Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Resizing without the expander ball

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This may be a dumb question, but is there a reason against just using collet neck die to size a dummy and determine if it chambers without resizing full length?

I have not been fl sizing unless it is needed to chamber?
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If it is a dumb question than I am a dummy too. I polish the collet die stem and reduce the radius angle of the decapper so it acts as an expander better even with undersized necks. Shape it like the universal expanders. I rarely have to use a FL die and a bump or body is usually sufficient. Also another dumb idea is to make sure the cases need the re-size before proceeding. Even though you should ignore the belt it does make even short cases safe to fire in a different (longer) chamber. I have also found the Lee seating die to be pretty good, not a Wilson but better than some others costing five times as much.

Clark, math - That's how I was visualizing the procedure but thought you all were somehow getting the expander out of the neck by magic, voodoo, or secret handshake.

Thanks for the explanation!

Sometimes, when I read replies from the guys who really, really know what they’re doing, it pisses me off that I don’t know so much.

Thanks for sharing your experience, it will make me a better reloader.





P

Yep. Then I ask incredibly stupid questions....

The Lee collet die spindle would have worked pretty terrible as an expander ball....just saying. It's not made of hard material and it is not smooth and tapered for the job.

Pharmseller,

Do you have a copy of the Big Book of Gun Gack? 99% of what's been mentioned here is covered in Chapter 6, "Sizing Cases Straight."

There's also stuff in the book that HASN'T been mentioned here....

Put me in the category of dumb internet reloaders... but, that aside, wouldn’t the body die followed by a collet neck die still produce less runout?

How do I get a signed copy of the most recent edition? Inscribed “To my good friend Quinn, thanks for your consistent guidance through all the years”





P

That's easy. As noted on the website, order one and we'll sign whatever you want!

Done



P

Thanks--but I must point out that it's not an update of the first GG, as some people have assumed. Instead it's a completely different book, except for reprinting the appendix on "The Rules," which Eileen suggested, since I mention the 4-to-1 Rule several times in GG II.

The chapter on sizing cases straightly appears in the first book, which appeared three years ago. The second book contains even more obsessive handloading stuff, as sort of an extension of the basics presented in the first book. (There's also a lot more gack about hunting rifles themselves, not just handloading.)

Or, if one doesn't want to use the collet die, which sizes the neck from the ID, then one could just buy the Redding bushing die.................but to be really precise, as with honed necks on standard dies, it really begs the question as to whether or not you are turning necks turning necks to even come close to keeping neck tension reasonably uniform amongst brass lots. Guess it depends on hot much you want to split the hair.

MM

MM,
I had a humbling experience in 2009.
I had used a Redding FL S die on 223 for years.
Then I did a dedicated population of 25 pieces of brass to each die and tested Redding, Forster, RCBS, and Lee.
I fired, resized, fired, resized, rinse, repeat, .....
I measured runout [bullet tilt] and brass length growth.
Despite Redding looking the best and costing the most, it did the worst.
Despite Lee collet neck looking the worst and costing the least, it did best.
I had never used the Lee, because it looks cheap.

I started polishing the die collet and the die collet sleeve of the Lee collet neck die. This did not make it more precise, but it made operating it smother. I posted pictures online.
Right now in my die spreadsheet, 11 of my 303+ dies are Lee Collet neck dies.
As I have bought them over the years, I noticed that Lee started polishing their die collet and collet sleeve at the factory, so I don't have to.

This was an entertaining thread, and it made me smile.

For some reason, although it's not related to reloading, I thought of this article as I was reading through the various entries.

https://www.cnn.com/style/article/placebo-buttons-design/index.html

I feel like I've chased the runout caused by the expander problem around the tree a few times. I was loading high volume and needed a efficient work flow and was looking for runout at the neck of less than 2 thou. Here's my evolution.
1) Tried polishing the expander and beveling the edge. Lubed inside of neck with mica. Didn't help.
2) Tried a floating carbide expander button (Redding I believe). Lubed inside of neck with mica. Didn't help
3) Tried the Hornady Elliptical expander. Needed a good polish. Felt better going in and out. Didn't help.
Realized that the expander at the end of a stem allowed for lots of off axis wiggle.
4) Tried an expander mounted at the top of the stem. Reduced rounout some.
5) Tried the Lyman M die. Helped some.
Realized that variations in neck thickness was driving some of my runout.
6) Started light neck turning. Then hitting with the M Die. Runout starting to look good.
7) Used a bushing die so I could drop the expanding completely and account for different neck thicknesses. Had to add separate step of bumping shoulder.
8) Realized neck turning was not going to be practical for the volume I was shooting.
9) After getting plugged into a supply of once fired Lapua Brass (Malcolm Cooper was test firing his AI rifles with Lapua, and I was getting the fired cases), realized that better brass is worth it.

Where am I today? I switched to the AR for competition, and that rifle seems to digest good amounts of runout without problem (maybe the multiple lugs around the bolt). I'll shoot LC there. Hunting guns get Lapua or sorted Win. Sized with standard die and expanded with an M Die. More serious stuff get the bushing die treatment. Oh yeah...neck tension matters.

BTW, I realize that none of this addresses the OP's question, but these are the thoughts that the ensuing discussion stimulated.

Yes, generally speaking, a Lee collet die + a body die is SOP for me today as well, with a Forster seater.

Just curious..............did you measure the straightness of the necks too or just the loaded bullets?

MM

In all those things you've tried, have you tried just lubing inside the case necks with case lube? That made a difference for me; in cases where pushing vs pulling the expander ball through made a difference, sufficient lube (not mica, it's not good enough) in the case neck mitigated the difference.

Of course that generally requires cleaning cases afterwards, so it may or may not work with your loading process. I don't do it on high volume 5.56 for the AR (and it doesn't seem to need it anyway) but on the lower volume bolt gun ammo, I just rinse the brass in laquer thinner after sizing.

Naturally consistent neck thickness and annealing is the other part of reducing runout, but that's been covered already.

I too go for a body die or honed neck FL die [can be the same thing] + Forster seater + Lee Collet neck die + a chamber reamer for each new cartridge.

I use a Sinclair concentricity gauge and measure the bullet of loaded ammo relative to the base of the case and the slope of the shoulder.

When the firing pin pushes the cartridge forward, it is stopped by the cartridge shoulder. This taper in taper fit will center the cartridge at that surface.

It is not always easy to measure relative to the shoulder, so I have modified the gauge.

I did. I like to use Imperial for low volume, and I had a problem with powder sticking to the inside of the neck. For high volume I use Dillon spray, which I guess I could have dipped necks into, but I didn't think that far into after my mica and moly fails.
I wasn't smart or motivated enough on that line of thinking to clean with thinner/acetone/MEK.

Couple of things I haven't tried, but might given the number of mentions on this thread are the Lee Collet. I also haven't tried inside neck reaming, but I did shop the Lee Target Loader (has anyone seen the prices on those recently?)

Given the lengths you and Clark have gone to in your sizing, I think I am a slacker.

Returning to the OP's question, has anyone addressed headspacing off the belt versus headspacing off the shoulder in his sharing ammo with a different rifle?

Actually, Clark, I meant of the cases/ammo done with the Redding bushing dies that you reported bad results on.

I assume it was non-concentric necks that causued the problems & just wondered what you found wrong with them compared to other, better stuff.

MM