I have a bunch of once-fired 7mm Rem Mag brass that I want to use in a different rifle than that used to fire the brass. Does anyone remove the expander ball to FL resize? I’d like to do this, then run the brass through my Lee collet neck sizer to neck size and deprime.

I’m using a Hornady Custom Grade sizing die.

Thanks,


P

MuleDeer thinks that is a good procedure so I do it.
As a first step I knock the primers out with a decapping die. Good thing to own.

Redding body die "doesn't touch the neck" are on sale at midway for the 7 rem mag! $35

I have 1 for each cartridge and Lee collet dies for sizing the neck.

One thing I would consider is if you have a fired piece of brass from both rifles is measuring brass to compare. You may be sizing a big batch that doesn't need sized at all.





Trystan

Have you considered going with a Redding S die?

Mule Deer said the same thing.

Tell me more!

And thanks, I ordered a .223, 7mm-08, and 7mm Rem Mag.





P

Your welcome Pharm! When useing the two dies together I size the body/bump the shoulder first than neck size. I believe mathman also uses Redding body dies and Lee collet neck sizer though I could be mistaken about that



Trystan

Just an FYI: If you had run that brass through the Hornady FL sizer without the expander ball the necks would have been sized down more than the Lee collet sizer would do. So the mandrel of the Lee collet die would actually have been acting as an expander at that point, and the collet part would then have been superfluous.

That was my thought as well. Might as well leave the expander ball in place and skip the collet die for the same result and less effort. Use the collet die for subsequent reloads after that.

But I've read it said that less neck runout is achieved by pushing the expander in (or in this case the mandrel) rather than pulling the expander out thru a reduced neck.

I know a couple of local across the course shooter that have in their words thrown their expander balls away. They fully resize without the balls. In their limited world of ATC is seems to work. One is a former AMU shooter.

Forster offers a service where they’ll hone the neck of your full length die to your desired dimension and you can get rid of the expander ball, I’ve got several dies done that way. The Redding body die coupled with tha Lee collet die is a good combo too, I use that on several rifles.

Expander balls are of the devil, anything you can do to get rid of them is a good thing.

I do most of my sizing with the Lee Neck collet die, and bump the shoulder when required with either a Redding Body die, or a larger diameter die at the neck, with the spindle removed....like a 260 die with the spindle removed, makes a darn good 243 body die, or 7 x 57 makes a good 6mm Rem body die.

Expander balls are/were the die makers solution for dealing with variations in neck wall thickness. If you have but one big lot of brass and it is all the same neck wall thickness, then a sizing die without expander plug with dimensions tailored to that brass is truly all you need. Otherwise heed the advice above, re: collet dies in conjunction with case body sizers.

I took a different approach for handloading my "serious" ammunition: Wilson sizing dies (and straight line seaters) and an arbor press. Godawful slow but the most perfectly fitting and straight ammo I ever loaded. You wouldn't want to go that route if feeding a hungry AR, but just the ticket for the accuracy nut with a lot of time on his hands.

I’d like to try the larger die as Seafire mentioned, or have Forster hone the neck. If I full length size using the appropriate cartridge die without the expander, the neck becomes too small to use the Lee Collet die.

Edit: or just use the Redding body die for the cartridges that it’s available.

Brass I shoot for accuracy, I use a tool to insure all the neck walls have the same thickness. Then I use a Redding S die with appropriate collet and neck size only.

When loading brass for ARs and just shooting, I make sure the inside of necks are clean (sonic or tumble clean) and use dies set up with carbide expander balls. Carbide expander balls tend to avoid pulling on neck and I don't have lube inside the case neck.

Collet dies work. Alternatively, I remove the expander ball when sizing and reinstall to enable neck expanding on the down stroke. Annealing can be your friend.

Another trick I do since I shoot mostly cast bullets in my .30's is to use an RCBS neck expander die with interchangeable plugs- .309' diameter for .310" bullets, .310" plug for .311's (to achieve .001" neck tension) which also puts a tiny flare on the case mouth for ease of starting the soft bullets in. (Carefully adjust seating die to remove the flare, or convert the flare into a slight crimp if need be.) I don't see why a guy couldn't use the same system for .308 jacketed bullets.

I never resize without removing the expander stem, then expand on the down stroke. I believe it helps with concentricity. Just me!

It does help with concentricity.....a lot. What gnoahhh said works too, both both jacketed and lead bullets.

Sometime back I received a set of custom dies from Hornady, a 3 piece set. The neck expander plug is tapered and the seat/crimp die uses a taper crimp. I think it works.......

I use the RCBS neck expander die, but I prefer the Lyman "M" die. Does a fine, fine job. I wish they sold the expanding mandrels separately, so I could just have a couple dies, one for short and one for longer cases, and then swap mandrels. Still, I prefer the function of the Lyman. I have used it before with jacketed bullets...some sharp-edged flat based ones that didn't look to be seating straight until I used the M die to prep the necks. Less neck tension, but straight seating. They shot fine.

I got a Sinclair concentricity gauge ~17 years ago.
There was a note like a fortune cookie in the box, "You will probably find the expander ball is the problem."


I have not used an expander ball for a long time.

After 1) setting aside expander balls and 2) getting Lee collet neck dies, 3) the third big break through in my mind is turning the necks with a chucked live center in the tail stock. Cut the mandrel in the lathe and throw away after each session. The neck thickness runout will be that of the headstock bearings, typically less than 0.0001" with a modern lathe.

Clark, you got a couple pictures of this setup?

I do this too, it works really well. Instead of a live center though, I hold a cut down ram from an old Lee press in the tailstock chuck and use the appropriate shellholder. Some lube on the shellholder lets the case head spin easily, and after trimming, the case is pulled back off the mandrel by the shellholder so I can process all my brass without ever turning the lathe off.

With a live center, how do you pull the case off the mandrel?

Kingston: Clark, you got a couple pictures of this setup?




You can see a piece of hex 12L14 free machining steel is in the 6 jaw headstock chuck on the left. A tool bit is used to cut the steel to an optimum diameter for an interference fit with the inside diameter of the brass and to cut a shoulder to stop the case mouth. As long as this steel is left in original position, the runout of this mandrel is extremely low.
You can see the live center 3 jaw chuck on the right grasping the case base. The runout at this point will be ~0.001 ~ 0.003" but the base of the neck can elastically flex enough [through a lever arm the length of the case body] that this has very little effect on the neck thickness runout.




Yondering: I do this too, it works really well. Instead of a live center though, I hold a cut down ram from an old Lee press in the tailstock chuck and use the appropriate shellholder. Some lube on the shellholder lets the case head spin easily, and after trimming, the case is pulled back off the mandrel by the shellholder so I can process all my brass without ever turning the lathe off.

With a live center, how do you pull the case off the mandrel?

