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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Re item #4: Have you measured how many thousandths the Sinclair mandrel is having to expand the necks for each cartridge? I did while testing when I first started using them. Probably have it written down somewhere. I soon realized all the mandrels I have, are the exact same diameter as the expander ball on my Redding FL dies. So whatever the delta is resulting from the down / compressing stroke and the up / expanding stroke using the dies with the ball, the mandrels will net the same. I was thinking along the likes of are the necks getting worked a lot more than necessary, even if they are coming out straight? My Redding FL die for 308 Winchester is really tight in the neck section, so much so that I prefer to use it only on the typically thin WW brass, or other brass with turned necks os similar dimensions.
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Another simple solution, described in GUN GACK, which works very well with many "standard" dies with expander balls, is to raise the expander back to just under the neck portion of the sizing die. This is exactly how Forster designs their full-length dies, and it tends to size necks straight despite the expander ball because the die's holding the case straight as the neck's dragged over the ball. Have used this technique successfully with at least 4 brands of expander-ball dies to help produce very straight ammo. In fact, I just used it a couple days ago with my .257 Weatherby dies to produce ammo averaging .002 in bullet runout.
The only "problem" with this technique is decapping, but I always have a Lee decapping die in one of the holes of my turret press, so imply turn the turret and knock the primer out.
However, many handloaders seem to prefer complicated, multi-step, slow solutions to a pretty simple problem. Not to muddy the water, but I like to keep things simple. So what about the technique of using a neoprene O-ring between die and press frame to allow the die to "float" a bit as the expander pulls out through the case neck? I have been using this, and get many quite straight rounds, but also have some with runout. I just sort them, straight for hunting, less straight for initial sighting and less demanding use. Or would it be much better to size first and then push the expander into the case?
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What little testing I have done the floating dies worked as good or better than fixed dies. The Lee O ring lock nuts work well with the collet sizer as it allows it to self center better, at least in theory, same with bullet seaters. I put index marks on the lock nuts to help increase uniformity when I change dies as otherwise your guessing with an O ring.
If you want straight cases the original hammer Lee dies can do it. I bet they would come within 75%+ of what good arbor dies do for run out.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Wrapids,
That can work, but another technique I use--especially when raising the expander ball in standard sizing dies--is to put small rubber washers on the seating stem, above the die, so the expander ball isn't held rigidly in place. In fact, the sizing die used for the .257 Weatherby handloads previously mentioned has them.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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My Hornady FL sizer for 308 Winchester has some built in slack in the grooves/threads that keep the expander/decapper rod from slipping out of its retaining nut. It allows the elliptical expander ball to follow the hole in the case neck quite well. The die sizes brass straight, but it's really tight in the body/shoulder section. I use it only if I want to size brass to like new diameter and taper.
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This is exactly how Forster designs their full-length dies, and it tends to size necks straight despite the expander ball because the die's holding the case straight as the neck's dragged over the ball. Or just buy the Forster BR dies...........I like them better than anything else that I've used. MM +1 Yeah, Forester BR is what I bought moons ago to set up by 7 mags. Made you feel like you’d been reloading like a pro for years straight out of the gate while dialing in a custom load. Buy components>load 3 separate loads>go shoot. Rifle A: 1 – 61 grains, 3 shots close together 2 – 63 grains, 3 shots tighten up 3 – 65 grains, 3 shots cloverleaf. 4 - Done Rifle B (backup, duplicate of A) 1 – 61 grains, 3 shots close together 2 – 63 grains, 3 shots tighten up 3 – 65 grains, 3 shots cloverleaf. 4 - Done Go home clean guns, open beer bottle, take a gulp…ah, that was easy. Next weekend load 50 for gun A. Following weekend, load 50 for gun B. Wait for hunting season. Disadvantages of using Forester BR, you don’t get to tinker around, and have additional fun, like these guys. You only get to read about it.
"He is far from Stupid"
”person, who happens to have an above-average level of intelligence”
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Campfire Outfitter
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If you measure the eccentricity of the ammo and components at each stage, the advantage of Clarence Purdie's 1960s patent on a sliding sleeve seater die is small, on the order of < 0.001".
