24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
-->
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 6 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,927
CRS Offline
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,927
But, but, but, stop using logic...… grin

Let's muddy the waters. What if a rifle will not shoot the 200gr NPT, like my 300 H&H? I have to slum a 180gr. grin

With the 338-06 you have more 200-210gr choices. Plus you can slum 180's or bullets heavier than 210gr. cool


Arcus Venator
GB1

Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 315
J
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
J
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 315
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
What I've discovered in 30+ years of gun writing is many (if not most) readers want to read about stuff they use, and if the author writes about their favorite stuff then they feel justified--and a kinship with the writer. If the author praises their choice, then he's a blood-brother. Which is why gun writers who try a lot of stuff and report it all works on some level, for some purposes, are often considered blood-brothers.

In the past couple years I've done articles on rifles and cartridges from the .33 WCF to 6.5 PRC, after considerable dinking with rifles made more than a century ago and modern "customs" made a couple months ago. Have also shot a bunch of big game animals over 52 years, and been standing beside hunting companions as they shot at least as many. Have performed and observed a bunch of big game autopsies, and tested a lot of bullets in various media.

I'm still a rifle loony, but have yet to see major differences in how widely similar cartridges kill stuff, given bullets that penetrate and expand sufficiently, within certain broad parameters. Am still learning stuff every month (or week), but would be very surprised if somebody develops a bullet or cartridge that kills big game noticeably "better" (whatever that means) than similar rounds/bullets. Have seen 700-pound animals dropped on impact with 100-grain .25-caliber bullets, and go 200 yards with 300-grain .375 bullets put in just about exactly the same place--with both bullets recovered under the hide on the far size. As a result, am not convinced of the magic in any cartridge/bullet.

But we all love to bat such stuff around endlessly. In the past week have seen posts asking about whether the Nosler AccuBond is adequate for "big deer", or the performance difference between the Barnes TSX and Tipped TSX, despite all those bullets being around for more than a decade.

Yeah, there are differences in cartridges and bullets, but the biggie is shot placement by a considerable margin, not 1/2" smaller groups, 20% more bullet weight retention, a few 100ths of an inch in bullet diameter, or even twice as much initial bullet weight. If the bullet expands and penetrates sufficiently through the vitals, the animal will die quickly. If the bullet doesn't penetrate the vitals, the initial diameter or weight doesn't make much difference, despite the belief in magnum magic. Have seen this over and over again, as have others including Finn Aaagard, who I knew pretty well.

That doesn't mean I've quit "experimenting." But it does mean I no longer believe in magic.


These paragraphs need to be read and reread (and probably reread 3 or 4 times) by the majority of members of this forum.

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,069
Likes: 3
S
Campfire 'Bwana
OP Online Content
Campfire 'Bwana
S
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,069
Likes: 3
OK, I read 'em, what next?

PS, I'm still gonna build a .338-06.

Double PS, could you please use a different color next time, red is obnoxious.



A wise man is frequently humbled.

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,748
P
prm Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
P
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,748
What’s next is that you share pics of your 338-06 build.

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 13,760
J
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
J
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 13,760
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Yeah, I've had three .338-06's over the years. It's a good round, especially for those who want something different on a .30-06 case. But eventually I decided either the .30-06 itself (especially with 200 Partitions) or the .338 Winchester downloaded a little covered the same ground. Also found the 9.3x62 more effective with heavier bullets than the .338-06 or .338 Winchester. This may not sound like a real rifle loony decision, but there it is.


...wet blanket.....grin....

IC B2

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,247
Likes: 1
G
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
G
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,247
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by CRS
But, but, but, stop using logic...… grin

Let's muddy the waters. What if a rifle will not shoot the 200gr NPT, like my 300 H&H? I have to slum a 180gr. grin

With the 338-06 you have more 200-210gr choices. Plus you can slum 180's or bullets heavier than 210gr. cool






LOL, my old H&H loves the 200 and 220gr Partitions, the 338-06 with the mighty 250gr Swift A Frames at 2550 is akin to a baby 375 H&H, what a plow! smile


Trump Won!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,927
CRS Offline
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,927
Quote
Also found the 9.3x62 more effective with heavier bullets than the .338-06 or .338 Winchester.


Please elaborate on the "more effective" part.


Arcus Venator
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,281
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,281
Originally Posted by CRS
Quote
Also found the 9.3x62 more effective with heavier bullets than the .338-06 or .338 Winchester.


Please elaborate on the "more effective" part.


My guess is a bigger hole!

I'm sort of with John on this one... it seems to me the 33 is a tweener. Not really that much of a step up from a 30 cal. - sort of in no-man's-land.

It also seems to me if you're after a bigger hole you might as well get a bigger hole! After all, that is the supposed point of the medium bores, that the bigger hole offers something over the typical 26-30 cal's.


“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,069
Likes: 3
S
Campfire 'Bwana
OP Online Content
Campfire 'Bwana
S
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,069
Likes: 3
So, the .338-06 makes a bigger hole than the .30-06, just not "big enough?"



A wise man is frequently humbled.