The live center grasps the base of the case with chuck jaws. The tailstock can crank off the case off the mandrel, if the Morse tapers are jammed in hard enough.
Years ago I was using a modified RCBS ram with shell holder in the tailstock per what I read in 2002 on Mike Bryant's website.
I was talking to him and he said he had a better method now. I wanted to try something better, but I could not remember what Mike said, and someone on the internet sent me a live center with a tailstock for other uses.... so I stumbled on this live center with a chuck trick..
http://benchrest.com/showthread.php...e&p=742156&highlight=#post742156
https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-Jaw-x-2-...k-Center-with-MT2-Arbor-New/291908770052

I think the one sent me is cheaper than this. There are lots of variations. But mine is MT2, so I have an adapter for my PM1236 lathe with MT3 tailstock.


After a few years of measuring neck thickness runout with a ball micrometer before and after turning.... Think how shocked I was to suddenly get 10X better than I had ever measured.
https://www.amazon.com/Anytime-Tools-Micrometer-Spherical-0-0001/dp/B01524DDIO

That makes sense, it sounded like just a live center, didn't realize you'd attached a chuck to it. (Don't know how much machining you do, but a "center" is a tapered point, what you have is really a live chuck in the tailstock.) That setup looks handy for a number of different things.

The ram and shellholder method works pretty well, but I've had to deburr the edges of some of the shellholders so they don't shave the rim on the off stroke.

Either way, this lathe method of neck turning definitely produces superior results in neck thickness.


One tip I use, that you might like as well, is to hold a small piece of 0000 steel wool against the freshly turned neck before withdrawing it off the mandrel. That removes those tiny burrs visible in your micrometer photo and burnishes the surface. Not a critical detail, just a nice finishing touch I like to use; fine steel wool is handy for all sorts of deburring and burnishing operations on the lathe as you probably know, especially with soft metals like brass, aluminum, and copper.

That can be done, but I have proven it is not idiot proof ....repeatedly.

For making 1" diameter bolt knobs of wood look fancy, I will do steel wool on a spinning object... carefully.

But for small diameter work I am using various grades of scotch brite pad. It is easier to keep from spooling around the work.

I just use a pinch of steel wool. If it gets caught (which I've never experienced when neck turning) it just pulls away, instead of taking a finger with it.

I got my Redding body dies today. Thanks for the advice.






P

This may be a dumb question, but is there a reason against just using collet neck die to size a dummy and determine if it chambers without resizing full length?

I have not been fl sizing unless it is needed to chamber?

This is the system that I use for quite a few rifles / ammo................I only use the body die as needed if cases grow too long.

MM

Going to try pushing the expander into the sized neck rather than pulling thru. How far are y'all backing off on the sizer die to be sure you're not reducing the neck after the ball passes thru?

None of it chambered. Needed sized.





P

You don't really need to back it off. You should be able to feel when the ball is all the way through the neck, so just don't raise the ram any more once you're there.

Yeah, that finally occured to me. Thanks

What might be the dumbest question of the day posted on the innanets - how do you push the expander ball through the neck but not pull it back out, just like a normal resizing step? It is quite possible I'm not visualizing this correctly.......

You do have to pull it back out, but in this situation the pulling out part isn't doing all of the work, most of it having been done in the push over part. Hence less runout.

This makes a huge difference in ammo concentricity, and thus precision. Shell holders pulling a tiny neck case over the expander ball, makes the neck bigger and bent.
1) Take the expander ball or stem out.
2) Resize the brass.
3) Put the expander ball or expander ball/ decapping stem back into the die.
4) Size the brass again, but only far enough to get the expander ball to go through the neck, do not downsize the neck again.
5) The case is now sized, the neck is big enough to seat and bullet and small enough to hold a bullet. The neck is only 10% as bent as it would be if sized and expander balling were done in one step.

The reason this makes a difference is that shell holders pull at an angle, while they push straight.

If your FL sizer die has been honed out to 0.002" smaller than the loaded ammo, the expander ball will probably not make the neck bent.

The reason for the expander ball existence, is that the neck in the sizer die is so much smaller than optimum that the bullet may not be seatable.

Other companies off the same service, but I have paid $10 to Forster to hone out the neck of a sizer die. I have done this over a dozen times.

To hone out a 25-06 die to my 6.5-06 specifications, that was a lot more than $10 and a lot of talking, as that is a lot of honing.
In 280AI [not offered by Forster], which I am building (4) rifles right now, I have honed out dies myself. That is to be avoided. Dies are hard.

If I understand the procedure correctly the case moves up, over and just past the expander ball. You stop right there and the internal dimension of the case neck is +/- the diameter of the expander ball. When the ball is pulled back thru the neck it is not expanding the neck any further, just traveling thru the corridor it just expanded. ??

It will still find some resistance, brass being a little springy.

There are two types of deformation, plastic, and elastic.
Elastic is how far it springs back, plastic is how far it does not spring back.

If you push the expander ball through, there will be plastic and elastic deformation.

But when the expander ball then pulls through, the interference is only the magnitude of elastic deformation.

Sure there is deformation pulling, but it is elastic and only lasts a second. No harm no foul on the pulling when done in a separate step.

As brass work hardens the threshold between elastic and plastic moves higher in applied stress. Having a Lee Collet neck die mandrel 0.002" smaller than the bullet or having a honed neck FL sizing die 0.002" smaller than loaded ammo seems to handle all variations of brass hardness.

P[/quote]

This may be a dumb question, but is there a reason against just using collet neck die to size a dummy and determine if it chambers without resizing full length?

I have not been fl sizing unless it is needed to chamber?
[/quote]

If it is a dumb question than I am a dummy too. I polish the collet die stem and reduce the radius angle of the decapper so it acts as an expander better even with undersized necks. Shape it like the universal expanders. I rarely have to use a FL die and a bump or body is usually sufficient. Also another dumb idea is to make sure the cases need the re-size before proceeding. Even though you should ignore the belt it does make even short cases safe to fire in a different (longer) chamber. I have also found the Lee seating die to be pretty good, not a Wilson but better than some others costing five times as much.

Clark, math - That's how I was visualizing the procedure but thought you all were somehow getting the expander out of the neck by magic, voodoo, or secret handshake.

Thanks for the explanation!

Sometimes, when I read replies from the guys who really, really know what they’re doing, it pisses me off that I don’t know so much.

Thanks for sharing your experience, it will make me a better reloader.





P

Yep. Then I ask incredibly stupid questions....

The Lee collet die spindle would have worked pretty terrible as an expander ball....just saying. It's not made of hard material and it is not smooth and tapered for the job.

Pharmseller,

Do you have a copy of the Big Book of Gun Gack? 99% of what's been mentioned here is covered in Chapter 6, "Sizing Cases Straight."

There's also stuff in the book that HASN'T been mentioned here....

Put me in the category of dumb internet reloaders... but, that aside, wouldn’t the body die followed by a collet neck die still produce less runout?

How do I get a signed copy of the most recent edition? Inscribed “To my good friend Quinn, thanks for your consistent guidance through all the years”





P

That's easy. As noted on the website, order one and we'll sign whatever you want!

Done



P

Thanks--but I must point out that it's not an update of the first GG, as some people have assumed. Instead it's a completely different book, except for reprinting the appendix on "The Rules," which Eileen suggested, since I mention the 4-to-1 Rule several times in GG II.