That is now off patent, and Forster/Bonanza/GOPHER SHOOTER'S SUPPLY COMPANY are not longer the only source.
Meanwhile the expander ball is capable of over 0.004" of eccentricity. Any more than that, and the factory chamber often straightens the cartridge down to 0.004" bent.
Going through the whole reloading process, the expander ball will typically be causing 90% of the error.
The effect on the target of that error depends on the error magnitude, and/or the tightness of the chamber.
from "The American Rifleman" ~ 55 years ago, and the NRA told me it is ok to quote. I used some software to pull text out of the scan of the old book.
"Gauging Bullet Tilt"
THE MOST PRECISE AMMUNITION
FROM A LOT CAN BE SELECTED
WITH A BULLET ALIGNMENT GAUGE.
By A. A. ABBATIELLO
Other factors being normal, bullet
tilt with respect to the case center-
line affects group size. If the barrel
length and twist are known, it has been
found possible to predict the direction
from the group center in which the tilted
bullet will strike. If the amount of tilt
is known, the distance from the group
center can be predicted.
Significant score improvement has
been noted by those who have tried
such gauged ammunition.
In cal. .30 long-range shooting, the
best match-grade ammunition will group
in one to 2 minutes of angle under test
conditions. Part of this spread is due
to the bullet tilt with respect to the
case centerline, imposed by the bullet-
seating tool. This tilt displaces the bul-
let’s center of gravity slightly to one
side; in bullets such as the cal. .30 Ml,
the amount is about 1/8 the displace-
ment of the bullet point. It enlarges
groups by amounts up to one minute.
These deviations become proportion-
ately less as the tilt is reduced. Tilts
over .O04" do not seem to increase the
dispersion of the group beyond the ex-
pected one minute. Perhaps this is
because a well-fitting chamber has a
tendency to straighten any rounds
which are excessively tilted. Other ex-
planations are possible.
The gauge consists of a V-block
which permits rotating the round about
the bullet point and 2 tangent spots
near the case head. A dial indicator
which reads in tenths of thousandths of
an inch (.0OO1") bears on the bullet
near the case neck. Half the total indica-
tor reading is used as the displacement
for determining the classes into which
the rounds are separated. The high point
is also marked at this time for orienta-
tion of the round in the rifle chamber.
Rounds with .0O2" tilt or less can
be considered good enough for long-
range use, while those with .O03" and
.OO4" tilt are best used only at short
ranges. In general, it was concluded
from target results that each .0Ol" of
tilt will increase the group spread about
1/4 minute of angle, up to a maximum
of .OO4" as mentioned above.
Under test conditions, it was found
that when the rounds were chambered
with the high point always in the same
orientation, the groups were smaller
than when it was randomly oriented.
Gauging and orienting the rounds can
produce the smallest groups of which
that ammunition is capable.
These ammunition refinements are
becoming important, particularly in
long-range matches.
The essentials of the tilted bullet were
discussed in detail no less than 50 years
ago by Dr. F. W. Mann in his book
"The Bullets In Flight". He pointed out that
the balance of the bullet and the spiral
path of the center of gravity are of
high importance in accuracy.
Following a discussion between
George L. Jacobsen of Frankford Arse-
al and the writer at the 1959 National
matches, a trial of the effect of neck
concentricity was carried out by Jacob-
sen. He described his results in ".30-’O6
Cartridge Cases And Accuracy", which
appeared in THE AMERICAN RIFLEMAN,
January 1960, page 20.
SEATING TOOL A FACTOR
The effects which Jacobsen found,
though small, are essentially in agree-
ment with the work reported here.
However, he did not separate the effects
of neck eccentricity and the bullet cen-
ter-of-gravity location with respect to
the bore. The angular direction of the
bullet seating tool is a controlling factor
in the initial position given to the bullet,
rather than merely case neck eccen-
tricity. Case necks can be centered or
eccentric, and the bullet can be inclined
in completely random directions. The
tilted bullet is believed to be the main
cause for center—of-gravity side shift.
