Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Why Ballistics Gel Works And Caliber Arguments Are Dumb

Connect percentages,trump miss percentages and reduced recoil is THE route.

Hint...............

Neither the ability to kill a deer cleanly nor 20 inches of penetration in a human factor into my thought process when it comes to self-defense. I don't need either of these characteristics to stop a human. Even FBI spec ammo isn't designed to meet both of those criteria, and it is doing fine every day.

FBI agents shot and killed 70 individuals between 1993 & 2012 (only stats I could find) which is 19 years, so roughly 3.7 a year, so one every 3 months and a few days.

How's that define their ammo choice doing fine "every day".

Not talking about the FBI. I am talking about all of the police agencies throughout the country who use ammo manufactured to meet the FBI specifications.

The some really ingnorant thangs being posted in this thread, however I do want to correct a myth that is commonly repeated...


Every single military/Fed unit/organization that has a choice, has realistic and consistent high level training, and actually kills people with handguns on the regular have choosen 9mm. EVERY SINGLE ONE. When a couple of those units did use 45’s, it had a lot less to do with the round, and much more to do with the platform- (custom 1911’s). The military units that actually kill people with pistols are very happy with modern 9mm... Just like the FBI. Because when seen in large numbers there just isn’t a noticeable difference between 9mm/40/45 in people.



As for the FBI developing new loads/bullets all the time... well I would hope so? Technology changes.




All that aside, the military units that actually do the killing with pistols have validated and use the FBI’s criteria for a reason.

The 45ACP in any modern form, the 40 SW in any modern form, and the 9mm in any modern form looks like they produce almost exactly the same result in human tissue. Normal CCW Pistols are just not that powerful. The .380 is almost as good as the others and has enhanced effectiveness because many people can shoot it better than the hevier recoiling 40 or 45 ACP. You 45ACP advocates find us someone to interview that has taken 2-3 FMJ .38 Cal rounds from a glock 42 into their sternum. Put a Ruger LCR 22LR into grandma's hands and break into her house, if she hits you anywhere above the belt near the center your not going to be hanging around with your homey's to steal her social security money.

...really...apparently you have no clue how guns and ammo are chosen....and if that is the case why since the Army standardized on the 9mm that my friend's son, who just got promoted to a Major in SF, is still carrying the same Glock 22 in .40 S&W he was issued when he went into SF about 6 years ago... Funny that the guys who really do use a handgun in battle don't choose the 9mm...

They may all kill but they don't all kill the same...

Bob

Frequently, forensic pathologists cannot distinguish the wound track caused by a hollow point bullet (large temporary cavity) from that caused by a solid bullet (very small temporary cavity). There may be no physical difference in the wounds. If there is no fragmentation, remote damage due to temporary cavitation may be minor even with high velocity rifle projectiles.19 Even those who have espoused the significance of temporary cavity agree that it is not a factor in handgun wounds:

Physiologically, a determined adversary can be stopped reliably and immediately only by a shot that disrupts the brain or upper spinal cord. Failing a hit to the central nervous system, massive bleeding from holes in the heart or major blood vessels of the torso causing circulatory collapse is the only other way to force incapacitation upon an adversary, and this takes time. For example, there is sufficient oxygen within the brain to support full, voluntary action for 10-15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed.28

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed."43

Can someone tell me how a .093 smaller diameter bullet that penetrates 20 inches of denim covered ballistic gelatin is worse than a .093 diameter bigger bullet that penetrates about the same?

Handgun Caliber Effectiveness

anyone with the ability to use google can find this.

https://www.scribd.com/document/252518687/Handgun-Wounding-Factors-and-Effectiveness

Thanks for the input, Bob.

Form,
Did you tell them they make 1911 9mm's?

What is this "seen in large numbers"? WWI-WWII type numbers, or most everyone uses a 9mm today type numbers?

On a limited scale, just using 9mm/38 and comparing them to 40 calibers or larger, deer sized critters seem to notice the bigger stuff and even a blind man can figure that out, especially with solids. A good 22 to the head is plenty; why not 22's? 32's?
The plain fact is that, over time, a good deal of sidearm "investigating" has been done by the FBI and (other the 10mm), has continuously chosen (virtually) the same cartridge with different bullets over and over again and some find it a bit silly they've made the same declarations in the past.

It's pretty simple, its called damage.

Would you pick a .224 bullet that stays .224 caliber, with a nice pointy meplat, or would you rather that bullet expand to .32 caliber, maybe even give up some of that penetration?

This is how smaller bullets do the work of larger ones, mechanically. In solid form, everything else relies on displacement.

I’m extremely interested to know how many game animals you’ve taken with the aforementioned defensive calibers? I am also extremely interested in how many gun fights you’ve been involved in with the aforementioned defensive calibers.

Gotta hand it to you guys, I would have bet good money that this has been hashed over so many times it would be impossible to get a good vitriolic epic thread going. You can always count on the'Fire.

Hawk1 your just joshing us! No one can be believe that a 0.09 inch difference makes a huge difference! Why most everyone understands that penetration in key and a few hundredth of inches do not. NO one can be that silly.

Yeah Form,
Cause if you haven't killed a truck load of critters with a 9mm, or killed at least 5 men (one with each common SD caliber) JWP475 ain't gonna believe you, and I know that will ruin your day.

Why can’t we all just get along?

So your telling me you hunt with a 223 and don't care one ire about expansion, because it doesn't do anything. That's what I keep hearing from you and that's what is fallacious on your part.

I also keep hearing from your sources (and you) there isn't any difference in bullet diameter. If that's the case, why would any agency just not adopt .251's or 32's, since they have so much conclusive evidence they all pretty much do the same thing.

Certainly recoil would lessen, capacity would go up and everything you're chirping about wouldn't have any argument to the contrary, but apparently even the FBI draws the line at 35.....for unknown reasons.

Five...four...three...two...one...

Of course!

The theory has come full circle....I've been so silly all this time.
I'd bet a sugar cookie this miracle concept also has fully tested ninjitsu bullet to go along with the "package"...didnt see that coming, no sir....

I know what I'm picking to cap a deer right up the spout next year....and the FBI figured it all out. Hell, Kel-tec of all companies have (apparently) solved every 22 Mag contraption issue as well, sheesh!
Those bullets good for rear quartering shots at 75 yards?