The chapter on sizing cases straightly appears in the first book, which appeared three years ago. The second book contains even more obsessive handloading stuff, as sort of an extension of the basics presented in the first book. (There's also a lot more gack about hunting rifles themselves, not just handloading.)

Or, if one doesn't want to use the collet die, which sizes the neck from the ID, then one could just buy the Redding bushing die.................but to be really precise, as with honed necks on standard dies, it really begs the question as to whether or not you are turning necks turning necks to even come close to keeping neck tension reasonably uniform amongst brass lots. Guess it depends on hot much you want to split the hair.

MM

MM,
I had a humbling experience in 2009.
I had used a Redding FL S die on 223 for years.
Then I did a dedicated population of 25 pieces of brass to each die and tested Redding, Forster, RCBS, and Lee.
I fired, resized, fired, resized, rinse, repeat, .....
I measured runout [bullet tilt] and brass length growth.
Despite Redding looking the best and costing the most, it did the worst.
Despite Lee collet neck looking the worst and costing the least, it did best.
I had never used the Lee, because it looks cheap.

I started polishing the die collet and the die collet sleeve of the Lee collet neck die. This did not make it more precise, but it made operating it smother. I posted pictures online.
Right now in my die spreadsheet, 11 of my 303+ dies are Lee Collet neck dies.
As I have bought them over the years, I noticed that Lee started polishing their die collet and collet sleeve at the factory, so I don't have to.

This was an entertaining thread, and it made me smile.

For some reason, although it's not related to reloading, I thought of this article as I was reading through the various entries.

https://www.cnn.com/style/article/placebo-buttons-design/index.html

I feel like I've chased the runout caused by the expander problem around the tree a few times. I was loading high volume and needed a efficient work flow and was looking for runout at the neck of less than 2 thou. Here's my evolution.
1) Tried polishing the expander and beveling the edge. Lubed inside of neck with mica. Didn't help.
2) Tried a floating carbide expander button (Redding I believe). Lubed inside of neck with mica. Didn't help
3) Tried the Hornady Elliptical expander. Needed a good polish. Felt better going in and out. Didn't help.
Realized that the expander at the end of a stem allowed for lots of off axis wiggle.
4) Tried an expander mounted at the top of the stem. Reduced rounout some.
5) Tried the Lyman M die. Helped some.
Realized that variations in neck thickness was driving some of my runout.
6) Started light neck turning. Then hitting with the M Die. Runout starting to look good.
7) Used a bushing die so I could drop the expanding completely and account for different neck thicknesses. Had to add separate step of bumping shoulder.
8) Realized neck turning was not going to be practical for the volume I was shooting.
9) After getting plugged into a supply of once fired Lapua Brass (Malcolm Cooper was test firing his AI rifles with Lapua, and I was getting the fired cases), realized that better brass is worth it.

Where am I today? I switched to the AR for competition, and that rifle seems to digest good amounts of runout without problem (maybe the multiple lugs around the bolt). I'll shoot LC there. Hunting guns get Lapua or sorted Win. Sized with standard die and expanded with an M Die. More serious stuff get the bushing die treatment. Oh yeah...neck tension matters.

BTW, I realize that none of this addresses the OP's question, but these are the thoughts that the ensuing discussion stimulated.

Yes, generally speaking, a Lee collet die + a body die is SOP for me today as well, with a Forster seater.

Just curious..............did you measure the straightness of the necks too or just the loaded bullets?

MM

In all those things you've tried, have you tried just lubing inside the case necks with case lube? That made a difference for me; in cases where pushing vs pulling the expander ball through made a difference, sufficient lube (not mica, it's not good enough) in the case neck mitigated the difference.

Of course that generally requires cleaning cases afterwards, so it may or may not work with your loading process. I don't do it on high volume 5.56 for the AR (and it doesn't seem to need it anyway) but on the lower volume bolt gun ammo, I just rinse the brass in laquer thinner after sizing.

Naturally consistent neck thickness and annealing is the other part of reducing runout, but that's been covered already.

I too go for a body die or honed neck FL die [can be the same thing] + Forster seater + Lee Collet neck die + a chamber reamer for each new cartridge.

I use a Sinclair concentricity gauge and measure the bullet of loaded ammo relative to the base of the case and the slope of the shoulder.

When the firing pin pushes the cartridge forward, it is stopped by the cartridge shoulder. This taper in taper fit will center the cartridge at that surface.

It is not always easy to measure relative to the shoulder, so I have modified the gauge.

I did. I like to use Imperial for low volume, and I had a problem with powder sticking to the inside of the neck. For high volume I use Dillon spray, which I guess I could have dipped necks into, but I didn't think that far into after my mica and moly fails.
I wasn't smart or motivated enough on that line of thinking to clean with thinner/acetone/MEK.

Couple of things I haven't tried, but might given the number of mentions on this thread are the Lee Collet. I also haven't tried inside neck reaming, but I did shop the Lee Target Loader (has anyone seen the prices on those recently?)

Given the lengths you and Clark have gone to in your sizing, I think I am a slacker.

Returning to the OP's question, has anyone addressed headspacing off the belt versus headspacing off the shoulder in his sharing ammo with a different rifle?

Actually, Clark, I meant of the cases/ammo done with the Redding bushing dies that you reported bad results on.

I assume it was non-concentric necks that causued the problems & just wondered what you found wrong with them compared to other, better stuff.

MM

Like others, I've fought the battle with runout but have mostly made my peace with it. For what it's worth, here's my process starting with fired brass.

1. Decap fired brass with Redding universal decapping die.
2. Clean using media tumbler.
3. FL size with Redding FL sizing die. Expander ball removed, using Imperial Wax.
4. Expand necks using Sinclair Mandrel and die body. Lightly lube neck interior. *I used to not lube necks until I had an issue when I started reloading some .300 WSM brass, The cases were compressing slightly at the base of the shoulder when pushing the mandrel through. Never had the issue reloading .204, .223, .220, .243, .270, 30-06 but did with the .300 WSM. Starting neck lubing and the problem went away.
5. Clean again in media tumbler to remove lube. Leave it in for a good 4+ hours and that seems to remove it all.
6. Check neck concentricty with 21st Century concentricty gauge.
7. Prime using 21st Century hand primer.
8. Drop powder and seat bullets with Redding Seater with VLD micrometer.
9. Measure concentricty on the bullet with 21st Century concentricty gauge.

I mostly shoot bolt guns so volume isn't a concern. This process seems like a good compromise between speed / time and precision. I've dabbled in neck turning but for a variety of reasons, not something I've really adopted. Would like to one day incorporate annealing.

Removing the expander ball seemed to give me the most gains in concentricity . I'm guessing I average ~.003 inches of runout, but I do get a handful that produce .005 inches and slightly above.

While I've made my peace with runout.... I've since turned my focus to improving powder measuring precision and speed. I've come close on several occasion to buying this puppy...

https://ce-products.myshopify.com/

Re item #4: Have you measured how many thousandths the Sinclair mandrel is having to expand the necks for each cartridge?

