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Joined: Jun 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,578 Likes: 2 |
Having an alert an armed sentry when hunched over a day old kill in grizzly country is not ambiguous. How much time have you spent in grizzly country? Enough to know the gun should be out of the pack and the bologna sandwich stays in until the trail-head is reached. I would bet in minutes it is less than 10... Keep avoiding there, Cap'n Sure thing there Grizzly Adams, I am sure the closest you’ve been to a Grizzly was watching TV...
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Joined: Aug 2002
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2002
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Seems a bit simplistic.
What has changed about the mountains today that precluded grizzlies in early times? The friggin things are/were found from the Arctic tundra clear to Southern California. Surely every area of habitat that was habitable by grizzlies, was. .
Lewis and Clark nearly starved to death in the Rocky Mountains, nothing to eat. Grizzlies weren’t there for the same reason. You can’t judge frontier America by what today’s conditions are... One often hears the Lewis and Clark argument. But Lewis and Clark were 30 guys trying to feed themselves through hunting while essentially sampling along a single transect, which arguments seek to represent the whole Rocky Mountains. Rather.than being free to move about and look for game they have to remain on course and follow valleys so steep-sided they lose horses tumbling off of cliffs, even so, one of their party in the middle of all that reports a bear track, griz or black we ain’t told. Twenty and thirty years later did the Mountain Men themselves starve? Or was it intermittent periods of hardship and sometimes plenty, much as L&C had experienced?
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 16,248
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 16,248 |
[quote=add]Having an alert an armed sentry when hunched over a day old kill in grizzly country is not ambiguous. How much time have you spent in grizzly country? Enough to know the gun should be out of the pack and the bologna sandwich stays in until the trail-head is reached. I would bet in minutes it is less than 10... Keep avoiding there, Cap'n You seem compelled to defend some perhaps poor judgement / professionalism on the part of the guide here. Why is this that, because he died?
Epstein didn't kill himself.
"Play Cinnamon Girl you Sonuvabitch!"
Biden didn't win the election.
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,139 Likes: 24
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,139 Likes: 24 |
Wasn't on that mountain, won't pretend to know what did or didn't happen.
But reading here - I sure hope that those gentlemen didn't employ the spray first with the hopes of avoiding the pistol. Seems like if I thought I'd need the spray, I probably needed the pistol. Having a choice would seem to complicate things. I'd rather swing big and KNOW I was using the strongest deterrent available at the time that I had than 1/2 way and hope it was enough. I hope that wasn't the case that they worried about backlash and tried the spray first because of fear of prosecution or harassment from Treadwells later.
Now before someone gets wound up - spent very little to no time in Griz country. BUT when I was 14 I did get charged by a wounded black bear and shot him at a distance of about 20 inches. Measured and witnessed by 3 other people. I've been in a "high excitement" situation with something that weighed more than I did and could eat me. I'm not saying 1:1 comparison or that I'd do the same now. Just saying - my perspective.
Me
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,578 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,578 Likes: 2 |
You seem compelled to defend some perhaps poor judgement / professionalism on the part of the guide here.
Why is this that, because he died?
What you don't know would fill a Presidential Library. Somehow you think your experience is relevant and you have never seen a Grizzly bear, let alone encountered one. I don't know where you are from, but it is easily hundreds of miles from Wyoming and nowhere near where this incident took place, yet you have personal knowledge of the situation. I have lived my life in Grizzly country, I have seen them charge, kill cattle and killed them myself. The last Grizzly sighting I had was last week at 75 yards. I have seen first hand how fast and powerful they are. I have not defended the actions of the guide, I have not condemned him for what happened because I know enough to say that he may have done everything he could and still ended up dead. You, however, make indicting comments from a living room in some house so far removed from the country where bears and people coexist and wonder why your comments are irrelevant...
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Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 8,701 Likes: 10
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 8,701 Likes: 10 |
You seem compelled to defend some perhaps poor judgement / professionalism on the part of the guide here.
Why is this that, because he died?
