Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters 600 yard 30-30

The Henry looks similar.

In the handi rifle I went through calculation of the chamber splitting. I used Lame's formula for thick wall cylinders, calculated many section modulus on forces trying to bend the breech face back, double shear force on the latch pin, and some other things.

a) In the 45/70 Handi rifle I worked up to 405 gr cast with lube bands, CCI 200 primers, 45/70 Win brass, Unique powder 32 gr, 87,841 psi [Quickload calculation]

b) A Stevens OEM break action 410 shotgun looked similar, so I worked up to Win 45C brass CCI200, 405 gr .458 lead cast .981", 40 gr H110 2.75"

c) Savage 219L-D single shot break action 30-30 looked similar, so I worked up to 220 gr HNDY round nose moly W748 2.92" 39 gr W748 92 kpsi [Quickload calculation]

By similar I mean thick chamber wall and beefy breech face.

Clark,
I've used Lame' thick wall formula for pressure calculations and believe you have understanding of the proper applications from our previous correspondences. That said, I'm not a firearms designer, but would like to throw out a caveat; it is my understanding that it is a standard practice to design in a safety factor of 2 for firearms. ie, a system failure at 88kpsi would have a DO NOT EXCEED pressure of 44kpsi.

Chris,
Using Lame's is an improvement over thin wall, although one of Roark's formulas for open end tube would be better. But the barrel it is not a simple open ended tube, and there is no exact formula. The classic example was Ruger boring out the 44 mag for the new 454 model and it blew up in proof testing. The story was in October 16, 2000 issue of Machine Design magazine. I don't know if I can find my copy, but much of that article is here
https://www.cartech.com/en/alloy-te...revolvers-get-lift-from-aerospace-alloys

Per my experiments and calculations, when I overload a 45 Colt or 357 mag revolver and calculate the stress in the steel, it should split that cylinder earlier in the work up, but they don't. Peak PSI does not seem to cause predicted yield in 1 millisecond.
So we are stuck with some experimenting, not only do the stress/ strain formulas break down with complicated barrels, but the steel does yield at high speed the same as it does in static texts in the materials profile.

But to your point about safety.
I am measuring the chamber wall thickness of a 357 magnum at 0.065"
I am measuring the chamber wall thickness of a 30-30 break action at 0.302"
I am measuring the chamber wall thickness of a 410 shotgun break action at 0.275"
I am measuring the chamber wall thickness of a 45/70 break action at 0.312"

The proof pressure is ~ 57,000 PSI on a 357 magnum.

By simple reckoning from the 357 magnum, the break action 30-30 should go to P= .302/.065 [57kpsi] = 265 kpsi.
In a work up until bras flowed or primer pierced, the 30-30 break action would always have more than 2:1 safety margin on the chamber splitting.
I guess I could correct for inside diameter. That term is in thin wall, thick wall, and Roark.
30-30 base is 0.422"
357mag base is 0.379"
That would lower the 30-30 to 238 kpsi, not 265kpsi.

Clark,
I used Lame' because I was looking for peak pressure (hoop and radial) and for that purpose, the chamber acted as a closed ended vessel. The only reason I bring up the safety factor is for someone reading along and taking it as license to run to "run 'er up to what ole Clark says the receiver can handle"...although I understand that was not your intent.

Interesting. I would never try to work up to the levels that you are testing, but it does prove that some cartridges are actually able to tolerate far more than what is considered the norm. I think that it may be fun to work up a pointy bullet to moderate levels, just to see how good the 30-30 can be. I am not trying to make it a .308, or anything bigger, but it would sure be fun to stretch it a bit.

There's always someone who wants to breed a cat to a dog.

Must be cold in the upper pen.

This thread reminds me of the Phil Sarpe article in the March 1952 issue of the American Rifleman. That Old Thutty Thutty.
Phil’s friend Dick Hart came out to visit with a 20lb, 31” barrel, Winchester Hi Wall in 30-30.
The listed velocities were not high as we know them now but we have more varieties of powder.
Here is a picture of Phil at the bench behind the Old Thutty Thutty.

Funny how some bust on a different use of the 30-30.
Make claims against it, and it's capabilities.



But then, we make the 6.5 x 55 smaller (260) and squeeze it to perform.
Then we make it smaller (6.5 creed) and squeeze it to perform

And brag about it.


