Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Optics New Start Ups, Existing Companies and just my opinion

I was reading the boutique optics companies missing huge opportunity thread and was going to post this there and decided to start a new thread instead.

For those who do not know me, very quickly, I grew up in the Camera and Optics industry. Camera Land was established in 1957 and we are a family owned and operated business. I personally started coming into the store and learning the business when I was 8 years old on weekends and school brakes and have been in the business ever since. That was in 1971.
Since then I have seen the 'Great and well established" disappear. In cameras there is no longer Pentax, Minolta or Konica. Big powerhouse brands. Now there's Sony and Panasonic in cameras, which were just electronic companies. Fuji who was really only film is now a strong camera brand. Kodak, which was probably one of the biggest household names is basically all but gone.
Times change and companies that change with the times grow and those that do not die. It's just the way it is.

Pentax was bought by Ricoh. They no longer even have a booth at SHOT. Their Sports optics customer service dept employs 1 person and they have not released anything new in years. Their PF-80 ED spotting scope is a great scope but has not changed in over a decade, maybe even 2. It exists in their line but Pentax did away with all their riflescopes a few years back and do nothing to promote any sports optics at all anymore. A huge name, pretty much gone.

It is a huge undertaking for a new start up to get established. There are literally hundreds of brands these days and I think it safe to say that of those hundreds of brands there are 20 - 25 which are the standard (if that many) and all the rest are just another blurred Pacific Rim name that nobody cares for or about.

Some of these newer start ups:
Tract, Maven, GPO, Athlon, etc will go the distance as Vortex did 15 or so years ago. Some will not make it due to under funding, lack of quality control, lousy marketing or a combination of reasons. Some will make it and after a while forget what it was that built them in the first place and try to coast on their success, allow quality control to slip and fail for stupid reasons.
As a retailer all I can do is check out the new lines and determine if there's something worthwhile there or it's just another of the hundreds of who cares companies.

Every year at SHOT I spend time looking at companies we do not carry. Companies that have been suggested to us, companies that have approached us, companies we have heard good things about. Ther's many 'me too" companies that have nothing to set them apart from everyone else.
A couple of years ago we took on Konus. I had been suggested to look at them for their decent quality inexpensive spotters. I looked at what they had and for the price was impressed. No they will not compete with any of the top brands, however, there's many folks who need a decent quality affordable optic they can rely on. I had a few friends at SHOT come and meet me that the Konus booth to look at their riflescopes (most with etched reticles), their spooters and their binoculars. These friends are hunting guides, industry forum owners and writters and an NYPD Ballistics Analyst. We all were fairly impressed with what we saw for the prices. We have since taken in their Riflescopes and their Spotters. We decided against their binocular line as they were unimpressive and there's lots of decent binoculars at every price point starting around $100.00, even less when there are deals.

There's an old saying "There's an ass for every chair" some guys are looking for a $69.99 4x32 fixed power scope and some guys wouldn't touch it. As a member of this forum, a lifelong optics retailer and a supporting vendor here and elsewhere it is my job to try and weed out the crap from the worthwhile and to stand behind the brands we opt to carry and represent.

All the more power to these new brands including the direct to consumer start ups. I never wish ill on anyone who tries to make a go of any business as long as their intentions are to produce quality.

Before I went to SHOT there were posts and PM's about Camera Land having some scopes made as "24HourCampfire" scopes. The various suggestions proved to be a near impossible undertaking as this one wants this and that one wants that and the other one wanted the other thing.

The only constant that I found was if we have a great quality, made in Japan 6x42 in Plex and #4 built it would be well received if we could offer it for around $299.99.
We discussed this with a couple of Japan mfg's and will be working on this hopefully for a Fall 2018 release.

Having any scope built has a minimum order quantity of a couple/few hundred scopes and it is quite an undertaking which is why I feel it makes sense to start with 1 model and possibly build from there.
As Camera Land has never done such a project before we will most likely be working with an established brand and running this through them as an exclusive scope for Camera Land distribution as we are not an importer and are just not set up for that type of project nor is that our world. We will work together to build a great optic, however, we want to provide the best we can and we can only doing that doing what we know. Knowing to work with a partner that knows importing and such makes a great deal of sense for us.