What you don't know would fill a Presidential Library. Somehow you think your experience is relevant and you have never seen a Grizzly bear, let alone encountered one. I don't know where you are from, but it is easily hundreds of miles from Wyoming and nowhere near where this incident took place, yet you have personal knowledge of the situation. I have lived my life in Grizzly country, I have seen them charge, kill cattle and killed them myself. The last Grizzly sighting I had was last week at 75 yards. I have seen first hand how fast and powerful they are. I have not defended the actions of the guide, I have not condemned him for what happened because I know enough to say that he may have done everything he could and still ended up dead. You, however, make indicting comments from a living room in some house so far removed from the country where bears and people coexist and wonder why your comments are irrelevant... This post redeemed your ground slucing.
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,026
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,026 |
You seem compelled to defend some perhaps poor judgement / professionalism on the part of the guide here.
Why is this that, because he died?
What you don't know would fill a Presidential Library. Somehow you think your experience is relevant and you have never seen a Grizzly bear, let alone encountered one. I don't know where you are from, but it is easily hundreds of miles from Wyoming and nowhere near where this incident took place, yet you have personal knowledge of the situation. I have lived my life in Grizzly country, I have seen them charge, kill cattle and killed them myself. The last Grizzly sighting I had was last week at 75 yards. I have seen first hand how fast and powerful they are. I have not defended the actions of the guide, I have not condemned him for what happened because I know enough to say that he may have done everything he could and still ended up dead. You, however, make indicting comments from a living room in some house so far removed from the country where bears and people coexist and wonder why your comments are irrelevant... This post redeemed your ground slucing. good post......I will say there seems to be some inconsistent statements with the stories….don't buy the horse account did you guys hear about the grizzly hit on the road here a couple days ago?...…..here is paradise valley....have seen pics of it...….bob
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 12,140
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 12,140 |
shrapnel; Top of the morning to you sir, I hope the day looks as promising on your side of the medicine line as it does here.
While I don't have anywhere near the personal experience with grizzly bears that you do, we've hiked, tented and hunted in areas where they're known to frequent for the past 30+ years.
As well, and I'm not comparing the two - but we're very much familiar with their black bear cousins - saw two pretty fair ones hunting this past weekend in fact and can testify to how incredibly powerful AND fast a black bear can be sometimes.
Anyway, I thought that this "because I know enough to say that he may have done everything he could and still ended up dead" pretty much sums it up, for me anyway.
A good buddy a couple hours north of us worked with a young lady whose brother and his hunting partner were killed by a grizzly out of Canal Flats about 20 years back. They had a bull elk down and two loaded rifles were found at the scene, though one apparently jammed.
Speaking personally, I've come to grips with the fact that I'm not going to live forever and if folks like you and I keep going into grizzly country, it just might be that's the cause of getting our ticket punched. Odds are in my case however some wonderful BC driver will take me out on the highway before I hit the logging road into grizzly country.
Anyway sir, all the best to you and your fine family and good luck on your hunts this fall.
Dwayne
The most important stuff in life isn't "stuff"
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,098 Likes: 6
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,098 Likes: 6 |
….don't buy the horse account. Based on what?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,370
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2007
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We are Headed to Jackson in 2 weeks and I find comfort in my Glock, Guide Gun and the fact that I can outrun my wife since her knee surgery. Be safe out there. That strategy seemed to have worked well for the client....
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,295
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,295 |
Wyoming Game and Fish Department says deceased guide Mark Uptain did deploy bear spray. Found a used can beside his body. Sow bear captured and killed did have pepper residue on her. Department says the bears were not known to them and had never been handled by their agency. Carry on!
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,578 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,578 Likes: 2 |
We are Headed to Jackson in 2 weeks and I find comfort in my Glock, Guide Gun and the fact that I can outrun my wife since her knee surgery. Be safe out there. That strategy seemed to have worked well for the client.... Another misconception about running away. All you have to do is remember that bears will chase what runs, so if you are slower, just stop and let the bear continue to chase the athlete. In most cases the bear loses because good runners are usually tough and sinewy, not that good to eat...