Back in the rec.guns old usenet days before the www, Professor Toby Bradshaw at the University of Washington, my alma mater, posted on Feb 28, 1994

I turned the necks on 25 Lapua .220 Russian cases after expanding the
necks to 6mm and running them through a Redding 6PPC FL die to set the
neck/shoulder junction back (no expander ball used, *ever*)

When I pressed him with "What is the difference between a mandrel you are using and an expander ball?"

He said the mandrel was on the push stroke.

And here we are 24 years later.

I've turned necks and not turned necks.

Seems to me, the Lee collet neck sizer makes that less of an issue, other than BR type rounds.

The biggest bang for the buck, IMO, is getting a Deluxe Lee die set with the 4 dies. I take their FL die and turn it into a body die with the Dremel. Have posted this before. It works pretty well and is a lot cheaper than buying a Redding body die. And, I don't like Lee FL dies that much anyway, don't generally use them other than as a converted body die. With neck sizing, you're gonna need a body die to bump the shoulders now and then when bolt closure starts showing resistance.

I use the Sinclair gauge and correct any run out (generally not that much) with a Tru Tool.

IMO, this is the easiest, least expensive way to load some really good, concentric ammo.

When I'm serious, I use a Wilson seater, some have been cut by the same reamer that cut the rifle chamber.

This is a good example of keeping it simple as in "KISS"...

DF

Another simple solution, described in GUN GACK, which works very well with many "standard" dies with expander balls, is to raise the expander back to just under the neck portion of the sizing die. This is exactly how Forster designs their full-length dies, and it tends to size necks straight despite the expander ball because the die's holding the case straight as the neck's dragged over the ball. Have used this technique successfully with at least 4 brands of expander-ball dies to help produce very straight ammo. In fact, I just used it a couple days ago with my .257 Weatherby dies to produce ammo averaging .002 in bullet runout.

The only "problem" with this technique is decapping, but I always have a Lee decapping die in one of the holes of my turret press, so imply turn the turret and knock the primer out.

However, many handloaders seem to prefer complicated, multi-step, slow solutions to a pretty simple problem.

When is KISS not mo better...

DF

Succinct and to the point, as usual.

Might also add that I went to the range with my .257 Weatherby ammo and the NULA Model 28 it was loaded for to make sure the rifle was OK for the upcoming hunting season. I'd just cleaned the barrel thoroughly, so started with a 3-shot "fouling" group, then after a few minutes shot three more. They went into .27 inch, which didn't totally surprise me, but after marking the first three on the target, went back and fired a fourth shot--which opened up the group to .37. An accurate rifle will generally shoot with full-length sized ammo that's reasonably straight.

I think that one should be ready for prime time.

What load?

DF

76 grains of H1000 and the 100-grain Nosler E-Tip. Velocity's 3550 from the 24-inch barrel.

I really like 120 E-Tip (and TTSX) in my 26 Nosler at nearly that speed.

Bet that load puts the hurt on critters, may even mess up some meat...

DF

Or just buy the Forster BR dies...........I like them better than anything else that I've used.

MM

I recently switched to this method after reading about on here. Wow talk about eliminating run out.

Yep, that would cut out the decapping step, as the Forester BR would do it all in one stroke.

But, if one was wanting to use what he had for maximum effect, JB's technique would be the way to go.

DF

I like Forster dies very much as well, but my job isn't to sell Forster dies, or any other brand. Instead it's to provide as much information as possible to readers, which means experimenting with a bunch of different kinds of dies, including inexpensive brands--the kind most handloaders

Most prefer to buying relatively inexpensive dies, the reason I've played with plenty of 'em, to see how they can be made to work better.

Yes, & thanks for all the tips, but even though you aren't in the business of selling anything, nothing wrong with expressing your preferences in a tactful manner when there is a clear difference in parts.

MM

I did while testing when I first started using them. Probably have it written down somewhere.

I soon realized all the mandrels I have, are the exact same diameter as the expander ball on my Redding FL dies. So whatever the delta is resulting from the down / compressing stroke and the up / expanding stroke using the dies with the ball, the mandrels will net the same.

I tried this with my Redding dies but you can't really get the expander ball up all that high on them. I was already well invested into Redding dies by the time I started to appreciate run out and looked for a solution, otherwise I might have gone with a different brand of die that was better suited to getting the ball up higher. In the end, I just decided to add mandrels and have been very happy with the results. It does add an extra step but it's not that onerous.

copperking,

Yep, Redding dies don't allow the expander ball to be raised as much as other brands. Have experienced exactly the same thing.

But a lot depends on the body taper (or lack of it) in the particular cartridge. If the case is more "modern," with little body taper, then Redding FL dies will still result in straight necks with the expander ball raised as much as possible, because the case remains aligned. Which is exactly why the .257 Weatherby dies work:The case doesn't taper much.

But with an "old-fashioned" tapered case like the .250 Savage or .300 H&H, dies that allow the expander ball to be raised just under the neck portion of the tend to work better. RCBS and Lyman full-length dies are good examples.

Interesting, I hadn't really considered the taper.

I was thinking along the likes of are the necks getting worked a lot more than necessary, even if they are coming out straight? My Redding FL die for 308 Winchester is really tight in the neck section, so much so that I prefer to use it only on the typically thin WW brass, or other brass with turned necks os similar dimensions.

Not to muddy the water, but I like to keep things simple. So what about the technique of using a neoprene O-ring between die and press frame to allow the die to "float" a bit as the expander pulls out through the case neck? I have been using this, and get many quite straight rounds, but also have some with runout. I just sort them, straight for hunting, less straight for initial sighting and less demanding use. Or would it be much better to size first and then push the expander into the case?

What little testing I have done the floating dies worked as good or better than fixed dies. The Lee O ring lock nuts work well with the collet sizer as it allows it to self center better, at least in theory, same with bullet seaters. I put index marks on the lock nuts to help increase uniformity when I change dies as otherwise your guessing with an O ring.

If you want straight cases the original hammer Lee dies can do it. I bet they would come within 75%+ of what good arbor dies do for run out.

Wrapids,

That can work, but another technique I use--especially when raising the expander ball in standard sizing dies--is to put small rubber washers on the seating stem, above the die, so the expander ball isn't held rigidly in place. In fact, the sizing die used for the .257 Weatherby handloads previously mentioned has them.

My Hornady FL sizer for 308 Winchester has some built in slack in the grooves/threads that keep the expander/decapper rod from slipping out of its retaining nut. It allows the elliptical expander ball to follow the hole in the case neck quite well. The die sizes brass straight, but it's really tight in the body/shoulder section. I use it only if I want to size brass to like new diameter and taper.

+1
Yeah, Forester BR is what I bought moons ago to set up by 7 mags.

Made you feel like you’d been reloading like a pro for years straight out of the gate while dialing in a custom load.

Buy components>load 3 separate loads>go shoot.

Rifle A:
1 – 61 grains, 3 shots close together
2 – 63 grains, 3 shots tighten up
3 – 65 grains, 3 shots cloverleaf.
4 - Done

Rifle B (backup, duplicate of A)
1 – 61 grains, 3 shots close together
2 – 63 grains, 3 shots tighten up
3 – 65 grains, 3 shots cloverleaf.
4 - Done

Go home clean guns, open beer bottle, take a gulp…ah, that was easy.

