Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters 338/06

Guess that was my point about the 210/338 vs 200/308 comparison... I really don't think it's an apples-apples comparison.

Also tend to think a lot of Nosler's data is fairly conservative for the 338-06 out of deference to the myriad of custom (suspect) 338-06's created for decades prior to its legitimization.

Also, Nosler doesn't show their pressure data like Hodgdon so I'm not sure how you know what pressures they're operating at.

All I can report is what I found in my barrel... 2,750 with a 210 was very doable.

I wondered, how long before that one came up? No, Brad I haven't.

My only elk was taken with a 264 Winchester magnum just outside Sandpoint, Idaho. Took a very big whitetail just outside of Colville, Washington with a 280 Remington. Have taken many good sized deer with a 270 Winchester and a 30-06.
My trophy wall has only three deer. One a 154 typical 5X5 and two typical 5X5s both over 162. I'm not much of a hunter by many standards, but I can read at a 9th grade level and the internal/external balistics math is not too far above my educational level.

My hunting life started off with a simple, slightly modified military 7X57.

I could spend the rest of my life with either the 280 or the 30-06 and be quite happy. You have mostly used the 30-06 for your elk hunting, right? Why the move to a Kimber WSM? 30 caliber too, wasn't it?

I don't hunt elk much. Just didn't care that much for it? I do greatly respect your prowess as an elk hunter and appreciate your annual posts. Your photography is splendid too!

My only point in all this is just that if a 270 will do the job, what is so wrong with the 338-06? Well nothing, of course!

So why does everyone seem to be in hormonal stage of banging antlers? If the 338 Winchester magnum is so much better than the 338-06, then doesn't it stand to reason that the 340 Weatherby is even better yet? Answer: Not if she isn't your prom queen!

I like the scribe statement of "use enough gun". Ah, but the eternal question, "What is enough?"

Since you're obviously speaking to me, I'll respond..........

I didn't say that the 270 Win. is a GREAT elk cartridge. The 30-06 is a better elk cartridge than the 270 Win. is, and any of the 7mm, 300, 8mm, 338, and 375 magnums qualify as GREAT elk cartridges. I DID say that the 270 Win. is not a PUNK elk cartridge (something like a 243 Win. qualifies as "punk"), and I base this on my own observations, experiences, the experiences of vetran elk hunters I grew up in the midst of, plus a lifetime of living and 30 + years of hunting in a top western elk state (Oregon -- not Ohio), and I've hunted elk in a number of others as well, on both a guided and unguided basis. I've bent over a lot of dead elk in my life, believe me..........

Because of where I live, I've also been around a great many rifles that were purchased for use against elk, and with the large number of elk hunters at our gunclub (3000 members) I've seen just about everything used against paper, I've listened to countless blow-by-blow stories of elk hunts, and I've run scores and scores of bullets from various rifles over the chronograph. After a while, connecting the dots becomes less difficult than is was when you were 20 years old.

There's no question that the 338-06 will kill elk, and it will kill them well. But it won't kill them any deader or any faster than a properly-loaded 30-06 will, plus it's not as good or as practical an elk cartridge as the 338 Win. Mag.. And logistically, it's far inferior to any well-established, standard factory chambering (the 338-06 might be SAAMI now, but it's far from standard), especially if you intend to hunt far from home as well as within driving distance from your loading bench. It will do nothing that the much more established, versatile, and practical 338 Win. Mag. won't do better, pure and simple.


AD

No, I wasn't really talking to you. I was actually talking to Brad. You are not the only person I've encountered who thinks highly of the 270. Hell, my cousin would probably try to kill an elephant with the damn thing. He's read too many articles about how elephants can be killed with the 7X57!

You see, I respect Brad's achievements. He's posted them here for us without a condescending attitude.(Well mostly) I really don't give a tinker's damn about you or your opinions. I just like to pull your chain once in a while since you are so full of yourself.

You readily take the bait each and every time. Pontifications from arrogant horse's azzez tickle my funny bone! I think guys like you tend to forget we all have accecss to reloading books and computer programs, right along with chronographs and the such.

Where one lives makes no matter. I can easily afford to hunt
anywhere I desire, and for any game animal that strikes my fancy.
There is only one animal that I still have a desire to hunt other than my annual whitetailed deer. That would be the billy goat. Brad posted a picture this year that melted my heart.

But alas, at 62 years of age, I seriously doubt I'm physically able to make such a hunt? I don't read rags anymore. I can get wall-to-wall commericals anywhere! I would like to see Brad make the trek, and report it here on the campfire!

