?

Hebrews 8 pretty much outlines the removal of the old covenant and establishing of the new,Jesus serving as the new high priest. Hebrews 10 also speaks of Jesus as the high priest. Verse 9 of Heb.10 speaks of taking away the first covenant to establish the second.

There are many things you need to understand about the old covenant and if you understood those things you would know that it has to be done away with. Under that covenant you could not have received the Holy Spirit. It's all outlined in the book of Hebrews.

My point is this . . . The second coming of Christ in judgment is prophesied in the Old Testament. Many today believe the second coming of Christ (in judgment) is still future. If that is the case, then the entire Old Testament prophecy is not yet fulfilled, and thus not one jot or one tittle has passed from the Mosaic Law, and the so-called Jews in modern day Israel are justified in attempting to keep the Law.

But, we know from Mt 5:17 that Jesus came to fulfill the Law, and replace it with his Gospel, the Law of Christ. But before the Old Law could be done away with, it had to be totally fulfilled, including the second coming of Christ in judgment, which he did in AD 70 when he returned in judgment on Israel and Jerusalem, and totally obliterated the physical vestures of the Mosaic economy (ie. the Temple, the genealogical documents of the tribe of Levi which set the official Mosaic priesthood, the Arc of the Covenant, the table of show bread, Aaron's budding rod, etc.)

Also, let me comment on Heb 8:13

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews was written shortly before AD70. Note the author says the old law was "ready to vanish away," which it would in its entirety at the fall of Jerusalem in AD70.

I don't take Matthew 5 to mean that all the OT prophesy has to be fulfilled,just what Jesus said that the law would not pass away until the law be fulfilled. Jesus certainly fulfilled the law. I do not think the second coming has been yet. When it is I expect to meet him in the clouds,alive or dead, and ever be with the Lord just as Thess.says.

If Jesus was Jewish then the dead rise not.

Jesus never referred to Mary as mother, He called her woman.
She was purely an incubator the Holy Ghost overshadowed her and created both egg and sperm in her womb making Him God dwelling in human flesh.
How else was He to get here on earth to fufill the prophecies from 700 years prior?
If you put Mary or Joseph’s blood into the mix than your saying He’s half God and half man....dont you see how rediculous that sounds when God sent His only begotten son to give his (Gods own) blood for our sins and salvation?
Human (man) had zero part in my redemption.

And Jesus did away with the old laws when He died on the cross, they are not needed now.

You are still disputing the Bible,not just me. You keep forgetting.
Romans 1:3King James Version (KJV)

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

You also have to understand that Jesus is both God and man. He often referred to himself as the Son of Man. You can find it all through the Gospels. You have to understand that man had to pay the price for man's sin,otherwise it wouldn't be valid. Man sinned ,so man had to pay. God however paid by becoming man. It was the only way man could pay.

You just want to keep holding on to your beliefs though though they aren't based on scripture at all.

Clark and Tom are correct. Once Jesus shed 1 drop of blood it covered generations of past as well as future sins. We live a life of freedom from fear and condemnation bought at the cross. He made it so simple...saved by grace through faith. One really has to try hard to mess salvation up. The old testament was given as a teacher but the new testament was given for a new life in him. powdr

Lo there do I see my father
Lo there do I see my mother and my sisters and my brothers
Lo there do I see the line of my people, back to the beginning
Lo, they do call me, they bid me take my place among them, in the halls of Valhalla
Where the brave may live forever.

Its very interesting that One Timothy 2:5 it says that "there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus."

The Thirteenth Warrior was a pretty good movie.

OK, here is the scriptural reference . . . Jn 19:25-27

25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.

26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.



But this is beyond the pale . . . where is your scriptural evidence that backs up this claim?

Tom, have you ever considered that the Gospel and the Old Law ran parallel for the 40 years between the cross and AD 70? . . . Sort of a transition period until the Gospel could be preach throughout the world?

Never

Here is an interesting take on the "resurrection."