And make it smaller (6.5 Grendel) and again..... then brag about the performance
in the platform. Hell, the Germans and Sweede's built a cartridge that outperformed
the above back when the 30-30 was new.

Pretty neat. I haven't thought of Phil in a long time.

I bred a cat and a dog. 150 Interlock (spire point), 1/2 moa at 100, 2553 fps, 5 fps es for three shots, no pressure signs. This is with a 7.5-pound trigger! I like it! Lots of close does are going to die with this load!

Just goes to show that the hoary old .30-30 has got some life left in it! Everybody forgets it was the 6.5 Creedmoor of its day 120 years ago.

One day I intend to give it a whirl with 130 TSX's for sh*ts and giggles. Out of a 24" barrel it too may be an eye opener.

I made that comment to someone. My results were with an 18-inch barrel! The 130 out of a 24 should really cook. I think that I would use a standard lead, though, unless you are going to hunt elk with it. I think the SST bullet should work real well for that application. It expands readily, which would stretch the range out a bit. My load provides enough energy (over 900 lbs., at 300 yards) but the velocity with the 150, drops to just over 1700, which is about the limit. The minimum is considered to be 1800 fps for the Interlock, as per Hornady data. No big deal, as I intend to use it for 250 and under anyway.

I used a dummy round to check max length and then backed off a bit, as the Interlock likes to jump a bit. I loaded it to 2.65 oal and dumped 40 grains of CFE223 in the case. I was shocked at the results with the first trial run of the load. No further development needed! The casing fell right out of the chamber, so I could probably push it a bit more, but see no need to. The worst part about this whole thing, is that the rifle has a 7.5 pound trigger. It breaks cleanly, though, so I just have to be careful to follow through and not jerk it. So far, so good.

30/30 Creedmore!

If you want to make the standard .30-30 sing with the 130-grain bullets hunt up a 26" barrel. Its easy to get 2,650 to 2,700 fps using Hodgdon Varget. Between 36.0 and 37.0 grains will do the deed.
In the 20" barrel IMR 4895, 3031 and Alliant Reloder 7 will push the 130 grain bullets 2,450 fps+
36.0 grains of IMR 3031 is a pretty good load.
In the 16" Trapper 31.0 grains of Reloder 7 will give you 2,230 fps.
With the flat nose Speer bullet you have a good flat shooting .30-30 load - maybe not a 300 yard load but a good load for the walking hunter.

If you want higher performance the 20" .30-30AI will push the 130 grain bullet above 2,700 fps with many different powders. Hodgdon 322, 4895, 335 and Alliant Reloder 7 will all deliver the performance you are after.
Grandads 26" barrel .30-30 delivered fine performance and as Whelenman said - The Creedmoer of its day.

That is a real cool article. Because of the anemic actions that were used in the lever guns, the 30-30 was pretty under-rated. This is only the second 30-30 that I have ever owned. The first one was a very accurate Marlin-Westernfield with a tip-off mount and 2.5x scope, that I got for $100. It was like brand new. I traded it straight across for a Savage, left-hand 7 mag.

This rifle intrigued me, because of the strong break-action design and the allowance of shooting longer oal. I think that the common 30-30 brass may not allow for lots of firings, but time will tell as I proceed. I really have no need to press the 30-30 into service that would make it a long-range cartridge. I have plenty of rifles for that. I am just interested in its abilities within reasonable parameters of the cartridge. I will use it primarily for killing deer at ranges under 250 yards. Most summers, I kill 20-50 deer for a neighbor on depredation permits. I hope he comes up with more permits this summer, as I really want to wring out the 30-30 with the 150 Interlocks.

One other thing that makes this rifle fun, is that I doubt that I could ever punch enough moderate-velocity loads through it to damage the barrel. It is limited only by how much playing I want to do with the rifle-which I believe is going to be a bunch. It is low recoil, inexpensive to load for and capable of good accuracy.

I have a number of very accurate rifles that have become boring, because they all just plain shoot about anything. This little smoker has given me something that kind of peaks my interest, because you do not see a lot about people pushing the limits of the cartridge. Fun.

any update?

Nez is waiting on his barrel. Lederer is basically a one man shop, so barrels come out slow.

My first thought too.