A few years ago we offered a Meopta MeoPro 3-10x44 Plex GDLE (Gr8fuldoug Limted Edition) that did not sell as we had thought. Great scope, priced right, however, just not as popular as predicted. After hearing many requests we are confident a straight 6x42 will be the right step in developing a scope line.

Those of you who know us know that customer service is 1st and foremost as that is the way Pop taught us. If these new companies are smart they will offer the greatest customer service possible because it is a very important ingredient to a quality company.

There's lots of options of what brand to buy and who to buy it from. My suggestion is to build a working relationship with whatever company you find to be the right fit for you. Be it Camera Land, which would be my choice , SWFA, Optics Planet, Euro Optics, or whoever and you'll always have someone to work with, rely on, have in your corner and to ask questions. In the grand scheme of things you can shop the internet and always get the last penny of savings, however, in the long run you really will never save enough to make up for the advice, service and knowledge of having a go to company.

As always, please feel free to send a PM, e-mail to gr8fuldougaol.com or give me a call, 516-217-1000 to discuss what optic or camera is right for you because in this internet driven world we will continue to offer personalized service, which in my book is priceless
Thanks for taking the time to read this

Outside of 24 Hour, I don’t see people with fixed power scopes in the field

Thanks Doug. Pop taught you well.

"In the grand scheme of things you can shop the internet and always get the last penny of savings, however, in the long run you really will never save enough to make up for the advice, service and knowledge of having a go to company."

You rock Doug.

What do you attribute the slow sales of the Meopta MeoPro 3-10x44 Plex GDLE to?

That’s a fact. But then again, you can’t even buy the darned things either at a Cabelas or LGS around my parts. Plus, everyone needs a 12X scope to shoot deer at 150 yards these days.

I just think the 3.5-10x44 is not that popular a size.

Maybe a 2-10x40 or a 4-20x50 would have done better.

When we did this we thought:
The Zeiss conquest 3.5-10 sold fairly well at around $550.00. Meopta made this scope for Zeiss and it essentially was a re-wrapped MeoPro. We figured at only $349.99 it was a homerun and we'd blow through them offering a great scope at a great price. We had to commit to a run of 400 scopes. It took 3 years to move through what we had predicted a 6 month supply.
Live and learn

Most hunters now days want a holdover reticle, or the ability to dial range

Doug,
As I recall, there were multiple people in that "24hourcampfire scope" thread who wanted what was essentially an SWFA 3-9 with a covered windage turret and a zero stop elevation, or something along the lines of the Bushnell LRHS put on a diet.

Build a "hunting dialer" scope with specs similar to those, and I suspect people will buy them......seems like about once a week someone on here talks about wanting a scope like that, but nobody makes one.

Yeah, I'd think a 6x with dots would do better than a #4.

Your scope was a home run that didn’t sell, just goes to show how fickle the buying public is.

Great post, just ordered through Doug for the first time, and will continue to do so.
No matter the type of scope comes out for the campfire special I will be behind it,
And will order one.

I'd prefer a 4.5-15x44 or 3-15x44

Doug,

I agree 100% with Prarie Goat. IMHO, and we all know what that is worth, the “Hey Doug” thread morphed significantly from this point. Personally not a fan of a #4, I just think some voices are louder than others. Also, if you’re dialing, holdover dots, hash marks, etc are worthless unless they match the turret. So there is that.

Also, FWIW, great post and thank you again for all the customer service, which is invaluable! I’m a relationship based kinda guy and that means a lot to me.

Lastly, when people look at success, it’s easy to overlook the guy (or gal) who busts their ass 24/7/365. I don’t care who you are or what you do. Initiative and hard work goes further than just about anything.

Thank you,

More people voted for Hillary than Trump.


As stated, I defy you to go into a store and find a fixed power scope, outside a Bushnell Banner 4x. Bells and whistles sell. Appearance over substance it was drives scope purchases and votes.

Thanks, Doug, great post!

