From Lucky Gunner, an interview with Federal ballistics experts. I thought the discussion of handgun velocity and energy starting at 6:40 was particularly interesting.

Interesting. I was having a few conversations like those with my son at the range today; which caliber, bullet type, etc.

Purty easy to simply shoot schit and extrapolate findings.

Hint.................

Cheyenne, thanks for posting this video. I've got a lot of respect for the guys in this video. I've done a fair bit of shooting with Johann (IDPA), and have worked with him a few times as well.

One of the things these guys will do at LE seminars is offer to participants the opportunity to shoot their carry loads into their calibrated ballistic gelatin blocks. This has been interesting, to say the least. A lot of people who carried 380's for "pocket" or "deep backup" guns got rid of them after such demonstrations.

A 22LR 40gr solid,will outdig a 380.

That ain't gellatin talkin'.

Hint................(grin)

On the street there are just too many variables..real life is not a block of Jello....

I think the most important statement in the whole presentation was "carry what you shoot best". You have to put rounds on target otherwise all the MagicBullets in the magazine do you no good...

Bob

Dead Schit...is dead schit.

Hint..............

That’s for sure and certain

I wasn't guessing.

Hint.................

I like everyone’s comments.

Some takeaways for me are:
1. Ballistics gel doesn’t literally translate into performance on a living organism.
2. It is only through correlating the gel performance with reports from law enforcement sources that the model is validated.
3. Carry what you shoot well and make hits.
4. The model is just talking about people.
Items 1-3 are things that we hear, in some form or fashion and in bits and pieces, from numerous people on Internet forums. But, I have not seen them in a clear, concise presentation from authoritative sources who work the lab side and the end user side.



That’s probably the gold standard. The availability of test subjects is sometimes spotty, and those pesky game and fish laws get in my way with the calibers I like to carry. I guess most of us get the most experience in that field with game and non-game critters using the legal calibers. It’s just hard to test on low frequency, high danger things like people and apex predator critters.

As to item 4 and apex predator critters, I think we do need to do some different testing than just shooting gel. We do need to know how bullets perform against different kinds of flesh and bone. Also, mass-marketed general self-defense ammo is constrained by overpenetration concerns, which is not as big a consideration in the woods. It certainly is not a concern with hunting rifle ammo! Finally, gel testing mostly is done in “duty” calibers, not necessarily the variety of calibers that people carry afield. So, most of us play in conditions outside the parameters of current gel testing. The best tests are shooting legal game and varmints and shooting facsimiles of that which we are constrained by circumstances or law to not shoot.

It also is good that we have many posters on this forum who have been there, done that, and can share their actual experiences.



I was fortunate enough to see Hornady do its FBI test dog and pony show. They also took guns and ammo from the audience and ran them through the protocols. I came away feeling that most of the “duty” ammo in 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP works. Even if a round “failed” a test, it usually was because it went a slight bit past 18 inches. (One big fail was a Barnes Tac-XPD fired from a .45 that was way short in barrier tests.)

As far as .380 was concerned, I don’t recall that anyone had a .380 other than the Hornady reps. They only ran Critical Defense through bare gel and clothed gel, and it “passed.” They were not going to attempt it with the other barriers. OTOH, I have been playing with Buffalo Bore hard cast and Lehigh rounds in water and other media, and they sure seem capable to me. I also don’t see someone walking away from a few Gold Dots in important places. If I need a pocket gun, I’ll still take the .380 over a J frame. But, that’s just me.

Those gentleman said something I've believed for a good many years.

It's about the bullet. With modern bullet technology, caliber just doesn't matter as much as it used to.

Carry something that always goes bang, that you can shoot well, with a good modern bullet.

The rest, although fun to discuss, just isn't as important.

Now we know that caliber doesnt matter all people will be carrying 380 Autos and 9MM's.
I am glad that is settled once and for all with this video.
I am for one grateful for information such as this. It will archived for future use and occasional reedification of my self.

Placement trumps all and everything leads with it's head.

Hint.................