2 Tim 2:15-18

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.


Question: If the resurrection in the New Testament refers to the simultaneous 1) coming of Christ in the clouds, 2) on the day of judgment, 3) the end of time, 4) the burning up of the sun, moon, and stars, and 5) the resurrection of all the dead of all people from the beginning of Adam and Eve, to be 6) judged by Christ, sitting on the throne of judgment, separating the good from the evil, like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats . . . then how could the faith of some be over thrown simply by Hymenaeus and Philetus saying that "the resurrection is past already?" How could these people possibly believe "the resurrection is past already" if all of these visible and astonishing things were to happen in front of their very eyes? Is it possible that many of us today do not understand what was the Resurrection of the New Testament?

I contend the "Resurrection" mentioned in the New Testament is the resurrection of Israel form "spiritual death" and the transformation of God's people from the fleshly Israel to the " Spiritual Israel" which was fulfillment of the promise made to Abraham, and it occurred in 70 AD with the physical annihilation of the earthly vestiges of the Mosaic economy.

It’s called revelation.

during that time, Paul taught that the old covenant was gone and the new had arrived. The changeover was at the resurrection.

I tell you what I think is funny, a bunch of us arguing over what and who Jesus is,as if any of us could define him. He is the Alpha and Omega,The first and the Last, The one who was dead and lives again, God, Savior, Emanuel,Messiah, The Rose of Sharon, The Lion of the Tribe of Judah, The lamb of God,The Holy one of Israel, Prince of Peace,The Great I Am,The Bridegroom,The Vine,The Word of God, The image of the Invisible God. By him all things were created that are in Heaven and in earth,visible,and invisible,whether they be thrones,or dominions,or principalities,or powers,all things were created by him,and by him all things consist.

Yet we want to argue about who he is.

RH, I hope our discussions about Jesus, which are Spiritually based, are not considered arguing by non-believers, especially at this season of the year. I enjoy discussing the Bible, and hearing what others think.

Those two passages I listed and discussed . . . Mt 5:17-18 and 2 Tim 2:15-18 still have quite a bit of meat on them, and are difficult passages for Amillennials (traditional belief in a future coming of Christ)

I don't have any problem with you my friend. I like discussing things too. I've only met one other person who believed like you do (perhaps) as I'm not sure I have it all completely straight (your beliefs that is).

Personally,I don't have any problem with those passages since I see Christ as having fulfilled all the law of Moses,and so then,the law can pass away,and indeed has. It has been replaced with a much better system though,The Law,of the Spirit of life,in Christ Jesus. I don't need a law for indeed I have the very Spirit of God to lead and guide me in every area. It's the listening part that I need work on.LOL

My friend as long as you trust in Jesus Christ and in him alone for your salvation,everything else is much less important,and though very interesting and worthy of debate,never to be argued over or divided because of.

First of all, John 10:17-18......Jesus plainly said that no one could take his life, but that he would lay it down, and pick it up again. Men can't kill God. The crucifixion was part of God's plan of salvation and it came through the Jewish nation to fulfill prophecy....John 4:22. Far as I am concerned, we all had our part in driving the nails.

This^^^^. Every time we reject Him and His Word, we are those who persecute Him and cause Him pain by essentially taking part in driving a nail.

Jesus is fully God AND fully human. His human part is ethnically Jew given His human lineage.

His sacrifice was for all, but that didn't hit me as hard as when I realized that it was for ME!

If every single other person on earth, from the time of his death on the cross until this very minute had rejected his sacrifice except me, He'd have done it anyway.

That's what brought me to my knees.

Glory to God in the Highest!!!!!!

This.

Also: Arianism. Docetism. Heresies that have been around for 1800 years or so? Something to consider anyway...

This, and Amen, RH.

This, and Amen, RH.



Amen and PTL. Well said.

And much knowledge, RH, and thanks for imparting it.

And every eye shall see him return in that cloud of glory, even those who pierced him.

Seems legit.