The cal. .30 boattail bullet of 173 grs.
weight was selected for these tests be-
cause it is in common use and is of
sufficiently high quality for use in the
National Matches.
Using the gauge shown, 42 ammuni-
tion lots were sampled and the high
point was marked on each round gauged.
These rounds were grouped in steps of
.OO1" bullet tilt, and the data tabu-
lated. The results gave a bell—shaped
curve for 829 rounds of match ammu-
nition, peaking at about .0O2" (see
illustration). Measurements on Service
ball ammunition produced a curve of
similar shape, but peaking at about
.0025" tilt.
This graphically illustrates that even
match-grade ammunition has appreci-
able variations. There is a large spread
among particular lots and boxes. In
general, 10% to 20% of each lot, de-
pending on ammunition quality, falls
into .0O3", .0O4" or even up to .O10"
tilt. Run-of-the-mill ammunition can
thereby enlarge groups to about twice
the size which the same ammunition
can show when it is gauged before firing.
Since the tilt angle of the bullet is
so small (about 1/4 °) it is difficult to
perceive visually. The gauge, however,
makes the sorting a fast, routine step.
A mathematical solution of this prob-
lem was also tried (see box) and is in
good agreement with the results ob-
tained. It is gratifying to find the math-
ematical solution and the experimental
results in agreement.
MATHEMATICAL SOLUTION
A laterally displaced center of
gravity moves through the rifle bore
in a helical (screw) path. The pitch
of this helix is the pitch of rifling,
and its radius is the lateral displace-
ment of the center of gravity. On
leaving the muzzle, the center of
gravity continues in the direction it
had at that point. For example, if it
leaves at top of the bore and rifling
is to the right, the departure will be
to the right. The bullet travels ap-
proximately 2l.5" in a 24" barrel,
making 2.15 turns in the 10" twist
of rifling. The number of turns
shows the orientation on emergence
compared with that in the chamber
before firing. The angle of emer-
gence is that angle whose tangent is
2 pi times the lateral displacement
divided by the rifling pitch. For
.004" point displacement and I0"
rifling pitch, the tangent is 1/8(2·pi)
(.004)/l0 and the corresponding
angle is 1.1 minutes.
The displacement on target from
this cause is proportional to the
range and can be obtained without
noting the angle. For example, ,004"
point displacement gives in l0"
rifling pitch, so far as this mecha-
nism goes, a target displacement at
100 yds. (3600") indicated by the
proportion .00l· pi /10=X/3600, from
which x =1.1".
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. -Ernest Hemingway
The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything.-- Edward John Phelps
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ClarkM,
I am looking for my copy of the Jacobson article which is similarly interesting as it describes the testing methodology that he employed and it also gives a peek at how the arsenals did/do their testing.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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ChrisF,
I don't have info on Jacobson.
For many years I suspected that A. A. ABBATIELLO was a made up pen name to get the front of alphabetical order, but now I see he was a researcher at Oak Ridge in 1945.
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. -Ernest Hemingway
The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything.-- Edward John Phelps
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. . . An accurate rifle will generally shoot with full-length sized ammo that's reasonably straight. A friend of mine is a High Master F-class shooter. I don't know much about that game. He always fully resizes and never neck sizes. He's doing this with a .284 Winchester. I neck sized for case life and ease, not for accuracy.
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Deer are somewhere all the time
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Campfire Ranger
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Pharm Wow, 9 pages & 89 posts. Y'all must be striving for B R accuracy.  - NO offense intended. As 16 Bore said TO ME, " you are wearing me out".  I'm only looking for hunting accuracy and that's BETTER than 1 1/2" - 2". I mean, I won't settle for MORE than 1" @ 100 yds.  Also 400 yds is the average LONG shot that I seldom get, so IFn I was trying to shoot 600-1000 yds, I'd try harder.
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I keep going back to the Lee collet neck sizer. No expander ball, cases are sized straight.
For hunting accuracy it seems to me the neck collet sizer decreases critical neck thickness as a factor. I have rounds where I turn necks, have BR type dies, Wilson seaters, etc. As the neck is sized against the mandrel, some neck thickness variation doesn't seem to me as being that critical.