I've never been against handloading your own ammo for self defense purposes, but...

I really liked what the guy said about getting the right speed. He said something to the effect that they can lose penetration when they increase speed, because the bullet expands sooner and expands more--so, don't get hung up on speed; the idea is to get sufficient penetration AND sufficient expansion.

Incorporating that thought to handloading self defense ammo: I doubt most of us test our handloads in tissue or even gel. A handloader doesn't really know what to expect from his loads. So a handloader's best best is to try to replicate loads that have been tested (a given bullet at a given speed), or just load a hard cast bullet at sufficient speed to penetrate.

I especially enjoyed them hammering home a point that is often ignored even though it's never been a secret: You gotta hit what you're aiming at, rather than hoping to shoot "good enough" and let your super magnum make up for poor marksmanship.

Crap. Stick and I were typing at the same time, making the same point about marksmanship.

I guess Karamojo Bell was a good example that placement is key.

Insinuate..............

glockdoofus,

EXACTLY. = SHOT PLACEMENT is the PRIME thing in stopping an assault or taking game. - A MISS will a howitzer is still a miss.

yours, tex

Imitation is THE most Sincere form of Flattery.

Hint.................

Shot placement is King, penetration is Queen, all else is gravy.

One of a multitude of reasons I've schlepped a 22LR Pistole for Bear "defense",for better than 30 years.

Hint.................

Waders, we agree on this point. Many years ago I picked up a kernel of knowledge from Paco Kelly, who advised his readers to test ALL of their bullets and loads in test media, so one could say with confidence how those loads would work on game (and critters). I took that to heart, and boy, did I learn a thing or three.

I've been testing my "serious" handloads in ballistic media of various descriptions for a long time now. Initially, a good friend and I were able to use animal carcasses pretty freely (his grandfather owned a rendering plant), and it was eye-opening. (Suffice to say I learned I don't need to drive my 45 Colt bullets quite as hard as I'd been driving them...) I had a lot of opportunities to shoot ballistic gelatin for a time, as well, when I still lived in Wisconsin. These days I use the plastic gel media you can buy on the internet, which is a lot less messy than gelatin and a lot less temperature sensitive. That and water-filled milk jugs. All of my hunting loads, including the ones I shoot out of my rifles at game, get tested.

But I buy my personal defense pistol ammunition, for exactly the reason you cite. The guys at the ballistics labs at Federal-ATK, Winchester-Western, and Buffalo Bore (among others, of course, but those are the ones I use primarily) optimize their ammunition for best bullet performance and reliability. It's worth spending the extra dough for that. I reload all my training ammo, which is incidentally tailored to match my carry load ballistics. Win win.

We used to slaughter hogs on the farm using an old knife that hung on the wall in the barn. My dad persuaded my uncle in the mid-60's that his .22 pistol did a better job, and was less messy. It did, and it was.

Dad's .22 didn't work quite as well on cattle, though... thicker skulls, I expect. They certainly look so when you run them through the bandsaw, though I never got out the dial calipers to quantify. Anyways, we used my grandfather's .455 Webley (the only other handgun Dad owned) on the slaughter steers after the first couple of .22 caliber rodeos. I prefer 45's myself, nowadays, although I'd be just as comfortable with a .38 Special for such purposes.

YMMV.

Great vid.

Notice that the professionals didn't recommend wide-meplat hardcast as the ultimate permanent wound cavity maker. Why? Because hardcast is a deep hole-driller - nothing more.

But can make consistently ugly wounds.

Um... yes, and no. They didn't mention wide meplat bullets because Federal doesn't make any, nor load any in their defensive ammunition... and the discussion was about personal defense ammunition, not hunting ammunition. I have discussed WFN and LFN cast bullets with Johann Boda, though, and he/they have tested them. They work as advertised and drill very deep holes.