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,138
Likes: 10
M
Campfire Kahuna
Online Content
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,138
Likes: 10
CRS,

After using the .338's considerably on a wide variety of big game in the 1990's, I used the 9.3x62 considerably on a similar variety in the 2000's. Also, several hunting companions used the .338 and 9.3x62, providing even more data. Overall the 9.3x62 dropped animals quicker, especially when lung-shot rather than shoulder-shot.

Recently did some analysis of all this with recovered bullets from several calibers. The "mushroom" of .338 bullets didn't average any wider than the mushroom of .30 caliber bullets, but 9.3mm bullets averaged noticeably wider. Plus, though there's some overlap, 9.3 bullets tend to be heavier than .338 bullets. Those I've used (and seen used) weighed from 250-300 grains, while none of the .338's weighed over 250 grains, with most in the 210-230 grain range. It could be disputed whether either of those factors made the difference in the observed results, but would guess they probably did.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
IC B3

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,069
Likes: 3
S
Campfire 'Bwana
OP Online Content
Campfire 'Bwana
S
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,069
Likes: 3
Interesting data on the average size of the mushroomed .30 caliber vs. .338 caliber bullets. I keep hearing that a .30-06 bullet will out-penetrate a .338-06 bullet of similar wieght and construction.

If the bullets expand to the same average diameter, what would explain a difference in penetration?



A wise man is frequently humbled.

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,281
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,281
Originally Posted by smokepole


If the bullets expand to the same average diameter, what would explain a difference in penetration?


The thing that no one talks about any more... SD.

Did you look at the Aagaard article and his penetration tests?


“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,069
Likes: 3
S
Campfire 'Bwana
OP Online Content
Campfire 'Bwana
S
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,069
Likes: 3
Intuitively, it would seem that SD would matter with bullets that didn't expand, Or to put it another way, wouldn't the diameter of the expanded bullet have more of an effect on penetration than SD?



A wise man is frequently humbled.

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,748
P
prm Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
P
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,748
Mass is the engine, frontal area is the brakes. Just play with the ratio throughout penetration.

The issue I have with SD is that it is published for the bullet as loaded. Once it hits the SD is changing as it expands and mass is lost, or not. A Barnes penetrates so well because, in general, the mass is the same throughout the penetration while a cup and core is losing weight.

I did an informal study of SD shooting a bunch of bullets into media. I plotted published SD, penetration, and the resulting SD, I.e. retained weight and resultant frontal area. There was almost zero correlation of penetration to published SD and nearly 100% correlation with the resultant SD.

Last edited by prm; 11/05/18.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,281
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,281
Originally Posted by smokepole
Intuitively, it would seem that SD would matter with bullets that didn't expand, Or to put it another way, wouldn't the diameter of the expanded bullet have more of an effect on penetration than SD?


A .338" 200 gr bullet has a lower SD than a .308" 200 gr bullet... given equal construction, the 30 will always out-penetrate the 33. SD matters in non-mono bullets. Of course it matters in mono's too, just to a lesser degree.


“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,138
Likes: 10
M
Campfire Kahuna
Online Content
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,138
Likes: 10
The expanded diameter has definite effect on penetration, in fact more than retained weight. Have seen this both in "media" testing and big game hunting, In particular some bonded bullets designed to open widely are more often recovered (even from deer-sized animals) than bullets which open to a smaller mushroom, even if both types retain 90% of their weight or more. I've seen this quite a few times with the Hornady Interbond, Norma Oryx and Woodleigh Weldcore.

Sectional density can also have an effect, but primarily when the mushroom is relatively narrow, as it is in most monolithics and some lead-cored bullets, such as the North Fork and Nosler Partition. Essentially, those bullets retain more of their original section density than the wide expanders.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,069
Likes: 3
S
Campfire 'Bwana
OP Online Content
Campfire 'Bwana
S
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,069
Likes: 3
I haven't read the article yet, it's on my list though. I wonder if the bullets available back then had any influence on the results, compared to what we have today.



A wise man is frequently humbled.

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,281
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,281
Originally Posted by smokepole
I haven't read the article yet, it's on my list though. I wonder if the bullets available back then had any influence on the results, compared to what we have today.


My favorite Elk bullet, the Partition, was available.

In Finn's test:

338-06 - 210 NP went 16.8" Penetration.
338-06 - 250 NP went 19.5" Penetration.

30-06 - 200 NP went 21" Penetration.


“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,748
P
prm Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
P
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,748
All would result in an equally dead critter. IMO

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,281
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,281
Originally Posted by prm
All would result in an equally dead critter. IMO



Agreed, but that's not really the point.

The idea is that the 338-06 offers something over the 30-06 on large game... that is it's raison d'etre. That may have been the case prior to "premium" bullets like the Partition, but with today’s great bullets I can't really see it offers anything. If I want a bigger hole than a 30, I'll jump right past 33... which is why I quit the 338 WM about 20 years ago.

But these itches must be scratched...


“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Page 6 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
AX24

626 members (12344mag, 16penny, 17CalFan, 1beaver_shooter, 06hunter59, 160user, 63 invisible), 2,371 guests, and 1,307 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,192,137
Posts18,484,034
Members73,966
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 


Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.



Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.331s Queries: 54 (0.016s) Memory: 0.9133 MB (Peak: 1.0156 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-05-02 14:18:59 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS