Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire General Custer's remains.

This is true, yet people still condemn Custer for his actions that day. Plenty of his subordinate officers from that campaign followed Custer to the Little Bighorn with the exception of Benteen, they had great admiration and respect for Custer.

Godfrey was a Lieutenant at the time and later became a General and much of his testimony after the LBH battle was very candid and without criticism of Custer.

It seems that more is written about Custer by people that don’t know much about him than those who do...

The custer myth
w.a. graham
page 294

"the tactics of the indians on that day resulted in their doing to custer exactly what custer had planned tactically to do to them. And they were able to do it because they had the leaders, the arms, and the overwhelming forces, none of which facts were known or appreciated by the 7th Calvary. Their numbers had been underestimated, their leadership and fighting capacity undervalued, their superiority in arms not even suspected. The 7th cavalry paid the penalty for national stupidity."

Interesting words. Good book, it didn't have to happen on multiple levels, but it did.

Custer got a bum rap.

Would that qualify as counting coup for the individual who did it?

Looking back with the luxury of hindsight.....

Custer had more than 500 men during his Washita expedition.....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Washita_River

...well armed, disciplined, trained.

Versus maybe 6,000 Cheyenne’s, Arapahos and Lakotas spread out along maybe ten miles of river. 6,000 Indians translates to around 1,200 ( one in five) males of combat age, indifferently armed, not operating as a cohesive trained unit.

Custer “slips away” after a feint. What?, Were they airlifted out from a rendezvous point?

Custer brung out more than fifty Cheyenne women and children, on foot.

So what, Custers column about-faced OUT-RAN 1,200 highly skilled Indians who could cover 100 miles a day at a horse-killing pace?

It was Ranald MacKenzie’s taking of Comanche women and children that finally led to the end of the Red River War, the hostile being naturally concerned about their families. I’m gonna suggest here that it was those 50+ Cheyenne women and children held captive that got Custer’s command away safely.

They were effectively used as human shields by Custer by dispersing them through his column which largely deterred the warriors,
but didn't totally blunt attacks on the retreating 7th. Counter charges led by officers Weir, Benteen and Myers fended off attacks
giving them further breathing space.

Custer defended that action;

“..the close proximity of their women and children, and their necessary exposure in case of conflict, would operate as a powerful argument
in favor of peace.”

-- George Armstrong Custer, My Life on the Plains: Or, Experiences with Indians (New York: Sheldon and Company, 1874), 220.

Benteen, a prominent Custer critic, weren’t no slouch. Look at his early record aggressively pursuing superior numbers of Cheyenne. Also, allowing an Indian youth to fire on him repeatedly with a revolver at the Washita in an attempt to avoid killing the youth prob’ly speaks volumes as to his character.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Benteen

Another insight into his character, a year after the Little Big Horn at the inquiry.... from Evan S Connel.....

Benteen explained to the 1879 Court of Inquiry why he did what he did, and his reasoning is equally clear from subsequent remarks. He thought it impossible to obey; to do so would have been suicide. ”We were at their hearths and homes” he said referring to the Sioux ”their medicine was working well and they were fighting for all the good God gives anyone to fight for.

Sounds like a field commander with an incisive understanding of his enemy to me, his credibility further enhanced by his subsequent leadership while under heavy fire on Reno Hill.

My guess is that Benteen’s take on Custer as being a braggart who consistently failed to credit the officers in his command so as to enhance his own reputation was an accurate one. Not necessarily a terminal slam on Custer from the likes of me. Fighting Generals don’t gotta be Miss Congeniality and Custer’s record in the War of Secession was exemplary. He just weren’t all that great in the Indian Wars is all, certainly not at the Washita.

JMHO

Benteen was a courageous and valiant leader among men. He was more than capable, not only in the Indian wars, but throughout the Civil War as well. You can only imagine how much more effective he could have been had he not hated Custer so much. Speculating on a man's thoughts in war or peace doesn't settle or change what happened, so I won't suggest that Beneteen acted according to his hatred of Custer. Make no mistake about it, Benteen hated Custer.

The continued misunderstanding of the Indian Wars and why they happened has changed with time as people apply 21st century humanitarian views on what happened or what should have happened. Custer was not an Indian hater, he was perhaps, the Indian's greatest ally on the American Frontier. Every encounter Custer had was under orders and not on his own volition to kill or exterminate Indians.

General Phil Sheridan, commander of the Department of the Missouri, issued orders for the Washita River expedition, including the following: "…to destroy [Indian] villages and ponies, to kill or hang all warriors, and to bring back all woman and children [survivors] . " The purpose of this "total war" strategy was to make "all segments of Indian society experience the horrors of war as fully as the warriors".

This is a quote from Custer and his book "My Life On The Plains" in regards to Indians...

Yepper, the Regular Army was often the Indian's best friend. Happened over and over again.

Again, hindsight being 20/20, IMHO Custer screwed up at the Washita, tho one does wonder what Major Elliot thought he was gonna accomplish with just seventeen men.

Best guesses now Custer was only outnumbered 2 or 3:1 by actual combatives at the Washita, and the fact that he had taken Cheyenne women and children prisoners likely did more than anything else to bring the shooting to a close.

Purely for purposes of further discussions of the period, I googled up the Battle of Saline River, August 1867, wherein eighty-plus well-armed and competently led Buffalo Soldiers stood off five times their number of Cheyenne combatives and retired in good order. Of course nobody's camp was under attack so the Indians were likely less motivated in that instance....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Saline_River

Their Commanding Officer on the occasion, one George Augustus Armes is prob'ly worth a google search all by hisself; court-martialed three times, once for assaulting the actual Governor of Pennsylvania, reinstated twice, second wife twenty years younge than him, last shot in 1910, age 66. Chest wound, walked himself to the hospital to have the bullet removed.

https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1902/08/22/118476299.pdf

And one more before I lose the link.

Once in awhile you come across mention of of some remarkable guy operating all through a period of turmoil. Down here in Comancheria JJ "Doc" Sturm was one such guy, a Hill Country German who attached himself to the Comanches in the 1850's as their agricultural adviser on the short-lived Brazos Reservation, ended up living with them the rest of his life. Married a Creek woman later in life who helped him in his medical practice, his reputation for generosity to all still esteemed in Indian Country to this day. After Palo Duro Canyon it was Doc Sturm, at the behest of Ranald McKenzie, who rode out to the hostile Comanche camps alone to bring them in peacefully.

Here's another one I just found, "The Second William Penn", William H. Ryus, born 1839, six years on the Santa Fe Trail, who published a book of reminiscences in 1913.

https://www.medicinemangallery.com/the-second-william-penn.html

Many times, while I was crossing the plains, have bands of from 30 to 40 Indian or more come to us, catching up with us or passing us by. Had I not understood them and their intentions as well as I did we would more than likely have had trouble with them or have suffered severe inconvenience.

We never thought of fear when they were going along the road, and many times I would call them when I would camp for meals to come and get a cup of coffee. They would go back with us to camp. We did not care what their number was, we would always divide our provisions with them. If there were a large number of Indians, and our provisions were scarce, I would tell them so, but also tell them that notwithstanding that fact I still had some for them. Then if they only got a few sups of coffee around and a little piece of bread they were always profoundly grateful and satisfied that we had done our best.

In order to let them know we were scarce of bread, etc., I would say, “poka te keta pan;” in the Mexican language that is interpreted “very little bread.” Bread, in the Mexican or Indian language, is “pan,” and when they understood they would say “si,” which is interpreted “yes.” They showed us their appreciation for the little they received just as though we had given them a whole loaf of bread apiece.

If we only had a few cups of coffee and had 70 or 80 Indian guests we would give it to one of the Indians and he would divide it equally among his number. He would place the cup so it would contain an equal amount of the coffee. Then one of the Indians would get up from the ground (they always sit on the ground grouped all about us when they ate with us) and take the cups and hand them around to every fifth man, or such a one as would make it average to every cup of coffee they had. The Indians would break the bread and give to each one, according to what his share equally divided would be. When they come to drink their coffee every Indian who had a cup would raise it to their lips at once, take a swallow of the beverage, then pass the cup on to the next one. They did the bread the same way. After finishing their repast they invariably thanked us profusely in their Indian style for what they had been given. There were times when I had plenty of provisions to give them all they needed or required to satisfy their hunger. At no time was my coach surrounded with hostile intent without departing from it in friendliness. At the same time, I knew they had some great grievances.

Could be twaddle, maybe not, prob'ly worth a look.

You may want to do a little more research on Custer’s Indian affiliation. Black Hills expedition of 1874, confrontation of Southern Cheyenne chief Stone Forehead, and why Grant almost forbade him to lead the 7th Cavalry in Montana in1876. Custer was a person not the Regular Army...

I can google it same as anyone, was Stone Forehead the guy who tapped out his pipe on Custer's boot? I am a tad disappointed ya just didn't post the info yourself. But the fact remains, the Army was often the Indians' best friend, before and after the 1860's. I never suggested Custer hated Indians.

Do you think he fathered a child by that Cheyenne woman after the Washita as some stories, including Cheyenne stories, suggest?

I was friends with a full blood cheyenne who lived on the reservation not far from the battlefield...I worked with him in billings..his name was little coyotee, according to him they were thought through the generations that Custer was a great man and actually did a lot for the cheyenne...this kinda surprised me he had absoutly nothin bad to say....not even proud of the battle victory....however I found it funny he hated Crows with a passion and would fight them at every chance in the bars in billings...sadly he was killed by those same crows...

That’s too bad, but the hate among the Crow, Sioux and Cheyenne was for generations. The Crow’s Nest in the Wolf Mountains was named for where the Crows would hide the horses they stole from the Cheyenne. They hated the Sioux for running them out of their hunting ground in the Black Hills. Crows scouted for Custer due to their hatred of the Sioux and Cheyenne, not considering that fact that they were sealing their own fate as well as the Sioux and Cheyenne and all of the plains Indians.

Tribal hatred is as old as mankind, it still exists with the Suni, Shiite and the other tribal rivalries in the Mideast today, no different than the 19th century Indians...

I wouldn’t hazard to guess on the chances of his frontier love affairs, I know he was devoted enough to Libby to get Court Martialed for leaving his post to see her. I have seen a signed first edition “My Life On The Plains” that he had given to his black cook while on his western campaigns. Some will claim he had relations with her, she was also Elizabeth, but how do you prove that one way or other?

I do know that it was only $25,000.00 that kept me from buying that book...

That’s too bad, but the hate among the Crow, Sioux and Cheyenne was for generations. The Crow’s Nest in the Wolf Mountains was named for where the Crows would hide the horses they stole from the Cheyenne. They hated the Sioux for running them out of their hunting ground in the Black Hills. Crows scouted for Custer due to their hatred of the Sioux and Cheyenne, not considering that fact that they were sealing their own fate as well as the Sioux and Cheyenne and all of the plains Indians.

Tribal hatred is as old as mankind, it still exists with the Suni, Shiite and the other tribal rivalries in the Mideast today, no different than the 19th century Indians...[/quote

According to my friend stealing was an excepted practice among tribes.. Still is..They had a different outlook than white man...if you have property it's yours only if you can protect it...if it gets stolen it your own fault...I was down on the reservation with him shooting prairie dogs one weekend and they stole all my gas..he warned me to sleep with my rifle and ammo...which I did....luckily I had a 5 gal can to get me to town they didn't touch it...I was pissed but he shrugged it off....

Just so I can read this tomorrow.

One of the most interesting threads ever posted on The Campfire (for me).

Always good stuff to see the topic-educated spar.

maybe shrap can answer this for me.
there seems to be very little comment on crook, who had a pretty good size group with him, that ran into the indians at the rosebud, on his way to meet up with custer, terry, gibbons, and had a battle which at best was a draw. But, and a big but, he turned around after that instead of continuing to the bighorn.
If he would have continued perhaps things would have been different.