A permanent wound cavity is, essentially, a deeply-drilled hole. Which is exactly what you want in a solid bullet used on dangerous game. The best-performing solid bullets are wide-meplat flat nosed bullets, made of hard and heavy metal such as tungsten or mild steel. These bullets will run straight as a die from one side of an elephant's head to the other, which increases your chances of hitting the brain for a stopping shot. They'll also run lengthwise through a charging buffalo or hippo. They're not for shooting impala or pronghorn, they are for stopping dangerous game.

You don't need such bullets for North American hunting, or for personal defense. I used to load WFN bullets at velocities that would run them lengthwise through a dead Clydesdale horse carcass. I eventually figured out that I didn't need 6 feet of penetration to kill a whitetail deer standing broadside to me, and stopped worshiping at the altar of Our Lady of High Velocity LBT Bullets at that point. They work very well in the right place, but nearly all my cast hunting bullets now are cast to a hardness that's about what Elmer Keith used to use (he called them "hard cast", with a BHN of 12-14, much softer than the BHN of 18-20 of many of today's commercial WFN-type bullets). And I've found that WFN bullets don't kill deer and hogs any better than Keith SWC's. But I still cast and shoot both types.

As several have pointed out, there is some really complex physics involved. Duncan Macpherson's book would be a good place to start, if you can find a copy.

I'm in the same position on all except a difference in that last paragraph: The commercial manufacturers have to "optimize" their ammo for function in every firearm that consumers might use, but I can optimize my own serious loads for just my gun; I don't have to make concessions to function in anyone else's gun, and can find the best load for mine. I load my own defensive ammo for that reason. (That does NOT mean loading in a different velocity range than the bullet was designed for, it just means minor tweaks in seating depth, powder charge and type, etc to get best performance in my own equipment.) It's the same reasoning for loading my own precision rifle ammo instead of buying commercial match ammo.

The bit about the "right" speed is absolutely important, and makes a lot more difference than the average consumer realizes.

If I ever piss off Anheuser-Busch, I'm calling you...

Yondering, you make a good point. I have no quarrel with you on that point!

I usually carry a 1911 in 45 ACP as my personal defense weapon, so of course all ammunition in that caliber will function flawlessly in my defensive pistols...

I wish we had a “like” button on this forum. Lots of great posts in this thread.

Like!
🤓

I thought that the "crux or key" in this presentation is between 9:25 -- 9:35, and that about summed it up for me...

Been my experience as well.

The expanding handgun bullet is rife with speed do's and don'ts and the mechanics of such are what limits them at spitting distances and over yonder, which is why they need to advertise how awesome they are (and some are very good) within their windows.

Handgun solid testing is probably repetitively boring...

Yep; ammo manufacturers, if it weren't for the need for a one size fits all, would cover more ground with just using lead alloys and ditching the jackets, for handgun rounds.

Being a long time revolver hunter, I have never found a media worth shooting into. My tests have been necropsies on deer. There is bone and lungs that contain liquid but also a lot of air. I do not carry and never had a need to shoot a perp but placement to put a hurt on him should do the trick. Penetration in the field is what you want but energy must be applied in just the right distance and even if a bullet goes to the moon after, it will kill fast.
I understand carry means less penetration to protect innocent people. The problem is most carry guns are not accurate enough, have fixed sights, etc.
However we always played with all kinds of stuff to shoot into for fun. Once we were fishing Rocky River and found a bank of blue clay. We went back to get a few 5 gallon buckets of it to make clay blocks. It was pretty stuff. I had to go to work but my friend took his and poured water in and could not wait to test. He failed to make a block. He set it up in his basement and took the .44 mag and shot it. Every joist dripped blue muck and it took him a week to wash the basement.
My fastest deer killer is the BFR in .475 Linebaugh. By setting up gallon jugs of water it will blow 4 sky high and split the fifth.Then my bullet penetrated all 17 jugs in a straight line. I figured I could catch it but NOT. It showed where the energy was. I made the mold as an almost WFN cast from WW's and water dropped. Never would I use it for defense as it would take out my 4 runner too. If inside every wall would be penetrated.
I recently acquired a pile of guns from a friends son when his dad died. I have 2 .380's and the most accurate is the 1908 Colt pocket pistol with a Browning second. A friend carries a newer gun and has to aim well off to hit. Under stress he would not remember where to hold.