I'm loading ammo with very little run out, rounds checked and if needed, R/O corrected with a TruAngle tool.
I'm not saying this is as good as a high end BR set up, but for the money and the convenience, it's hard to beat for loading accurate, concentric hunting ammo.
DF
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Keep doing that, DF. Until you start shooting benchrest, the Lee collet die and a Redding body die are the cheapest, easiest and fastest. Don't overthink it.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/AP39Jhm.jpg)
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
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Keep doing that, DF. Until you start shooting benchrest, the Lee collet die and a Redding body die are the cheapest, easiest and fastest. Don't overthink it. Overthinking not one of my strong points...  What's even cheaper than a Redding body die is a gutted Lee FL die. The Lee 4 die set contain FL and neck collet dies, often not much more expensive than a reg set. As posted earlier here's a body die in the making. DF ![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/l321y9e.jpg)
Last edited by Dirtfarmer; 09/09/18.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I will just point out that the dies used to shoot sub-half-inch groups (and not just 3-shot) from a .257 Weatherby NULA are the basic RCBS 2-die set, purchased for around $25 at a local store. The only "modification" was to raise the expander ball just under the neck portion of the FL sizing die. They've resulted in tiny groups with two .257 Weatherbys, the first a Vanguard Sporter (walnut stock) that grouped three 100-grain TSX's (before TTSX's appeared in 2007) into 1 to 1-1/2 inches at 300 yards.
I used my first Lee collet dies the first year they appeared, which as I recall was over 20 years ago, and they work great. But there is more than one way to produce straight ammo with "cheap" dies. Have accomplished the same thing with various other brands of standard dies.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I will just point out that the dies used to shoot sub-half-inch groups (and not just 3-shot) from a .257 Weatherby NULA are the basic RCBS 2-die set, purchased for around $25 at a local store. The only "modification" was to raise the expander ball just under the neck portion of the FL sizing die. . BTW -- Thanks M D. hmmmmm. I hate to say this.................. really..................That's what I've been doing for many years. Cheap,......Simple......Effective.......No Muss.......No Fuss------> whatdayaknow? BTW, I DON'T like the Lee rubber O ring sizer. I only have 1 set, won't get another.
Last edited by jwall; 09/09/18.
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Keep doing that, DF. Until you start shooting benchrest, the Lee collet die and a Redding body die are the cheapest, easiest and fastest. Don't overthink it. Overthinking not one of my strong points... What's even cheaper than a Redding body die is a gutted Lee FL die. The Lee 4 die set contain FL and neck collet dies, often not much more expensive than a reg set. As posted earlier here's a body die in the making. DF Yes, but most people do not have the skills required to modify existing dies. This is a classic example of why the KISS principle is appropriate here. (Keep It Simple, Stupid). I too, used Lee collet dies when they first appeared, and have also special ordered other dies for cartridges that are not regular production.Those special order dies came from RCBS, CH4D and Lee. It was easier. With the exception of an RCBS neck sizing 303 Epps die, they all arrived within a month. For the majority of reloaders, Lee and Redding have provided the tools to ease run out and other problems. There is usually more than one way to skin a cat, but in most cases simplicity is best.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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What's even cheaper than a Redding body die is a gutted Lee FL die. The Lee 4 die set contain FL and neck collet dies, often not much more expensive than a reg set. As posted earlier here's a body die in the making.
DF
The next size up FL die you already have is pretty cheap too.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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. . . An accurate rifle will generally shoot with full-length sized ammo that's reasonably straight. A friend of mine is a High Master F-class shooter. I don't know much about that game. He always fully resizes and never neck sizes. He's doing this with a .284 Winchester. I neck sized for case life and ease, not for accuracy. There are different amounts of "fully" resizing. Your friend is probably sizing the full extent of the case just a little bit, rather than sizing it fully down to new out of the box dimensions.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Most FL dies don't resize cases to new dimensions. Maybe small-base dies do, but I've never used any, because even when loading for semiautos have never had any need to.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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