So here is my question . . . if this passage is literal, and every person on earth was to actually see Christ coming in the clouds of glory, with their own eyes, simultaneously, and that the resurrection of all the dead who had ever lived on earth, all the way from Adam and Eve to the day of Christ coming in the clouds, . . . . then how were these people over in 2 Tim 2 having their faith overthrown by Hymenaeus and Philetus claiming the resurrection was past? If every eye was to literally "see Christ return in the clouds of glory" someone claiming this had already happened would be laughed to scorn, no?

We need to answer these questions, and not just gaze past them and go on with our beliefs about the second coming.



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Here is an interesting take on the "resurrection."

2 Tim 2:15-18

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.


Question: If the resurrection in the New Testament refers to the simultaneous 1) coming of Christ in the clouds, 2) on the day of judgment, 3) the end of time, 4) the burning up of the sun, moon, and stars, and 5) the resurrection of all the dead of all people from the beginning of Adam and Eve, to be 6) judged by Christ, sitting on the throne of judgment, separating the good from the evil, like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats . . . then how could the faith of some be over thrown simply by Hymenaeus and Philetus saying that "the resurrection is past already?" How could these people possibly believe "the resurrection is past already" if all of these visible and astonishing things were to happen in front of their very eyes? Is it possible that many of us today do not understand what was the Resurrection of the New Testament?

I contend the "Resurrection" mentioned in the New Testament is the resurrection of Israel form "spiritual death" and the transformation of God's people from the fleshly Israel to the " Spiritual Israel" which was fulfillment of the promise made to Abraham, and it occurred in 70 AD with the physical annihilation of the earthly vestiges of the Mosaic economy.

One really has to try hard to mess salvation up. The old testament was given as a teacher but the new testament was given for a new life in him. powdr[/quote]

Well, i will agree with this part of this. Christ put up plenty of road blocks to keep men from being cast into the lake of fire. There are messages of the good news and of Jesus Christ in place all over the modern world. Probably all in this country know others who tell of the good news of the availability of everlasting life through the good news of only having to believe the good news and accepting Christ as Savior. Many roadblocks are in the way to try and save all in these latter days.

Anyone curious about the "time of the end" and the "resurrection" or the "second coming of Christ" This is an outstanding book that will take you through every New Testament passage that deals with these subjects.




A reformation – indeed – a revolution of sorts is taking place in modern evangelical Christianity. And while many who are joining in and helping promote this movement are not even aware of it, the book you hold in your hand has contributed greatly to initiating this new reformation. This “new” movement is sometimes called full preterism, (Also, and preferably by this writer, Covenant Eschatology). It is the belief that all Bible prophecy is fulfilled.

The famous evangelist Charles H. Spurgeon was deeply impressed with the scholarly, solid research in the book, although he did not accept the “final” conclusions reached by Russell. In modern times, this work has, and continues to impress those who read it. The reason is simple, the New Testament is emphatic and unambiguous in positing Christ’s coming and the end of the age for the first century generation.

To say this has troubled both scholars and laymen alike is an understatement of massive proportions.

This book first appeared in 1878 (anonymously), and again in 1887 with author attribution. The book was well known in scholarly circles primarily and attracted a good bit of attention, both positive and negative. The public, however, seemed almost unaware of the stunning conclusions and the research supporting those conclusions, until or unless they read of Russell’s work in the footnotes of the commentaries. Scholars have recognized and grappled with this imminence element, that is the stated nearness of the day of the Lord, seldom finding satisfactory answers.

Scholars such as David Strauss accused Jesus of failure. Later, Bultmann said that every school boy knows that Jesus predicted his coming and the end of the world for his generation, and every school boy knows it did not happen. C.S. Lewis also could not resolve the apparent failed eschatology.

Bertrand Russell rejected Christianity due to the failed eschatology - as he perceived it - of Jesus and the Bible writers. As a result of these “skeptical” authors, modern Bible scholarship has followed in their path and Bible commentaries today almost casually assert the failure of the Bible writers - and Jesus - in their eschatological predictions. This is where Russell’s work is of such importance.