Next weekend load 50 for gun A. Following weekend, load 50 for gun B. Wait for hunting season.

Disadvantages of using Forester BR, you don’t get to tinker around, and have additional fun, like these guys. You only get to read about it.

If you measure the eccentricity of the ammo and components at each stage, the advantage of Clarence Purdie's 1960s patent on a sliding sleeve seater die is small, on the order of < 0.001".
That is now off patent, and Forster/Bonanza/GOPHER SHOOTER'S SUPPLY COMPANY are not longer the only source.
Meanwhile the expander ball is capable of over 0.004" of eccentricity. Any more than that, and the factory chamber often straightens the cartridge down to 0.004" bent.

Going through the whole reloading process, the expander ball will typically be causing 90% of the error.
The effect on the target of that error depends on the error magnitude, and/or the tightness of the chamber.



from "The American Rifleman" ~ 55 years ago, and the NRA told me it is ok to quote. I used some software to pull text out of the scan of the old book.

"Gauging Bullet Tilt"

THE MOST PRECISE AMMUNITION
FROM A LOT CAN BE SELECTED
WITH A BULLET ALIGNMENT GAUGE.

By A. A. ABBATIELLO

Other factors being normal, bullet
tilt with respect to the case center-
line affects group size. If the barrel
length and twist are known, it has been
found possible to predict the direction
from the group center in which the tilted
bullet will strike. If the amount of tilt
is known, the distance from the group
center can be predicted.
Significant score improvement has
been noted by those who have tried
such gauged ammunition.
In cal. .30 long-range shooting, the
best match-grade ammunition will group
in one to 2 minutes of angle under test
conditions. Part of this spread is due
to the bullet tilt with respect to the
case centerline, imposed by the bullet-
seating tool. This tilt displaces the bul-
let’s center of gravity slightly to one
side; in bullets such as the cal. .30 Ml,
the amount is about 1/8 the displace-
ment of the bullet point. It enlarges
groups by amounts up to one minute.
These deviations become proportion-
ately less as the tilt is reduced. Tilts
over .O04" do not seem to increase the
dispersion of the group beyond the ex-
pected one minute. Perhaps this is
because a well-fitting chamber has a
tendency to straighten any rounds
which are excessively tilted. Other ex-
planations are possible.
The gauge consists of a V-block
which permits rotating the round about
the bullet point and 2 tangent spots
near the case head. A dial indicator
which reads in tenths of thousandths of
an inch (.0OO1") bears on the bullet
near the case neck. Half the total indica-
tor reading is used as the displacement
for determining the classes into which
the rounds are separated. The high point
is also marked at this time for orienta-
tion of the round in the rifle chamber.
Rounds with .0O2" tilt or less can
be considered good enough for long-
range use, while those with .O03" and
.OO4" tilt are best used only at short
ranges. In general, it was concluded
from target results that each .0Ol" of
tilt will increase the group spread about
1/4 minute of angle, up to a maximum
of .OO4" as mentioned above.
Under test conditions, it was found
that when the rounds were chambered
with the high point always in the same
orientation, the groups were smaller
than when it was randomly oriented.
Gauging and orienting the rounds can
produce the smallest groups of which
that ammunition is capable.
These ammunition refinements are
becoming important, particularly in
long-range matches.
The essentials of the tilted bullet were
discussed in detail no less than 50 years
ago by Dr. F. W. Mann in his book
"The Bullets In Flight". He pointed out that
the balance of the bullet and the spiral
path of the center of gravity are of
high importance in accuracy.

Following a discussion between
George L. Jacobsen of Frankford Arse-
al and the writer at the 1959 National
matches, a trial of the effect of neck
concentricity was carried out by Jacob-
sen. He described his results in ".30-’O6
Cartridge Cases And Accuracy", which
appeared in THE AMERICAN RIFLEMAN,
January 1960, page 20.

SEATING TOOL A FACTOR

The effects which Jacobsen found,
though small, are essentially in agree-
ment with the work reported here.
However, he did not separate the effects
of neck eccentricity and the bullet cen-
ter-of-gravity location with respect to
the bore. The angular direction of the
bullet seating tool is a controlling factor
in the initial position given to the bullet,
rather than merely case neck eccen-
tricity. Case necks can be centered or
eccentric, and the bullet can be inclined
in completely random directions. The
tilted bullet is believed to be the main
cause for center—of-gravity side shift.
The cal. .30 boattail bullet of 173 grs.
weight was selected for these tests be-
cause it is in common use and is of
sufficiently high quality for use in the
National Matches.
Using the gauge shown, 42 ammuni-
tion lots were sampled and the high
point was marked on each round gauged.
These rounds were grouped in steps of
.OO1" bullet tilt, and the data tabu-
lated. The results gave a bell—shaped
curve for 829 rounds of match ammu-
nition, peaking at about .0O2" (see
illustration). Measurements on Service
ball ammunition produced a curve of
similar shape, but peaking at about
.0025" tilt.
This graphically illustrates that even
match-grade ammunition has appreci-
able variations. There is a large spread
among particular lots and boxes. In
general, 10% to 20% of each lot, de-
pending on ammunition quality, falls
into .0O3", .0O4" or even up to .O10"
tilt. Run-of-the-mill ammunition can
thereby enlarge groups to about twice
the size which the same ammunition
can show when it is gauged before firing.
Since the tilt angle of the bullet is
so small (about 1/4 °) it is difficult to
perceive visually. The gauge, however,
makes the sorting a fast, routine step.
A mathematical solution of this prob-
lem was also tried (see box) and is in
good agreement with the results ob-
tained. It is gratifying to find the math-
ematical solution and the experimental
results in agreement.



MATHEMATICAL SOLUTION

A laterally displaced center of
gravity moves through the rifle bore
in a helical (screw) path. The pitch
of this helix is the pitch of rifling,
and its radius is the lateral displace-
ment of the center of gravity. On
leaving the muzzle, the center of
gravity continues in the direction it
had at that point. For example, if it
leaves at top of the bore and rifling
is to the right, the departure will be
to the right. The bullet travels ap-
proximately 2l.5" in a 24" barrel,
making 2.15 turns in the 10" twist
of rifling. The number of turns
shows the orientation on emergence
compared with that in the chamber
before firing. The angle of emer-
gence is that angle whose tangent is
2 pi times the lateral displacement
divided by the rifling pitch. For
.004" point displacement and I0"
rifling pitch, the tangent is 1/8(2·pi)
(.004)/l0 and the corresponding
angle is 1.1 minutes.
The displacement on target from
this cause is proportional to the
range and can be obtained without
noting the angle. For example, ,004"
point displacement gives in l0"
rifling pitch, so far as this mecha-
nism goes, a target displacement at
100 yds. (3600") indicated by the
proportion .00l· pi /10=X/3600, from
which x =1.1".

ClarkM,
I am looking for my copy of the Jacobson article which is similarly interesting as it describes the testing methodology that he employed and it also gives a peek at how the arsenals did/do their testing.

ChrisF,
I don't have info on Jacobson.
For many years I suspected that A. A. ABBATIELLO was a made up pen name to get the front of alphabetical order, but now I see he was a researcher at Oak Ridge in 1945.