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,370
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2007
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After being drug off a horse, I wanna' know how the heck the horse stuck around long enough for the hunter to catch it and ride out of there.........
FWIW, and IMHO, the "clients story" has changed a couple of times....and I wouldn't trust him enough to go ANYWHERE with him...fight or flight type thing...
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,098 Likes: 6
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,098 Likes: 6 |
We are Headed to Jackson in 2 weeks and I find comfort in my Glock, Guide Gun and the fact that I can outrun my wife since her knee surgery. Be safe out there. That strategy seemed to have worked well for the client.... Personally, I wouldn't be too hard on the client. It's not his responsibility to keep the guide safe, it's the other way around. And I wouldn't blame the guide either. No one on this board has enough information to know what happened. What is it that causes people who have no knowledge of or involvement in a tragedy like this to feel the need to place blame?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Other than the name calling, an interesting thread. To those with actual bear experience, my respects.
An unemployed Jester, is nobody's Fool.
the only real difference between a good tracker and a bad tracker, is observation. all the same data is present for both. The rest, is understanding what you're seeing.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 184
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 184 |
We are Headed to Jackson in 2 weeks and I find comfort in my Glock, Guide Gun and the fact that I can outrun my wife since her knee surgery. Be safe out there. That strategy seemed to have worked well for the client.... Personally, I wouldn't be too hard on the client. It's not his responsibility to keep the guide safe, it's the other way around. And I wouldn't blame the guide either. No one on this board has enough information to know what happened. What is it that causes people who have no knowledge of or involvement in a tragedy like this to feel the need to place blame? You’re right, No one really happened. But this for sure - two armed men were attacked my a single bear. The guide my be an amateur
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Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 8,701 Likes: 10
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 8,701 Likes: 10 |
We are Headed to Jackson in 2 weeks and I find comfort in my Glock, Guide Gun and the fact that I can outrun my wife since her knee surgery. Be safe out there. That strategy seemed to have worked well for the client.... What is it that causes people who have no knowledge of or involvement in a tragedy like this to feel the need to place blame? Retardation
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Joined: Dec 2008
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,845 |
For those condemning the hunter, he probably has no experience with bears. He found himself in the middle of what is probably one of the most terrifying scenarios in which a human being can find himself. It's easy to judge his actions, after the fact, from the safety of our homes or offices as we read this thread and type away. Even foresight of what we should do and could do in anticipation of the possibility of a grizzly attack can in no way prepare one for the shear terror we may face. The hunter reacted in a manner that many on this forum may. I'm sure he, after the fact, in a cool headed, non adrenalin and panic filled state, is probably saying to himself, some of the same things as are being said here about him and what he should have done. He is not unique among even otherwise brave and cool-headed men who have behaved in a "questionable manner" when faced with high-stress panic-laden situations.
I have had several bear encounters while hunting. Coming across a grizzly at close range really does create instant panic, moreso than even combat. Each situation I faced was resolved without me becoming dinner. The closest I've come to my own demise is while bowhunting I got between a momma black bear and two cubs. I thank heaven that once I discovered my predicament I was able to gather my wits quick enough to drop my bow and climb a tree just before she began her charge.
Last edited by TheBigSky; 09/18/18.
_________________________________________________________________________ “Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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No blame game here. And I have not read all the pages. But an observation.......
There is a definite downside to sticking an arrow in an Elk in the afternoon. Bone soured in the morning......plus a grizzly buffet!
Afternoon thermals can also be wish washy.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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We are Headed to Jackson in 2 weeks and I find comfort in my Glock, Guide Gun and the fact that I can outrun my wife since her knee surgery. Be safe out there. That strategy seemed to have worked well for the client.... Personally, I wouldn't be too hard on the client. It's not his responsibility to keep the guide safe, it's the other way around. And I wouldn't blame the guide either. No one on this board has enough information to know what happened. What is it that causes people who have no knowledge of or involvement in a tragedy like this to feel the need to place blame? You’re right, No one really happened. But this for sure - two armed men were attacked my a single bear. The guide my be an amateur Punctuation, grammar and spelling are important to not look like an amateur.
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