While Russell was not totally consistent with his own arguments and conclusions, nonetheless, his work is of tremendous importance and laid the groundwork for the modern revolution known as the preterist movement. Russell systematically addressed virtually every New Testament prediction of the eschaton. With incisive clarity and logical acumen, he sweeps aside the almost trite objections to the objective nature of the Biblical language of imminence. With excellent linguistic analysis, solid hermeneutic and powerful exegetical skills, Russell shows that there is no way to deny that Jesus and his followers not only believed in a first century, end of the age parousia, but, they taught it as divine truth claiming the inspiration of the Holy Spirit as their authority.

Russell not only fully established the undeniable reality of the first century imminence of “the end,” he powerfully and carefully shares with the reader that “the end” that Jesus and the N.T. writers were anticipating was not the end of the time space continuum (end of the world). It was in fact, the end of the Old Covenant Age of Israel that arrived with the cataclysmic destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70.

Russell properly shows how the traditional church has so badly missed the incredible significance of the end of that Old Covenant Age. Russell’s work is a stunning rejection – and corrective -- of what the “Orthodox” historical “Creedal” church has and continues to affirm. The reader may well find themselves wondering how the “divines” missed it so badly! Further, the reader will discover that Russell’s main arguments are an effective, valid and true assessment of Biblical eschatology. And make no mistake, eschatology matters.

Oh,my brother,we would have to sit down and talk about these things for hours if not days before we could completely understand. Just as a quick note,I think you read too much into the phrase "and overthrow the faith of some" by giving it substance it may not necessarily contain. I think the point is rather that the Resurrection had not come yet,and so the teaching was in error.

I was stationed at MCAS New River back in the early 1980s. One day, when coming out of church and heading to the parking lot, a young man approached me and my family and asked me if I knew that the second coming of Christ and the resurrection had already occurred. I played along, but rolled my eyes at my wife with a smile. He offered me a few brochures and the Parousia book by Russell in paper back. I thanked him and went home and put that book on my book shelf and never gave it a second thought.

Years later, and after five duty station changes, I ended up in Oklahoma City at my final duty station on Christmas Eve of 1996. As we were unpacking some boxes I came across that book. Over the next few months I began reading it, with an open Bible, and my eyes were opened as the truth about the subject flooded over me.

I shared the book with one of my spiritual brothers, and he too was engulfed in the truth. Years later, I shared it with my wife, and my most spiritual son, and he has embraced the obvious truth as well.

The bottom line is that when the student is ready, the teacher will come. I have since made contact with a brother in Christ here in Oklahoma by the name of Dr. Don Preston. He is the #1 subject matter expert and world wide debater on the topic, and he receives my financial support, because I see it as the answer to middle east peace. I don't make it a matter of faith, and I resigned as a Sunday school teacher at church because the elders were becoming uncomfortable with my teaching. I am not looking to split the church over this, but if one wants to learn the absolute and objective Scriptural teaching on this subject, I could not recommend a better place to start than with Russell's book. On Preston's website, you can access his vast library of books as well. He has been a prolific writer on the subject.

Galatians 4:4

"but when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman , made under the law"





Jesus is a subordinate and not equal to God the Father.

John 14:28
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad
that I am going to the Father,for the Father is greater than I."

next we have the Son saying only his Father knows.
Matthew24:36
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

Jesus gave up some of his divine attributes while on earth. He said he was subordinate to the Father while on earth but that doesn't necessarily carry over to while he's in heaven. Outside of the 30 some years that Jesus was human, we see him and God intermixed. John 1:3 says Jesus is the creator and in Gen 1:1 it says that God created the heavens and the earth. John 1:1 says that Jesus and God are the same. Jesus said that God is spirit and can't be seen so we know that when God was meeting men face to face in the OT, that was Jesus.
So, outside of his short time on earth, Jesus is fully God.