A friend of mine is a High Master F-class shooter. I don't know much about that game. He always fully resizes and never neck sizes. He's doing this with a .284 Winchester. I neck sized for case life and ease, not for accuracy.

Pharm

Wow, 9 pages & 89 posts. Y'all must be striving for B R accuracy. - NO offense intended.

As 16 Bore said TO ME, " you are wearing me out".

I'm only looking for hunting accuracy and that's BETTER than 1 1/2" - 2". I mean, I won't settle for MORE than 1" @ 100 yds.

Also 400 yds is the average LONG shot that I seldom get, so IFn I was trying to shoot 600-1000 yds, I'd try harder.

I keep going back to the Lee collet neck sizer. No expander ball, cases are sized straight.

For hunting accuracy it seems to me the neck collet sizer decreases critical neck thickness as a factor. I have rounds where I turn necks, have BR type dies, Wilson seaters, etc. As the neck is sized against the mandrel, some neck thickness variation doesn't seem to me as being that critical.

I'm loading ammo with very little run out, rounds checked and if needed, R/O corrected with a TruAngle tool.

I'm not saying this is as good as a high end BR set up, but for the money and the convenience, it's hard to beat for loading accurate, concentric hunting ammo.

DF

Keep doing that, DF. Until you start shooting benchrest, the Lee collet die and a Redding body die are the cheapest, easiest and fastest.

Don't overthink it.

Overthinking not one of my strong points...

What's even cheaper than a Redding body die is a gutted Lee FL die. The Lee 4 die set contain FL and neck collet dies, often not much more expensive than a reg set. As posted earlier here's a body die in the making.

DF

I will just point out that the dies used to shoot sub-half-inch groups (and not just 3-shot) from a .257 Weatherby NULA are the basic RCBS 2-die set, purchased for around $25 at a local store. The only "modification" was to raise the expander ball just under the neck portion of the FL sizing die. They've resulted in tiny groups with two .257 Weatherbys, the first a Vanguard Sporter (walnut stock) that grouped three 100-grain TSX's (before TTSX's appeared in 2007) into 1 to 1-1/2 inches at 300 yards.

I used my first Lee collet dies the first year they appeared, which as I recall was over 20 years ago, and they work great. But there is more than one way to produce straight ammo with "cheap" dies. Have accomplished the same thing with various other brands of standard dies.

BTW -- Thanks M D.

hmmmmm. I hate to say this.................. really..................That's what I've been doing for many years.
Cheap,......Simple......Effective.......No Muss.......No Fuss------> whatdayaknow?

BTW, I DON'T like the Lee rubber O ring sizer. I only have 1 set, won't get another.

Yes, but most people do not have the skills required to modify existing dies.

This is a classic example of why the KISS principle is appropriate here. (Keep It Simple, Stupid). I too, used Lee collet dies when they first appeared, and have also special ordered other dies for cartridges that are not regular production.Those special order dies came from RCBS, CH4D and Lee. It was easier. With the exception of an RCBS neck sizing 303 Epps die, they all arrived within a month. For the majority of reloaders, Lee and Redding have provided the tools to ease run out and other problems.

There is usually more than one way to skin a cat, but in most cases simplicity is best.

The next size up FL die you already have is pretty cheap too.

There are different amounts of "fully" resizing. Your friend is probably sizing the full extent of the case just a little bit, rather than sizing it fully down to new out of the box dimensions.

Most FL dies don't resize cases to new dimensions. Maybe small-base dies do, but I've never used any, because even when loading for semiautos have never had any need to.

Yep, in some cases that is an easier solution.

The one you see being altered with the Dremel is a .22-250.

My best option in this case was grinding out the neck, which due to hardness of the die, takes some doing.

DF

Of course you are right, but I've found most will size down a good bit more than necessary if the typical directions supplied with the die are followed. I had a particular one of mine in mind that isn't marked small base but does size to like new, so like new dimensions flowed forth as I typed. (At least if you'll accept the rather generous definition of flowing forth required to make it apply to my typing ability. )

"Flowing forth!" I like it....

Yeah, I've encountered some FL dies that sized more than others, because like rifle chambers they vary with the wear on the reamer.

I have a Hornady FL die for 308 Winchester that is definitely on the tight side with respect to reducing the body of the case to near new dimensions, particularly at the body/shoulder junction since it puts a like new taper on the body of the case. Even so, it does not move the shoulder back too much. As a result it is particularly useful for truing up new "bag brass" with banana tendencies or big dings.

I have something like six or eight FL size dies for 308 Win alone, and they all have their uses. Loonyism indicator for sure.

Yes, indeed!

My .308 loonyism takes a different form: I just keep acquiring more .308 rifles, while handloading for all of them with Forster dies--my very first set of Forsters, purchased years ago.

Are you sorting your brass by rifle?

I like your idea of removing the neck from the full length die in the 4 die set. That's a good one, and simple enough that most people should be able to get it done, and saves the cost of buying a separate body die.

As pointed out by Mathman, going to the next caliber up FL sizer within the same case family, makes sense.

When not, reaming the neck with a Dremel is a good option and isn't that hard to do. I had to find a well used grinding bit to fit inside the .224 neck. All you need is enough clearance so the case neck is clear 360*s.

DF

Steve,

Assuming your question about sorting brass by rifle was directed toward me, yes I am. Have several brands on hand, from Remington to RWS, and use each of them in different rifles.

So, you're assigning certain brands of brass/ammo to certain rifles. That makes sense.

Curious about equal justice for all. Do the most accurate rifles end up with the best brass? Premium brass for premium rifles? That would be discriminatory...

Checking on how P.C. you are...

DF

It was. I have done this for years. I was curious if you did this as well. For me, it is 303s and 308s. I have several rifles chambered for each.

Yes, that's right. He is.

It's a great way to go.

For military surplus rifles that have larger chambers, I use mil cases because of the extra brass.

I have a heavy barreled commercial 308 that has a minimum chamber. One of four 308s that have dedicated brass. All are Lapua. When I first did load work ups for it, I was using IVI 7.62 brass. Switching to Lapua meant increasing the powder load. The thinner Lapua case held 2.7 grains (ww) more than the IVI. I fired various weights of Varget, and the rifle told me it liked a 1.5 grain change. The group size didn't change between the two cases. Both shoot in the .4s.

The 303s don't group as tightly, but they all have original barrels. I have two that will hold an inch at vintage rifle matches. I reworked the triggers, packed the stocks and mounted a 4 power scope on one. Irons on the other. I use Remington cases for the two target rifles. Each has 200 cases that are only used in that rifle. I have tried Win, Norma and PP with these, but there was no change, so I never bothered switching.

Expensive brass might work better in modern manufactured rifles or rebarreled actions, but not always.

I've avoided multiple rifles chambered for the same round, but looks like you and JB have it figured out.

DF

It was a natural progression for me. I was shooting military rifle matches with the two cartridges, in and out of service. Trying to find an edge, while complying with the rules, meant exploring different recipes and allowable rifle tweaks. I have two 303s that only shot 174 gr.Sierra Mks. One that only has my 200 grain homemade jacketed bullets shot through it.

