Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Optics New Start Ups, Existing Companies and just my opinion

I still have and use my Pentax SP WP 10x42's and love them. Bought them from Cameraland I think. I remember getting a rebate on them too. I ended up finding a like new used pair of 8x42's for my son. Those were his first binoculars and he has been using them for years. I remember Mule Deer always speaking highly of those binoculars. A couple of years ago I thought I lost my pair. I PM'd Mule Deer and he suggested I would have to pay north of 1K to get comparable glass. I thankfully found the binoculars a few days later. I misplaced them after a Bear hunt.

Yep, it's hard to believe Pentax lost that market.

I was reading the boutique optics companies missing huge opportunity thread and was going to post this there and decided to start a new thread instead.

For those who do not know me, very quickly, I grew up in the Camera and Optics industry. Camera Land was established in 1957 and we are a family owned and operated business. I personally started coming into the store and learning the business when I was 8 years old on weekends and school brakes and have been in the business ever since. That was in 1971.
Since then I have seen the 'Great and well established" disappear. In cameras there is no longer Pentax, Minolta or Konica. Big powerhouse brands. Now there's Sony and Panasonic in cameras, which were just electronic companies. Fuji who was really only film is now a strong camera brand. Kodak, which was probably one of the biggest household names is basically all but gone.
Times change and companies that change with the times grow and those that do not die. It's just the way it is.

Pentax was bought by Ricoh. They no longer even have a booth at SHOT. Their Sports optics customer service dept employs 1 person and they have not released anything new in years. Their PF-80 ED spotting scope is a great scope but has not changed in over a decade, maybe even 2. It exists in their line but Pentax did away with all their riflescopes a few years back and do nothing to promote any sports optics at all anymore. A huge name, pretty much gone.

It is a huge undertaking for a new start up to get established. There are literally hundreds of brands these days and I think it safe to say that of those hundreds of brands there are 20 - 25 which are the standard (if that many) and all the rest are just another blurred Pacific Rim name that nobody cares for or about.

Some of these newer start ups:
Tract, Maven, GPO, Athlon, etc will go the distance as Vortex did 15 or so years ago. Some will not make it due to under funding, lack of quality control, lousy marketing or a combination of reasons. Some will make it and after a while forget what it was that built them in the first place and try to coast on their success, allow quality control to slip and fail for stupid reasons.
As a retailer all I can do is check out the new lines and determine if there's something worthwhile there or it's just another of the hundreds of who cares companies.

Every year at SHOT I spend time looking at companies we do not carry. Companies that have been suggested to us, companies that have approached us, companies we have heard good things about. Ther's many 'me too" companies that have nothing to set them apart from everyone else.
A couple of years ago we took on Konus. I had been suggested to look at them for their decent quality inexpensive spotters. I looked at what they had and for the price was impressed. No they will not compete with any of the top brands, however, there's many folks who need a decent quality affordable optic they can rely on. I had a few friends at SHOT come and meet me that the Konus booth to look at their riflescopes (most with etched reticles), their spooters and their binoculars. These friends are hunting guides, industry forum owners and writters and an NYPD Ballistics Analyst. We all were fairly impressed with what we saw for the prices. We have since taken in their Riflescopes and their Spotters. We decided against their binocular line as they were unimpressive and there's lots of decent binoculars at every price point starting around $100.00, even less when there are deals.

There's an old saying "There's an ass for every chair" some guys are looking for a $69.99 4x32 fixed power scope and some guys wouldn't touch it. As a member of this forum, a lifelong optics retailer and a supporting vendor here and elsewhere it is my job to try and weed out the crap from the worthwhile and to stand behind the brands we opt to carry and represent.

All the more power to these new brands including the direct to consumer start ups. I never wish ill on anyone who tries to make a go of any business as long as their intentions are to produce quality.

Before I went to SHOT there were posts and PM's about Camera Land having some scopes made as "24HourCampfire" scopes. The various suggestions proved to be a near impossible undertaking as this one wants this and that one wants that and the other one wanted the other thing.