I'd have you on ignore, but you are so damned funny! And the 338 Winchester magum eats the dust of the 340 Weatherby! And the point is? No, don't answer that. I've laughed hard enough for one day!

We miss you over at AR.

I take all of that as a high compliment, even though it was not intended to be such.........

Brad is a true westerner, and a veteran elk hunter of great and consistent experience. He knows rifles, he can surely get up the mountain, and he knows how to hunt and cut it on his own under all conditions. I don't see anything coming out of him that's outlandish, untrue, or impractical in any way. I never have. What DOES come out of him speaks of veteran experience, which does not always digest well, I know.

AD

I believe that logic would lead the elk hunter to a cartridge in which he has confidence. I've killed more than a few elk with both the .30-'06 and the .338-'06; they both work and work exceedingly well. My personal feeling, over many elk, is that the .338-'06 has the edge. Your mileage may vary, depending on the number of elk slain with both and prejudice if you have not killed lots of elk.

To some degree, it depends on the individual rifle, as well. Some rifles just have the "magic." They fit perfectly and seemingly kill way out of their league. I have a 7SGLC that shoots 120 Ballistics at 3,250 fps that handles like a fine English shotgun and is my lucky elk rifle. Bulls get up and the SGLC lays them right down....pronto.

So, is the 7SGLC a great elk rifle???? I can state that in my hands that my individual rifle sure as heck is.

Beyond all of this, the hunter himself is by far the most important element. We used to have rich-dudes show up in elk camp who never shot from year to year; guess what, they failed to kill and one of us grunts ended up running down their bulls and killing them. I cannot stress enough that the hunter should train year around, he should get lots of trigger time, he should practice in field positions (archery targets are great) and he should know the animal and scout, scout, scout.

The hunter is WAY more important than the cartridge or rifle.

Guns don't kill critters, I KILL CRITTERS!!!!!

Steve

I think you might misunderstand if you think my post was to voice anything but admiration for Brad's hunting prowess. It
digests well for me 99.9% of the time. No one can agree 100%
without turning into a condescending butt kisser!

7SGLC = Simpson's Great Little Cartridge? (7mm-308 improved)

Geeze, Where you been, Steve? You voiced what I was thinking better than I ever could! Rifles are indeed an entity unto themselves, especially wildcats. And I still regard the 338-06 a wildcat since most rifles of this caliber were built pre SAAMI specs or pretty much disregard them. Now as to the hunter being the most important element, WDM Bell proved that point endlessly.

BTW, I noticed that my rifles didn't shoot any better in Idaho and Washington State than they do here in Ohio? Must be something wrong with them?

I'd still use my 338-06AI for elk. Not because it's better, but just because I WANT to!

Only thing I don't understand is why scout if you are hiring a
guide? Not everyone lives in hunting land. Some of us who reside in less than desireable states for elk might have a problem with that one?

However, Ohio does have some of the biggest deer found anywhere in America! Yes, scout, scout and scout! Right after finding
a good place to do so!

if there is any value in a feral hog it would probably be as a ballistic testing platform.. i've used a larger variety of rifles and cartridges because of the availability of huntable populations of hogs...
as to the "unkillable" reputation of the feral hog, well..... ...john w

My last two hogs illustrate the hog killing reputation. I shot
both with a 280 loaded up with 160gr partitions. The first one dropped like a rock. Big puzzy died instantly. The second was
shot pretty much the same distance, in the same place at about the same angle. This sucker got up, located me each time and tried his best to get even. Took four shots to make him quit!

Now does this mean the 280 with the Nosler partition is a great hog cartridge or a complete dog? I guess I'l have to slay a
couple thousand to answer that question adequately? Does the experiment still count if I switch to Speer 175 grain Grand Slams?

Tell us more about the cartridges you used, JohnW. And how well they did in your opinion and experience. Inquiring minds like to know!

As I remember: Finn Aagaard compared the .338-06, .35 Whelen, and the 9.3X62 and stated he liked all three, but went on to say that if he thought he needed more than his .30-06 he would probably go to his .375 H&H.

That he did, Lad. That he did! But that's only because he already had the 375. He didn't own a 340 Weatherby!

You know, I used to really enjoy the Campfire, but, it is going downhill rapidly with uncalled for personal slurs instead of comments based on reasonable courtesy, mutual respect and an appreciation for other's experiences. I find this type of behaviour both disgusting and self-revealing; it strikes me as based on an infantile jealousy of those who actually DO and HAVE DONE what they comment on.

