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Joined: Jan 2001
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Maybe not. After six pages no expander ball proponents have surfaced. I can think of how they might be useful, but I'm not going to put my head up over the trench.
Brushbuster: "Is this thread about the dear heard or there Jeans?"
Plugger: "If you cant be safe at strip club in Detroit at 2am is anywhere safe?"
Deer are somewhere all the time
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Joined: Feb 2003
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Given the wide range of equipment and supplies, expander balls are good for beginner reloaders.... so the bullet can be seated in the case mouth and stay there.
But expander balls have been for decades *, the bane of experienced handloaders in the quest for more accuracy.
* per documents predating www gun forums.
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. -Ernest Hemingway
The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything.-- Edward John Phelps
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2010
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*** You Are Ignoring This Loser *** The porch light's on, but nobody's home...  Aww. Should be good for another 5-6 pages...  DF Well I'm disappointed to see you, D F are a manure stirrer. 
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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Joined: Nov 2010
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
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Well I'm disappointed to see you, D F are a manure stirrer. My specialty...  DF
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Joined: Dec 2015
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I used to try neck sizing,turn`n necks anything to try and shoot tiny groups but after a while my good friend who was an ballistic expert for Federal and my uncle who was a engineer for federal with his name on patents with Federal, both told me your not shoot`n mice your shoot`n deer just use good loads that shoot close to an inch maybe a little more its not a big deal. when I shot 100-200 yard bench my eyes kinda got even more opened a telephone lineman from way out east came to a match and kicked everyones butt, this dude could shoot and he had won national titles too. well some of us went to the bar and he liked beer too so we had a great time and he had a much simpler way of reloading his 6 ppc, here`s what he did : solvent cleaned his cases after they were used each time,lightly lube those cases and used just a Redding standard resizing die every time after he shot those cases. checked length and loaded those 10 cases very carefully and he always left the expander ball in but had it just a little higher for a light touch. this bench rest shooter was one heck of shot with tiny little groups on those benches .
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2010
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jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,755
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Maybe not. After six pages no expander ball proponents have surfaced. I can think of how they might be useful, but I'm not going to put my head up over the trench. Meh. I still use the expander ball in almost all of my die sets. Adequate neck lube and brass prep goes a long way, as does finding a good load that's tolerant of dimensional and component variations.
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 7,263
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2008
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I consider the expander ball essential for bulk packed brass that have distorted, dented and slightly crushed case mouths. If not too bad the Lee Collet die will work especially if tapered and polished as I mentioned before, but still not as good as the expander which is larger in diameter. I do set them as high as I can per Mule Deer's recommendation.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2010
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I will just point out that the dies used to shoot sub-half-inch groups (and not just 3-shot) from a .257 Weatherby NULA are the basic RCBS 2-die set, purchased for around $25 at a local store. The only "modification" was to raise the expander ball just under the neck portion of the FL sizing die. . BTW -- Thanks M D. hmmmmm. I hate to say this.................. really..................That's what I've been doing for many years. Cheap,......Simple......Effective.......No Muss.......No Fuss------> whatdayaknow? I do like UNcomplicated ! !
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,748 Likes: 6
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2001
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The porch light's on, but nobody's home... Aww. Should be good for another 5-6 pages... DF Yet, despite claiming that I'm on ignore, he keeps peeking. ![[Linked Image]](https://boardofwisdom.com/cachetogo/images/quotes/468892.png)
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/AP39Jhm.jpg)
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Joined: Jun 2004
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,892 Likes: 12 |
I will just point out that the dies used to shoot sub-half-inch groups (and not just 3-shot) from a .257 Weatherby NULA are the basic RCBS 2-die set, purchased for around $25 at a local store. The only "modification" was to raise the expander ball just under the neck portion of the FL sizing die. . BTW -- Thanks M D. hmmmmm. I hate to say this.................. really..................That's what I've been doing for many years. Cheap,......Simple......Effective.......No Muss.......No Fuss------> whatdayaknow? I do like UNcomplicated ! ! Sometimes simple and uncomplicated works great and sometimes it doesn't. I've done some handloading for a friend's Browning Low Wall in 260 Remington, also using a vanilla RCBS two die set. As luck would have it the sizing die and rifle chamber are well matched in the important dimensions. Furthermore the neck section of the die is perfect for the batch of brass I've been using. It squeezes the neck down just enough so the expander ball just kisses it on the way out. So simple works great here. OTOH, I have a Redding FL size die for 308 Winchester whose neck section is quite tight. If I size a piece of brass w/o the expander in place the neck can come out below .330" in diameter. (This dimension can vary depending on the amount of resistance/springback the brass provides because of thickness and state of work hardening.) For typical WW brass this is all right, but the batches of Lapua brass I have only need sizing to .336" for the neck tension I want. So this brass is being worked .012" more than necessary on the sizing stroke, and even with a carbide ball and good lube in the case necks the resulting runout isn't so good. If I size them with this die w/o the ball, and expand using a tapered mandrel in a subsequent step, then the runout is fine. (Even so, the brass is still being worked more than I like so I use other dies for Lapua.)