The only constant that I found was if we have a great quality, made in Japan 6x42 in Plex and #4 built it would be well received if we could offer it for around $299.99.
We discussed this with a couple of Japan mfg's and will be working on this hopefully for a Fall 2018 release.

Having any scope built has a minimum order quantity of a couple/few hundred scopes and it is quite an undertaking which is why I feel it makes sense to start with 1 model and possibly build from there.
As Camera Land has never done such a project before we will most likely be working with an established brand and running this through them as an exclusive scope for Camera Land distribution as we are not an importer and are just not set up for that type of project nor is that our world. We will work together to build a great optic, however, we want to provide the best we can and we can only doing that doing what we know. Knowing to work with a partner that knows importing and such makes a great deal of sense for us.

A few years ago we offered a Meopta MeoPro 3-10x44 Plex GDLE (Gr8fuldoug Limted Edition) that did not sell as we had thought. Great scope, priced right, however, just not as popular as predicted. After hearing many requests we are confident a straight 6x42 will be the right step in developing a scope line.

Those of you who know us know that customer service is 1st and foremost as that is the way Pop taught us. If these new companies are smart they will offer the greatest customer service possible because it is a very important ingredient to a quality company.

There's lots of options of what brand to buy and who to buy it from. My suggestion is to build a working relationship with whatever company you find to be the right fit for you. Be it Camera Land, which would be my choice , SWFA, Optics Planet, Euro Optics, or whoever and you'll always have someone to work with, rely on, have in your corner and to ask questions. In the grand scheme of things you can shop the internet and always get the last penny of savings, however, in the long run you really will never save enough to make up for the advice, service and knowledge of having a go to company.

As always, please feel free to send a PM, e-mail to gr8fuldougaol.com or give me a call, 516-217-1000 to discuss what optic or camera is right for you because in this internet driven world we will continue to offer personalized service, which in my book is priceless
Thanks for taking the time to read this

Constructive advise is always welcome and greatly appreciated. If/when we see this project through I will call upon you to ask for your evaluation of the scope, if that would be alright.

Doug,

I hope it works out, an I am more than happy to help if you need it

Way I see it scope manufacturers are victims of their own policies.

Think of the typical old curmudgeon. Shoots three rounds two days before deer season to check zero.
Requirement #1- Scope needs to stay zeroed. What a concept.

These guys don't spend $1200 on a scope.
Requirement #2- Scope must be affordable (as cheap as possible and still work. If they could get that for 80 bucks, they'd do it.)

If Old Curmudgeon hooked his bootlaces on the vent knob in the 73 Blazer on the way out the door and fell on his head, he may have to sight the gun in. When he turns the little thingys, the bullets need to go someplace other than where they were going before he turned the little thingys. How is the box of ammo going to last 100 years if he burns it all up trying to chase the little thingys with the bullets?
Requirement #3- Track. The scope must track.

Old Curmudgeon doesn't dial. Old Curmudgeon doesn't use hashmarks to estimate holdover. Old Curmudgeon shoots the first spike he sees at 42 yards and goes home till next year. He and Martha can the venison and he puts his pre-64 Model 70 in 270 away until next year, when he will repeat all of the above. Old Curmudgeon likes Leupolds because they're made in America, always have been.

This is where scope manufacturers have lost Old Curmudgeon. He doesn't do acronyms. He doesn't buy a Crythlon 2.349 x17.64 x43 7/8's BFDHSTRD or care what LRHS stands for. Old Curmudgeon just wants his gun to shoot where it did last year so he can shoot another spike and go home to Martha. Old Curmudgeon doesn't want to know how many lines a manufacturer builds or imports, he just wants a 3-9 Leupold, because he knows what he's getting and it works.

If you want to sell an acronym scope, Old Curmudgeon is not your guy. He wants a Leupold, that works. Good American company that Leupold. Yessir.

Doug-congratulations to you and family business. I"m hoping in the future, more Grad schools will focus on American businesses like yours that have stood the test of time, and are relentlessly exploring ways to lead in the future. Your family business is what helped make America great.