An answer to the question of resurrection.
There are more than one resurrection.
One happened on the day that Jesus rose from the dead, many were seen walking around in the cities after they were dead for years.
There will be more, one when those who are the bride of Christ will meet Him to live in that great city for a thousand year reign.
And the last when all those who denied Him will rise to be judged by God and the Saints.
3 resurrections and yes ALL will rise again whether to live in glory or be damned to hell which btw is not eternal like many think.
It will be utterly destroyed with all in it.

Jesus was God veiled in human flesh.
There is no giving up of any powers, He said He could’ve called legions of angels to help Him at any moment.
God and Jesus are one.

I understand what you mean, but he was fully God while on earth, too.

Fully God, yes, but he did give up some of his omniscience anyway. He said he didn't know the time of the end. We're not capable of understanding exactly what his relationship with God was during that time.

Okay I'm confused.

First, Hymenaus and Philetus, whoever these people were did not impress the Apostle Paul much so that is a giant, colossal, big ass, honking, red flag right there that whatever they believed was wrong. He made a negative statement without detail about them in One Timothy as well.

Next, tradition states that Paul was murdered by the Romans sometime around AD 67 so he wrote both One and Two Timothy before then. So if Hymenaus and Philetus were teaching that the resurrection had already happened in time for Paul to write about them, they were doing it before the destruction of the Temple in AD 70 when the "spiritual resurrection" was alleged to take place by these folks. So that would make them wrong about it even if it were true. So my question is, can the people espousing this theory not count?

Further, what pages of the Bible do you have to tear out in order to make this theory work? Perhaps One Thessolonians 4: 16-18. If the second coming has already taken place, are we waiting for the 3rd in which Jesus "comes down from heaven"? Anytime someone comes to me with some kind of new "revelation" that requires me to twist, edit, or omit other scriptures, I gong it pretty quick. No end to all manner of cockamamie stuff has been concocted based on one verse which could easily be dismissed as garbage if people would only read the Bible and think for themselves and apply its whole counsel. When you fail to do that you are liable to wind up dancing with a rattlesnake in some little church in the Appalachian mountains.......or some such mental equivalent.

Well said.

Yes,there's a few things I would have to omit as well to believe we are in the new millennial reign after Christ's second coming. One would be the new city Jerusalem coming down from Heaven,as spoken of in Revelation 21. Another huge question is,where is Jesus,if the second coming has already been? From what I read,the whole purpose is so that God can live with his people.

I've read dozens of verses used to support the idea that hell isn't eternal. Every single one of them can be as easily interpreted to mean that hell and it's inhabitants are separated from heaven, out of sight, out of mind, but yet continue to exist. All of these questionable verses are easily overshadowed by some hard evidence that leaves no room for interpretation:

Matthew 25:46, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into eternal life."
Mark 9:43, "And if your hand makes you sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched."
Revelation 14:11, "And the smoke of their torment ascends up forever and ever."

I also get tired of hearing about how Satan rules in hell. He won't. Hell was created especially for him and his followers. He won't rule, he'll be it's principle victim.

This.

All good points. I feel the same way about people thinking Satan rules Hell. I know you know this but for anyone interested,the scripture actually tells us that Hell was never created for man. It was made for Satan and all the fallen angels that followed him in his attempt to exalt himself in Heaven.I think it's interesting that since Hell wasn't created for men,they wind up there anyway. Could it be that they do because there's no other place for them? I mean if Hell was just punishment for a little while and then the Spirit was destroyed,what's the point? What good is punishment unless it's to reform wrong doing? If there's nothing left after the punishment to reform,then what's the point?

I personally think that a spirit cannot be destroyed, and will live eternally,either with God who that spirit made Lord,or with Satan,who that spirit made Lord.

I often hear folks say they don’t believe in hell because he’ll is not humane.
I point out to them that they are right but it wasn’t created for humans.
But if someone rejects Christ they have made the choice to be there.