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Joined: Feb 2003
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Sometimes simple and uncomplicated works great and sometimes it doesn't. As Scott Adams says, ~"Everyone does things for emotional reasons, and then justifies it with complicated data and calculations. Some engineers and scientists are forced to be logical and use scientific method for a few minutes a year, but then snap back to the emotional state like everyone else." When I see the counterexample of the .257 Weatherby it reminds me of one of my screw ups that was an opportunity to learn. I designed an amplifier for the Eclipse jet that was mass produced and computer tested. I had ~ 100 parts that were 1% tolerance that could affect gain. Worst worst case the gain could be anywhere from minus 10 to positive 1000. The gain was supposed to be 100. In production there was a Gaussian [bell curve] distribution from ~98 to ~102. My intuitive feel was that errors would be evenly distributed in outcome. My shock was that almost all errors were canceled by other errors. I have shot a 0.1" group with a 1917 Sav 99 take down with a 6mmBR bull barrel screwed into it. Nothing on that lever action is anywhere near square. I quit truing bolt actions. That was before the computer tested the amplifier. Now I see the error of my ways don't add linearly.
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. -Ernest Hemingway
The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything.-- Edward John Phelps
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Joined: Apr 2001
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2001
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Which supports the age old adage, "Don't overthink it."
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179 |
Thanks M M " Sometimes simple and uncomplicated works great and sometimes it doesn't.
I've done some handloading for a friend's Browning Low Wall in 260 Remington, also using a vanilla RCBS two die set. As luck would have it the sizing die and rifle chamber are well matched in the important dimensions. Furthermore the neck section of the die is perfect for the batch of brass I've been using. It squeezes the neck down just enough so the expander ball just kisses it on the way out. So simple works great here".Yep, I've hit a stump or 2 here & there but mostly pretty clear sailing. I ONLY had 1 rifle that I could NOT make shoot. I returned it to Morgan Utah, they worked on the bedding and the bolt -- that I could SEE. Same ol, Same ol. Returned to dealer - traded for a LNIB 700 same cal/cart. FIRST group 3/4".  I learned in mechanics, construction, loading, etc...... DON'T do the complicated FIRST. Thnx Again
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 970
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Posts: 970 |
What might be the dumbest question of the day posted on the innanets - how do you push the expander ball through the neck but not pull it back out, just like a normal resizing step? It is quite possible I'm not visualizing this correctly....... This makes a huge difference in ammo concentricity, and thus precision. Shell holders pulling a tiny neck case over the expander ball, makes the neck bigger and bent. 1) Take the expander ball or stem out. 2) Resize the brass. 3) Put the expander ball or expander ball/ decapping stem back into the die. 4) Size the brass again, but only far enough to get the expander ball to go through the neck, do not downsize the neck again. 5) The case is now sized, the neck is big enough to seat and bullet and small enough to hold a bullet. The neck is only 10% as bent as it would be if sized and expander balling were done in one step. The reason this makes a difference is that shell holders pull at an angle, while they push straight. If your FL sizer die has been honed out to 0.002" smaller than the loaded ammo, the expander ball will probably not make the neck bent. The reason for the expander ball existence, is that the neck in the sizer die is so much smaller than optimum that the bullet may not be seatable. Other companies off the same service, but I have paid $10 to Forster to hone out the neck of a sizer die. I have done this over a dozen times. To hone out a 25-06 die to my 6.5-06 specifications, that was a lot more than $10 and a lot of talking, as that is a lot of honing. In 280AI [not offered by Forster], which I am building (4) rifles right now, I have honed out dies myself. That is to be avoided. Dies are hard. Makes sense to me, but I don't see mention of when and how decapping occurs. So, for a standard RCBS 2 die set is this workable? Pull the decapper/expander stem out of the die, resize the brass (which leaves the cap in place). Screw the stem back in, but set the decapper to protrude 1/2 inch or more out of the mouth of the die, instead of the usual 3/16 or so - this to keep the expander low in the die and avoid the case re-entering the neck resizing portion of the die. This should allow the the expander to do its job when pushed into the neck without reducing the neck again, and decap at the same time.