The 308 bullet world keeps changing. I have a Tikka HB that loved 168 gr. Hornady AMaxes, but they discontinued that bullet. The Nat'l Match does almost as well, but not quite.

There's always an excuse to try something new.

Dirtfarrmer,

I generally avoid owning more than one rifle chambered for the same cartridge as well. Once owned 6 .30-06's at the same time, and eventually decided that was more hassle than it was worth, despite all of them being different somehow. One was a Sauer drilling, another a Ruger No.1, two others were "traditional" CRF bolt-actions with walnut stocks, one a 98 Mauser and the other a pre-'64 Model 70, another a lever-action, and the sixth a New Ultra Light Arms. Eventually weeded all those down to the NULA.

But somehow .223's and .308's seem to be exempt from that policy. Plus there's the fact that Eileen has her own rifles, and while she knows how to handload, anymore is often too busy to do so. And her "big" big game rifle is a .308. I treat her right and use RWS brass for it.

M D

I must have found a 4 leaf clover. I have 2 Mod Six 270s and a T 3 Lite SS 270

ALL use the SAME reloaded ammo. Sized, OAL, & Charge.

Thank You Lucky Stars.

I did NOT expect that to be the case (situation).

The porch light's on, but nobody's home...

Aww. Should be good for another 5-6 pages...

DF

Maybe not. After six pages no expander ball proponents have surfaced. I can think of how they might be useful, but I'm not going to put my head up over the trench.

Given the wide range of equipment and supplies, expander balls are good for beginner reloaders.... so the bullet can be seated in the case mouth and stay there.

But expander balls have been for decades *, the bane of experienced handloaders in the quest for more accuracy.

* per documents predating www gun forums.

Well I'm disappointed to see you, D F are a manure stirrer.

My specialty...

DF

I used to try neck sizing,turn`n necks anything to try and shoot tiny groups but after a while my good friend who was an ballistic expert for Federal and my uncle who was a engineer for federal with his name on patents with Federal, both told me your not shoot`n mice your shoot`n deer just use good loads that shoot close to an inch maybe a little more its not a big deal. when I shot 100-200 yard bench my eyes kinda got even more opened a telephone lineman from way out east came to a match and kicked everyones butt, this dude could shoot and he had won national titles too. well some of us went to the bar and he liked beer too so we had a great time and he had a much simpler way of reloading his 6 ppc, here`s what he did : solvent cleaned his cases after they were used each time,lightly lube those cases and used just a Redding standard resizing die every time after he shot those cases. checked length and loaded those 10 cases very carefully and he always left the expander ball in but had it just a little higher for a light touch. this bench rest shooter was one heck of shot with tiny little groups on those benches .

Meh. I still use the expander ball in almost all of my die sets. Adequate neck lube and brass prep goes a long way, as does finding a good load that's tolerant of dimensional and component variations.

I consider the expander ball essential for bulk packed brass that have distorted, dented and slightly crushed case mouths. If not too bad the Lee Collet die will work especially if tapered and polished as I mentioned before, but still not as good as the expander which is larger in diameter. I do set them as high as I can per Mule Deer's recommendation.

BTW -- Thanks M D.

hmmmmm. I hate to say this.................. really..................That's what I've been doing for many years.
Cheap,......Simple......Effective.......No Muss.......No Fuss------> whatdayaknow?

I do like UNcomplicated ! !

Yet, despite claiming that I'm on ignore, he keeps peeking.

Sometimes simple and uncomplicated works great and sometimes it doesn't.

I've done some handloading for a friend's Browning Low Wall in 260 Remington, also using a vanilla RCBS two die set. As luck would have it the sizing die and rifle chamber are well matched in the important dimensions. Furthermore the neck section of the die is perfect for the batch of brass I've been using. It squeezes the neck down just enough so the expander ball just kisses it on the way out. So simple works great here.

OTOH, I have a Redding FL size die for 308 Winchester whose neck section is quite tight. If I size a piece of brass w/o the expander in place the neck can come out below .330" in diameter. (This dimension can vary depending on the amount of resistance/springback the brass provides because of thickness and state of work hardening.) For typical WW brass this is all right, but the batches of Lapua brass I have only need sizing to .336" for the neck tension I want. So this brass is being worked .012" more than necessary on the sizing stroke, and even with a carbide ball and good lube in the case necks the resulting runout isn't so good. If I size them with this die w/o the ball, and expand using a tapered mandrel in a subsequent step, then the runout is fine. (Even so, the brass is still being worked more than I like so I use other dies for Lapua.)

As Scott Adams says, ~"Everyone does things for emotional reasons, and then justifies it with complicated data and calculations. Some engineers and scientists are forced to be logical and use scientific method for a few minutes a year, but then snap back to the emotional state like everyone else."

When I see the counterexample of the .257 Weatherby it reminds me of one of my screw ups that was an opportunity to learn.
I designed an amplifier for the Eclipse jet that was mass produced and computer tested. I had ~ 100 parts that were 1% tolerance that could affect gain.
Worst worst case the gain could be anywhere from minus 10 to positive 1000. The gain was supposed to be 100.
In production there was a Gaussian [bell curve] distribution from ~98 to ~102.

My intuitive feel was that errors would be evenly distributed in outcome.
My shock was that almost all errors were canceled by other errors.

I have shot a 0.1" group with a 1917 Sav 99 take down with a 6mmBR bull barrel screwed into it.
Nothing on that lever action is anywhere near square.
I quit truing bolt actions.
That was before the computer tested the amplifier.
Now I see the error of my ways don't add linearly.

Which supports the age old adage, "Don't overthink it."

Thanks M M

"Sometimes simple and uncomplicated works great and sometimes it doesn't.

I've done some handloading for a friend's Browning Low Wall in 260 Remington, also using a vanilla RCBS two die set. As luck would have it the sizing die and rifle chamber are well matched in the important dimensions. Furthermore the neck section of the die is perfect for the batch of brass I've been using. It squeezes the neck down just enough so the expander ball just kisses it on the way out. So simple works great here".

Yep, I've hit a stump or 2 here & there but mostly pretty clear sailing. I ONLY had 1 rifle that I could NOT make shoot. I returned it to Morgan Utah, they worked on the bedding and the bolt -- that I could SEE.

Same ol, Same ol. Returned to dealer - traded for a LNIB 700 same cal/cart. FIRST group 3/4".


I learned in mechanics, construction, loading, etc...... DON'T do the complicated FIRST.

Thnx Again

Makes sense to me, but I don't see mention of when and how decapping occurs. So, for a standard RCBS 2 die set is this workable?

Pull the decapper/expander stem out of the die, resize the brass (which leaves the cap in place).

Screw the stem back in, but set the decapper to protrude 1/2 inch or more out of the mouth of the die, instead of the usual 3/16 or so - this to keep the expander low in the die and avoid the case re-entering the neck resizing portion of the die. This should allow the the expander to do its job when pushed into the neck without reducing the neck again, and decap at the same time.

I use an inexpensive dedicated decapper die from Lee.

Simple is best.