If a $299 6x42 riflescope is what the people want and you can make money, then take the hill. But for me, which is probably an N of 1, I'd like to propose for your consideration to explore options with Schmidt and Bender. A collaboration with CL and S&B, whether it be a fixed 6 and/or 10 has a nice ring to it. Here are few proposed specs: make it an aluminum 30mm tube and make sure the turrets and reticles match-Mil/Mil and/or MOA/MOA. It's highly likely this idea could be cost prohibitive for many. If this is the case, remember this idea comes from a guy that doesn't have a clue on how to run an optics retail business.

Again, congrats and best wishes,

Scott

Scott, I thank you for the kind words and the suggestion. I am waffling back and forth as to whether it makes sense for me to step out of my area of expertise of evaluating existing products, company quality, and customer service and entering the world of product production. I have been discussing new scope ideas with a couple of the companies we work with now and perhaps we can work together with one or more of them to design and release some of my ideas without me having to take on such a huge project all alone.
We shall see

If sightron would come out with a better reticle and zero stop, it would be all I buy. Only scope I've owned other than Nightforce that tracks etc. The s-tac 3-16x42 would be a great hunting scope...

Scott, I thank you for the kind words and the suggestion. I am waffling back and forth as to whether it makes sense for me to step out of my area of expertise of evaluating existing products, company quality, and customer service and entering the world of product production. I have been discussing new scope ideas with a couple of the companies we work with now and perhaps we can work together with one or more of them to design and release some of my ideas without me having to take on such a huge project all alone.
We shall see

Lots of compromises to be made and decisions to make. The order of priority has been established quite well in this thread.

My thoughts:

One reason for Leupold popularity, IMO, is aesthetics. Europeans go to great lengths to ensure their scopes look like dog puke. I do grant that aesthetics are secondary to performance, but not at the expense of eye relief, mounting flexibility, and minimalist profile. Don't substitute a giant clunky parallax adjustment ring for a giant clunky magnification adjustment ring . In general, the duration of opportunity for field adjustment of elevation and parallax in a hunting situation is such that the adjustment itself need not be big and clunky for the sake of ergos and speed. At such low magnification, the scope maker should consider eliminating parallax adjustment altogether...and instead, testing parallax and publishing typical values in their specs. Adjustment positivity and reliability are required, along with resistance to inadvertent movement that bulk and "good" ergos would bring. If you are shooting for a fixed 4x or 6x, I don't see a need for objective lens sizing greater than 28mm and 36mm respectively. Keep ocular size down as well to allow low mounting.

FOV relative to other scopes in this size range is of minimal importance compared to eye relief and ability to mount the scope low. I'm trying to put this on light rifles for hunting in high-up far-off places using common UL sporter stocks without excessively raised combs. I want to be able to get reliable bone-supported cheek weld, like I can with a leupold in low mounts.

Reticle must be simple, period. Any sort of windage and upward vertical markings besides known milliradian based subtension to the thick part of the reticle is useless to me. Hashes below center, if used, must be fine hashes of modest size on a fine hair, with even milliradian-based spacing. Forget dots or hashes with arbitrary uneven spacing. Anyone interested in ranging with this scope will be doing so from a dope chart.

You win bigly if you can cram all of this into a unit with:
1. Ocular OD same as common Leupold
2. Objective < 36mm
3. Mounting flexibility equal to or greater than 4x33 or 6x42 leupold
4. Weight less than a pound.
5. Minimal marking and logos.

Major bonus points if you get it with a 1" tube and/or sub-12oz weight.

Major points removed for dog puke aesthetics when minimalist would work same and weigh less.

You're looking to replace my fleet of 4x33, 6x36 and 6x42 leupolds, and you will if you do it right.

Hey Doug, have you ever though of doing a KickStarter for this to get the ball rolling? Instead of trying to just make money on the scopes it could expose people to what CameraLand is and try to leverage your scope venture into other sales outside of the scopes.

I have thought of a few ways to raise the funds, however, I am leaning towards working with an established brand as a co-branded project

I love the S-tac 3-16....but it needs a illuminated reticle. I despise a Duplex for most uses, and I love the MOA reticle.....its just too damn thin.