I will just say that Allen Day is one of about the top five consistently knowledgable, experienced and practical posters on ANY guns/hunting/backpacking forum I have visited. To use terms such as ...horse's ass...in reference to him is pretty pathetic, IMO, and Accuratereloading is a forum that pales in comparison to the Campfire, although there are MANY great people there.

I ALSO live in GREAT game country and I was BORN, RAISED and WORKED with wildlife, fish and forests most of my 60 years. SO, I HAVE bent over the odd animal and probably seen more REAL wilderness than most here. Yet, I find that AD, JJHAACK, .458 Win. and a few others are CONSISTENTLY courteous, respectful and base their opinions on huge realtime experience....finances have SWFA to do with it....and I am not poverty-stricken, either.

There are places here in BC, where an older, flatlander CAN get a very decent RMGoat, the outfitters in the Similkameen/Boundary country take some fine ones every season and the GOABC website can give details on this. WE have to "draw" for these and quotas for non-res. hunters/GOs are being cut due to resident pressure and the Indians, so, anyone who wants a goat CAN get one.....unless they have MY consistent "bad luck" on goat hunts.

Very simply, we should all be friends here, NOBODY is the ulitmate hunter, me especially, so, slagging is kinda foolish, eh?

my favorite, and the one that i carried and used more than any other, was a ruger 77r in .243... i started with the speer 90 spitzer and had great luck... for many years, though, my go to hunting load was the sierra 85 bthp loaded fast with dupont 4895...
hogs can be difficult to hunt in daylight, and difficult to shoot in thick cover.... if well shot, they generally expire quickly...

the actual list of cartridges i've used on feral hogs would be quite long, including the .22 rf and the .45-70 (one hog with each... pretty much equal results), and the 12 and 16 ga. shotshell loaded with 6s

M/D,
I have read your replies on this post and would like to reiterate some of your points and respectfully disagree with some as well.

I have owned many 338-06 rifles since 1981 and have taken many animals including a half dozen elk with them.

You say the 200 grain 30-06 and the 210 grain 338 would be launched at the same velocity at same pressure, or words to that effect, and I will disagree with that. The area of the .308" bullet is .075 square inches, the .338" is .090". At the same pressure the 308 has 4500 pounds of force and the 338 has 5400 pounds. That is an increase of 20%. That 20% will relate to an increase of bullet weight of 20% . A .338 caliber bullet of 217 grains is the equal of a .308 caliber bullet of 180 grains, in both SD and area. The 200 grain .308 has the same sectional density of a 240 grain 338 bullet. Bullets with equal SD respond equally to the same pressure. We would have to consider the greater friction of the greater area of the 338 circumference but still the pressure vs velocity of the 200 grain .308" bullet is not comparable to the 210 grain .338" bullet. The 225 grain would be a much close match to achieve velocity comparable to the 200 grain bullet from the 30-06 case, and in my experience it does.

All this is based on the same volume of powder of the same burning rate, which doesn't work, the 338 uses faster powder so it balances out, and my test and experience does play this out.

All that aside, this is a great caliber. As I compare it to the 30-06 for elk, my experience with the '06 has been with 180 grain bullets, and I see a difference with the 338-06 with either the 210 or 225 partition, but nothing to write home about. I've never had a problem with the '06 either but don't push it beyond what I consider it's capabilities. It's (338-06) advantage seems notable for bigger animals at closer range.

Now as to velocity of the 210 partition in the 338-06, it is prety much a 2750 fps round on the top end. I've never got a 30-06 200 grain to that velocity.

The Weatherby/Norma ammo with the 210 partition is advertised at 2750 fps and is close to that. My 23" M97 gives 2727 fps and my 24" Sako/Shilen rifle will give 2731 fps. My handloads with RL-15 are loaded to the same level. As for the AI version, I have one that is a very good shooter but I would not do that again. It is a good rifle but there is no ballistic advantage. I've owned four of these in AI and none would get a 210 partition above 2800 fps. (at pressures where I like to run it) I think the problem is powder. RL-15 is too fast for the AI case and H4350 is too slow. Maybe there is a powder out there but there is no real advantage. A 210 partition at about 2750 is a great load, just as a 30-06 with a 180 partition at 2750.

Regards,

OK, This is where I should have posted my long reply but in reference to the camp.....I'm in the 'do camp'.

Here again I disagree with the 200gr .308 vs the 210gr .338, see above. The 225 gr 338 and the 200 gr 308 will launch at the same velocity and pressure. 30-06, 180 partition, 23" m97, 2620 fps 56.0 grains of RL-19. 338-06, 225 partition, 23" m97, 2625 fps, 58.0 grains H4350. Try it sometime. Both these loads are under 60,000 psi.