Yep, me too. But I also went to turret presses at least a dozen years ago, which save so much of the time formerly spent screwing dies in and out of a single-hole press. The Lee decapper stays in one of the holes.

I've been doing my last limbing in areas I hunt. Temp is not bad. Humidity is ^ ^^ feels like 95-100*
Found another FRESH --- small scrape that was not there yesterday.
Been trying to catch up here.

M D, I understand your situation, writer, experimentER, tester, MULTIPLE cartridges/ calibers. It makes sense.

I don't have to do volumes of loading at any one time. I like my RCBS Rock Chucker press and I 'normally' only hunt 2 diff rifles during season. IF, otoh, I was doing ANYwhere near the loading YOU do, I'd CERTAINLY have progressive pressES
and leave certain individual dies in place.

Makes sense to me, but I don't see mention of when and how decapping occurs. So, for a standard RCBS 2 die set is this workable?

Pull the decapper/expander stem out of the die, resize the brass (which leaves the cap in place).

Screw the stem back in, but set the decapper to protrude 1/2 inch or more out of the mouth of the die, instead of the usual 3/16 or so - this to keep the expander low in the die and avoid the case re-entering the neck resizing portion of the die. This should allow the the expander to do its job when pushed into the neck without reducing the neck again, and decap at the same time.



09/19/2018 - No replies so this follow up...

From later comments, it looks like some don't consider this a simple proposal. Just two steps, resize case the first pass, and expand the neck and decap the second pass. That's not simple?

The question is, would setting up the expander/decapping stem as envisioned work or not?

That should work, but the only way to find out is try it out.

I suspect the practicality might depend on the cartridge.

[quote=Mule Deer]That should work, but the only way to find out is try it out.

I suspect the practicality might depend on the cartridge.



MD - I gave my die adjustment proposal a try yesterday for 7mm-08. Since this was un-tried, I only used 5 cases.

Sized the cases in the bare die, and all seemed good. Screwed the stem back in and proceeded. Ended up having the decapper extending 3/4 inch out of the die, which left the expander also partly out. Used an O-ring on the stem above the die, and the stem definitely had some freedom to follow the case neck.

Everything went as planned, expander went smoothly into the neck, cap fell out, and expander came back out with very little resistance. Necks didn't get resized down again.

Loaded the cases as per usual, and bullet seating felt normal. Results were mixed, got 3 straight rounds and 2 with small but significant wobble on a glass plate.

So I guess I'm not sure that pushing the expander into the neck is far superior to pulling it out. Anything I might have done different? May try a larger batch to see if this run was a fluke.

Pushing the expander into the sized-down neck isn't always far superior to pulling it out, but it's one trick for standard dies that often works. As does setting the expander ball as high as possible inside the die.

Over the decades since I started fooling with bullet run-out in my handloads, I've run into a bunch of solutions that work, the reason I've never claimed any single one is The Answer.

MD, doesn't "the right solution" depend on your rifle's chamber and the size of your fired brass vs the internal dimensions of your die and thickness of the brass you're using?

And a few other things I'm sure I left out.


Never mind, I went back and saw that mathman beat me to it........

I've been telling my buddies for years that the expander ball is pulling their necks crooked. One of them has finally listened. The ball is good for pushing stuff to the outside before you neck turn and maybe straightening out dinged-up necks. That's about it. For dedicated hunting rifles, I have honed dies from both Redding and Forster. The last time I had this done, however, they wouldn't do it to my "specs" but rather would only do it if I supplied once-fired cases. The engineer told me, over the phone, that he was smarter than me and knew more about reloading and not to second guess them. I haven't had any honed since then!!

This is a good idea but neck wall thickness variance is an enemy when doing that

Agree.

I think that would be for BR and target shooters with highly refined brass, turned necks at a constant thickness...

I'm not that serious a shooter. The Lee Neck Collet sizer is about as high tech as I need/want to go, maybe add Wilson seaters, Sinclair gauge and TruAngle.

I can load ammo that's more accurate than I can shoot. No need to climb higher up that mountain.

Not for me, anyway.

DF

Have done the honed die deal, and also lucked out a few times with inexpensive dies being just right for the brass I had on hand. As Ted pointed out, the brass has to have consistent neck thickness to work well. I got good results by sorting brass, but these days the reject rate is a little high with some brands.

With brass that tends to be a less consistent in neck thickmess, either raising the expander ball, or using Forster or Lee collet dies works better.

I am curious as to how long your bench is. Or perhaps, you have two or three. I have two, but I tend to use a smaller table in the office more than the other. Over the years, I ended up with four SS presses in the office, and three in my reloading room. The smartest addition I bought was a bench grinder stand. I put a Rock Chucker and a Lubrizer on it. The stand is in my office.

The grinder stand sits beside an old 3x3 table that's in my office. The table once held a table saw. Some equipment migrated to the office because I would be working in my office and needed to try something. In many cases, it was convenient to have a press by my office desk.

I suppose I could have bought a multi-stage press, but I had two Rock Chuckers and a Redding Boss. It was easier and cheaper to use them. When Lee brought out their universal decapper, I installed that on an old Lee 2001 press.

I am going to invest in a tool cabinet like this for the office. Right now, I'm using traditional shelves. They take up too much room.

Good advice Steve. Need a "How long is your bench"? thread with photos.

I went to setting up multiple single stage presses as I am not a high volume re-loader but eventually I will get turret presses. The main advantage for me is the consistency as I can screw up almost any setup up each time I unscrew them. I have put witness marks on the screws and always have dummy rounds but Murphy can still sneak into the reloading room in spite of my best efforts.

I'd be scared a "How long is your bench" thread would turn into fight over which brand is best.

Any "how long is your___" thread here won't end well...

DF

Just can't let it get cluttered...

DF

My primary bench, set up in our garage/shop, is 18 feet long. Right now it includes:

At the left end, an RCBS Trim-Pro power tool, along with several manual powder measures set up to clamp onto various places on the heavy shelf running along the left side of the bench. Above the Trim-Pro are shelves holding the 50 or so sets of dies currently in use.

Next, from left to right:
A Redding T7 turret press (my primary rifle/handgun press for many years).
Lyman's new 8-hole turret press, because I'm still testing it.
Lee's simplest single-stage C-press, mostly used for pulling bullets with an RCBS collet tool, and priming oddball cases.
A plywood platform where I interchangeably C-clamp several tools--28, 20, 16, and 12-gauge shotgun presses, a Gracey power case trimmer, a power grinder, whatever's needed--or being tested.

Also have another 8-foot bench in the basement of our house, primarily for the rare occasions when the winter weather's too cold for the Ashley wood stove in the garage/shop. At one end is Eileen's press, a Redding Ultramag, along with the dies for all her cartridges. At the other is my second Redding T7. In between is a Forster manual case trimmer. There's a shelf underneath for various components.

I always found that when I was writing, it was easier to explain something, or take pictures, when I used a table in my office. That was before a laptop appeared in the house. There are times when I wish that my office and shop were on the same floor. It would make things easier, but as things grew, I adapted to the changes.

I have to re-organize and clean up again. It seems to happen a couple of times a year. Things get spread between the two places and disappear for a time.