Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Resizing without the expander ball

Like others, I've fought the battle with runout but have mostly made my peace with it. For what it's worth, here's my process starting with fired brass.

1. Decap fired brass with Redding universal decapping die.
2. Clean using media tumbler.
3. FL size with Redding FL sizing die. Expander ball removed, using Imperial Wax.
4. Expand necks using Sinclair Mandrel and die body. Lightly lube neck interior. *I used to not lube necks until I had an issue when I started reloading some .300 WSM brass, The cases were compressing slightly at the base of the shoulder when pushing the mandrel through. Never had the issue reloading .204, .223, .220, .243, .270, 30-06 but did with the .300 WSM. Starting neck lubing and the problem went away.
5. Clean again in media tumbler to remove lube. Leave it in for a good 4+ hours and that seems to remove it all.
6. Check neck concentricty with 21st Century concentricty gauge.
7. Prime using 21st Century hand primer.
8. Drop powder and seat bullets with Redding Seater with VLD micrometer.
9. Measure concentricty on the bullet with 21st Century concentricty gauge.

I mostly shoot bolt guns so volume isn't a concern. This process seems like a good compromise between speed / time and precision. I've dabbled in neck turning but for a variety of reasons, not something I've really adopted. Would like to one day incorporate annealing.

Removing the expander ball seemed to give me the most gains in concentricity . I'm guessing I average ~.003 inches of runout, but I do get a handful that produce .005 inches and slightly above.

While I've made my peace with runout.... I've since turned my focus to improving powder measuring precision and speed. I've come close on several occasion to buying this puppy...

https://ce-products.myshopify.com/

Re item #4: Have you measured how many thousandths the Sinclair mandrel is having to expand the necks for each cartridge?

Back in the rec.guns old usenet days before the www, Professor Toby Bradshaw at the University of Washington, my alma mater, posted on Feb 28, 1994

I turned the necks on 25 Lapua .220 Russian cases after expanding the
necks to 6mm and running them through a Redding 6PPC FL die to set the
neck/shoulder junction back (no expander ball used, *ever*)

When I pressed him with "What is the difference between a mandrel you are using and an expander ball?"

He said the mandrel was on the push stroke.

And here we are 24 years later.

I've turned necks and not turned necks.

Seems to me, the Lee collet neck sizer makes that less of an issue, other than BR type rounds.

The biggest bang for the buck, IMO, is getting a Deluxe Lee die set with the 4 dies. I take their FL die and turn it into a body die with the Dremel. Have posted this before. It works pretty well and is a lot cheaper than buying a Redding body die. And, I don't like Lee FL dies that much anyway, don't generally use them other than as a converted body die. With neck sizing, you're gonna need a body die to bump the shoulders now and then when bolt closure starts showing resistance.

I use the Sinclair gauge and correct any run out (generally not that much) with a Tru Tool.

IMO, this is the easiest, least expensive way to load some really good, concentric ammo.

When I'm serious, I use a Wilson seater, some have been cut by the same reamer that cut the rifle chamber.

This is a good example of keeping it simple as in "KISS"...

DF

Another simple solution, described in GUN GACK, which works very well with many "standard" dies with expander balls, is to raise the expander back to just under the neck portion of the sizing die. This is exactly how Forster designs their full-length dies, and it tends to size necks straight despite the expander ball because the die's holding the case straight as the neck's dragged over the ball. Have used this technique successfully with at least 4 brands of expander-ball dies to help produce very straight ammo. In fact, I just used it a couple days ago with my .257 Weatherby dies to produce ammo averaging .002 in bullet runout.

The only "problem" with this technique is decapping, but I always have a Lee decapping die in one of the holes of my turret press, so imply turn the turret and knock the primer out.

However, many handloaders seem to prefer complicated, multi-step, slow solutions to a pretty simple problem.

When is KISS not mo better...

DF

Succinct and to the point, as usual.

Might also add that I went to the range with my .257 Weatherby ammo and the NULA Model 28 it was loaded for to make sure the rifle was OK for the upcoming hunting season. I'd just cleaned the barrel thoroughly, so started with a 3-shot "fouling" group, then after a few minutes shot three more. They went into .27 inch, which didn't totally surprise me, but after marking the first three on the target, went back and fired a fourth shot--which opened up the group to .37. An accurate rifle will generally shoot with full-length sized ammo that's reasonably straight.

I think that one should be ready for prime time.

What load?

DF

76 grains of H1000 and the 100-grain Nosler E-Tip. Velocity's 3550 from the 24-inch barrel.

I really like 120 E-Tip (and TTSX) in my 26 Nosler at nearly that speed.

Bet that load puts the hurt on critters, may even mess up some meat...

DF

Or just buy the Forster BR dies...........I like them better than anything else that I've used.

MM

I recently switched to this method after reading about on here. Wow talk about eliminating run out.

Yep, that would cut out the decapping step, as the Forester BR would do it all in one stroke.

But, if one was wanting to use what he had for maximum effect, JB's technique would be the way to go.

DF

I like Forster dies very much as well, but my job isn't to sell Forster dies, or any other brand. Instead it's to provide as much information as possible to readers, which means experimenting with a bunch of different kinds of dies, including inexpensive brands--the kind most handloaders

Most prefer to buying relatively inexpensive dies, the reason I've played with plenty of 'em, to see how they can be made to work better.

Yes, & thanks for all the tips, but even though you aren't in the business of selling anything, nothing wrong with expressing your preferences in a tactful manner when there is a clear difference in parts.

MM

I did while testing when I first started using them. Probably have it written down somewhere.

I soon realized all the mandrels I have, are the exact same diameter as the expander ball on my Redding FL dies. So whatever the delta is resulting from the down / compressing stroke and the up / expanding stroke using the dies with the ball, the mandrels will net the same.

I tried this with my Redding dies but you can't really get the expander ball up all that high on them. I was already well invested into Redding dies by the time I started to appreciate run out and looked for a solution, otherwise I might have gone with a different brand of die that was better suited to getting the ball up higher. In the end, I just decided to add mandrels and have been very happy with the results. It does add an extra step but it's not that onerous.

copperking,

Yep, Redding dies don't allow the expander ball to be raised as much as other brands. Have experienced exactly the same thing.

But a lot depends on the body taper (or lack of it) in the particular cartridge. If the case is more "modern," with little body taper, then Redding FL dies will still result in straight necks with the expander ball raised as much as possible, because the case remains aligned. Which is exactly why the .257 Weatherby dies work:The case doesn't taper much.

But with an "old-fashioned" tapered case like the .250 Savage or .300 H&H, dies that allow the expander ball to be raised just under the neck portion of the tend to work better. RCBS and Lyman full-length dies are good examples.

Interesting, I hadn't really considered the taper.