I think the AI advantage is not ballistic,rather a wider choice of powders(4350 class) for the same velocity.

As a moose hunter I tend to favour expansion over penatration. Moose head for the swamp when they feel bothered.

Yep. I think that's it. 4350 for the AI and RL-15 for the standard. With 225 or 250 grains the AI shows more advantage.

Murphy--

Or we can approach it in other ways:

1) One of "The Rules" I wrote about last year in HANDLOADER: Any increase in bore area allows an increase in velocity of one-quarter that increase in cases of the same size, at the same pressure.

The .338 has just about 20% advantage over the .30 in bore area. Thus a 5% advantage in driving the same bullet weight. This means that if a .30-06 can push a 200-grain bullet to 2688 fps (Nosler data), then the .338 can push a 200 to 2822 at the same pressure.

Now, since we are talking a 210 rather than a 200, we invoke another rule: potential muzzle velocity increases or decreases at half the difference in bullet weight.

Do the math and we find the .338/210 can be given 2754 fps (210 + 200/2 divided by 210 x 2822). This happens to be just about exactly what several loads in the Hornady manual suggest.

Thus the .338-06/210 has about a 66 fps advantage over the .30-06/200.

You can do the math with these formulas (and the others I listed in the article) and come within a few fps every time. That is because they were derived by crunching the numbers from a bunch of pressure-tested data. They work.

2) Now that we have established that, rather than relying on what any handloader says he can "get" out his rifle (I have gotten 2750 fps out of a 200 in a .30-06, and 2900 from a 180--in a 22" barrel with "no pressure signs") let's look at what happens downrange. Within 200 yards the .30-06 load has slightly passed the .338 in velocity; beyond that the advantage increases. This according to the BC's in the Nosler manual: .400 for the 210 .338, .481 for the 200 .30.

Add to that the fact that the 200 .30 Partition will out-penetrate the 210 .338. This is not just theory based on sectional density, but fact based on a lot of testing and hunting. In media the 200/.30 will generally outpenetrate the 210/.338 by 25%. I have also seen the 210 .338 stopped by a 150-pound whitetail buck on a quartering shot. I have seen exactly one 200 .30 Partition stopped by any animal, on a rear-end shot on a raghorn bull elk.

So, we are right back to where I started in the beginning: there just isn't all that much difference between the .338-06 with lighter bullets and the .30-06 with heavier bullets.

But all of this "ballistic gack" (as Mark D. would put it) is really beside the point. If we want a .338-06 we should get one. The whole point of this, if we are not one of those hunters who has one rifle for all his big game hunting, is fun and games with various toys.

Personally, beyond rifles chambered for a few cartridges that I find most useful, I am these days far more interested in a new rifle because of the RIFLE, not the chambering.

If you are looking for a good powder to try in the .338-06 between RL-15 and H4350, Ramshot Big Game is an excellent one. I have found it to work great in a number of cartridges when that particular "powder gap" occurs.

JB

I've always appreciated your posts, Kute. But Geeze, buddy, your post is rather like the pot calling the kettle black!

You are the most opinionated guy I've ever met(?) and quickly shout down anyone who doesn't agree with you. And you are perhaps too quick to use the ole I've done this and that my whole life stuff.

Now I appreciate your grumpy mannerisms, Hell, I guess I even like them. My personal dispute with Mr. Day is not about the quality or even the accuracy of his claims, but rather the
"I know it all" attitude I feel whenever he posts. I
suppose the term I should have used was "pompus azz"? Can't help it. That's the way I perceive his posts?

Jealousy? I doubt it! I too was born and raised in the mountains. Lived in California, Idaho and Washington State
out west.

I am familiar with, and have hunted in some pretty rugged country myself. I just don't wear the fact as if it were equal in importance to the medal of honor.

Now please don't take this personally, but I have absolutely NO desire to hunt in your beloved Canada! I don't like the rules, and I don't like the laws. And from what I've read, I probably won't like the guides or outfitting services either. Too many Americans who post on the sites I frequent have been taken to the cleaners during their stays up north. This is no reflection on you for sure!

I too used to like the campfire. But nobody likes those who pontificate. I like you well enough to abide by your wishes.
I will not allow myself to speak out as to how I feel about people personally.

We seem to have about half a dozen people who have done everything and know everything, so my posts won't add much to any discussions. From this point on, I'll try to just lurk and laugh! Enjoy.

Regards,

Don