Whatever Brands Doug sells, CameraLand gets the call when I want one. Their service is worth it.

Skylar at SWFA is pretty incredible also.

Optics Planet Sux. They are not honest about their stock or delivery times. They don't answer their emails and your looking at a 10 of 15 minute wait to talk to a rep. When you call. I just made this mistake buying a Trijicon from these numb nuts. To add insult to injury, I could have got one from Doug but they are not on the websight.

Doug, I'd be very surprised if 20% of the people who said they'd buy X from you if X could be built will buy one when they become available.

Doug,

From the other side, being in both the pure shooting, and the hunting world- specifically western back pack hunting I get a different take than most.


I vaguely remember the CL Meopta scopes, and just as then, when I read abut it in this thread my first thought was- "won't sell". Here's why-

The first thing to realize is that the greater hunting community does NOT drive the market anymore and is not the ones spending money each year. I know most hunters will be upset about the thought that they aren't "THE"market, but they're not. The shooting community is the market it. It isn't hard to see why. Every pure hunter that I know buys a very limited amount of guns, ammo, optics and accessories. Of what they do buy, it's almost always going to be traditional (or offer something unique). Contrast that with the pure shooters: they are always chasing the next advantage- new rifles, ammo, optics, etc, etc. And they consume it in far larger quantities.

As an example- all of the "pure hunters" where I work even seeing the total failures of those scopes still tend to buy Leupold, Swarovski, etc. for their hunting rifles. Of which they usually have only one or two and outside of work shoot a box or two of ammo a year. They may average a new scope every two-three years and they don't know what a Meopta is, and would never spend $350 on one.
On the other side- the "shooters" take the lessons learned at work and apply it to all of their shooting and put Nightforce, SWFA, Bushnell Elite Tactical, etc. on their hunting rifles that they shoot 5-10k rounds a year out of. The average guy probably buys 4-5 new scopes a year and they want the same things in them that they want from work scopes- reliability, durability, good reticles, good turrets. They don't care about traditional brands and absolutely would try a Meopta if it was bombproof. If the first few worked- they'd buy ten each.


Your "Meopta MeoPro 3-10x44 Plex GDLE" appeals to neither group. The traditional hunters won't actually choose it over a Leupold, and it does absolutely nothing for the dudes that actually shoot. Your 6x special scope is in all likelihood going to be the same. It's not without merit, but the "simple fixed 6x with simple reticle that's truly reliable" is WAAAAY over represented on the campfire. Not only that, but it doesn't take much looking back to see that the vast majority of those clamoring for it don't generally follow through and actually buy that many scopes.
I'm not saying don't build it, as I think there needs to be that scope in the market, but I am saying that shooters buy scopes. SWFA sells every 6x42mm and 3-9x42mm SS MQ scope they can make because they work for shooters who hunt, and for hunters who shoot. Getting a company to make a neat 6x scope that is built the same as all their other scopes is an absolute waste of time. It will be a flop.

The first requirement MUST be absolute durability above all else. Second, MUST be perfect tracking. Even if you do both things, if you make it with 1/4moa adjustments and a duplex you're going to sell all of about 20 of them. Make it with 1/10th mils adjustments, low pro elevation turret, capped windage turret, a well designed mil reticle, and the durability to fall off of a cliff and still be zeroed perfectly.... and it will be the next SWFA SS 6x42mm MQ- you won't be able to keep them in stock.

This. Again.

Formidilosus I appreciate your input and respect you and your suggestion. I follow your posts and value your input.

I shall forward on the:

"The first requirement MUST be absolute durability above all else. Second, MUST be perfect tracking. Even if you do both things, if you make it with 1/4moa adjustments and a duplex you're going to sell all of about 20 of them. Make it with 1/10th mils adjustments, low pro elevation turret, capped windage turret, a well designed mil reticle, and the durability to fall off of a cliff and still be zeroed perfectly.... and it will be the next SWFA SS 6x42mm MQ- you won't be able to keep them in stock."

Constructive advise is always welcome and greatly appreciated. If/when we see this project through I will call upon you to ask for your evaluation of the scope, if that would be alright.