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Joined: Jun 2004
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,892 Likes: 12 |
I use an inexpensive dedicated decapper die from Lee.
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,748 Likes: 6
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2001
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Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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Joined: Jul 2001
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,211 Likes: 26 |
Yep, me too. But I also went to turret presses at least a dozen years ago, which save so much of the time formerly spent screwing dies in and out of a single-hole press. The Lee decapper stays in one of the holes.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179 |
Yep, me too. But I also went to turret presses at least a dozen years ago, which save so much of the time formerly spent screwing dies in and out of a single-hole press. The Lee decapper stays in one of the holes. I've been doing my last limbing in areas I hunt. Temp is not bad. Humidity is ^ ^^ feels like 95-100* Found another FRESH --- small scrape that was not there yesterday. Been trying to catch up here. M D, I understand your situation, writer, experimentER, tester, MULTIPLE cartridges/ calibers. It makes sense. I don't have to do volumes of loading at any one time. I like my RCBS Rock Chucker press and I 'normally' only hunt 2 diff rifles during season. IF, otoh, I was doing ANYwhere near the loading YOU do, I'd CERTAINLY have progressive pressES and leave certain individual dies in place.
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 970
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 970 |
[quote=bwinters]
What might be the dumbest question of the day posted on the innanets - how do you push the expander ball through the neck but not pull it back out, just like a normal resizing step? It is quite possible I'm not visualizing this correctly....... This makes a huge difference in ammo concentricity, and thus precision. Shell holders pulling a tiny neck case over the expander ball, makes the neck bigger and bent. 1) Take the expander ball or stem out. 2) Resize the brass. 3) Put the expander ball or expander ball/ decapping stem back into the die. 4) Size the brass again, but only far enough to get the expander ball to go through the neck, do not downsize the neck again. 5) The case is now sized, the neck is big enough to seat and bullet and small enough to hold a bullet. The neck is only 10% as bent as it would be if sized and expander balling were done in one step. The reason this makes a difference is that shell holders pull at an angle, while they push straight. If your FL sizer die has been honed out to 0.002" smaller than the loaded ammo, the expander ball will probably not make the neck bent. The reason for the expander ball existence, is that the neck in the sizer die is so much smaller than optimum that the bullet may not be seatable. Other companies off the same service, but I have paid $10 to Forster to hone out the neck of a sizer die. I have done this over a dozen times. To hone out a 25-06 die to my 6.5-06 specifications, that was a lot more than $10 and a lot of talking, as that is a lot of honing. In 280AI [not offered by Forster], which I am building (4) rifles right now, I have honed out dies myself. That is to be avoided. Dies are hard. Makes sense to me, but I don't see mention of when and how decapping occurs. So, for a standard RCBS 2 die set is this workable? Pull the decapper/expander stem out of the die, resize the brass (which leaves the cap in place). Screw the stem back in, but set the decapper to protrude 1/2 inch or more out of the mouth of the die, instead of the usual 3/16 or so - this to keep the expander low in the die and avoid the case re-entering the neck resizing portion of the die. This should allow the the expander to do its job when pushed into the neck without reducing the neck again, and decap at the same time. 09/19/2018 - No replies so this follow up... From later comments, it looks like some don't consider this a simple proposal. Just two steps, resize case the first pass, and expand the neck and decap the second pass. That's not simple? The question is, would setting up the expander/decapping stem as envisioned work or not?
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