bfr... I used to shoot heavy loads on deer, as well. I eventually figured out it wasn't necessary. If my bullet puts 2 holes in the deer and punctures lungs and/or heart on the way through, the deer will die in short order. Much like your 17 water jugs demonstrated, most of the energy of those 325 gr bullets leaving the muzzle at 1300+ fps was expended long after perforating the deer I was shooting at. I eventually realized that a 265 gr bullet stepping out at 900-1000 fps would do the job just as well, and did a lot less damage to my hand.

The FBI protocol for defense/service loads is 12-14 inches. They chose that penetration depth for a reason: these bullets/loads won't shoot through the torso of a human being, averting the liability of subsequent perforation of bystanders downrange. As hunters, we know that having 2 holes in what we are trying to kill is better for tracking game to the location of the dead animal. When shooting humans, tracking to find the carcass ain't quite as important. So I can live with the FBI's penetration model, and that is why I don't carry WFN loads in my carry pistol(s). I should note that when I'm out in the field or mountains, where overpenetration is a virtue rather than a liability, my sidearm is (usually) stoked with flatnose cast bullets.

Not being able to remember where to hold under stress is a huge problem with police firearms training. I've tried to do my part in addressing this training problem, and so far it's working. www.tacticalanatomy.com

Link is bad.

Hmm. Checking with webmaster.

Doc: How do you define WFN? Specifically what percentage of the bullet diameter does the meplat diameter need to be to qualify as a Wide Flat Nose as opposed to a Long Flat Nose? Would you consider the Federal 41 Rem Mag 250 Grain Castcore (P41B) a WFN? The meplat diameter is 79% of bullet diameter (.325 divided by .410).

Did you check on LBT Website? Wasnt he the one that coined the term back in the 1980's? Seems that would be the place ro go to.
At least I would.

Essentally what the guys in the video are saying is that at "handgun velocities", gelatin penetration depth and diameter of recovered projectile tells (more or less) the whole story of stopping power.
I'm skeptical.

Ummmmm...no fhuqking schit.

Hint................

What about occasions where LEO need to shoot through glass windows, or car doors. It's difficult to believe that all handguns penetrate the same through barriers.

Veral Smith's definitions aren't spelled out anywhere I can find (I think Stanton does in his Beartooth Bullets manual, but I'm not positive on that). Here's what I've noted for calibers I cast for:

1. WFN - Wide Flat Nose bullets have a meplat about 80-81% of bullet diameter
2. LFN - Long Flat Nose bullets tend to run a meplat of about 72-73% of bullet diameter
3. WLN - Wide Long Nose bullets have meplats around 78-79% of bullet diameter
4. FN - Flat Nose bullets have meplats anywhere from 72% to 78% of bullet diameter
5. SWC - Keith style Semi-Wadcutter bullets vary from 69% to 78% of bullet diameter, depending on the bullet in question

... so there's no hard and fast rule here. I tend to use "WFN" as a generic term for any bullet with a meplat of near 80% bullet diameter, because they're slightly wider than the Keith SWC and tend to fly straight. I don't know that they hit any harder than Keith designs, but they were all the rage when I got into bullet casting, so I bought the hype and invested in LBT and other moulds with that profile rather than SWC's. I

I like LBT bullets and molds, and I like Beartooth Bullets (which are LBT designs, for the most part). But I use other bullets as well. The Lee 265 gr 0.452 caliber bullet has an 82% meplat diameter, for instance, and I find it shoots and feeds really well in both revolvers and rifles, and I can cast a lot more of them with my 6-bullet gang mould in a unit of time than I can cast LBT bullets out of a proprietary mould.

After reading Fryxell's book on casting (great, great book!) I started trying a couple SWC designs, and I'm not convinced either the LBT or the KSWC design is better than the other. The key is use good alloy and cast consistently good bullets of the right hardness for your purpose, and find loads that work in your guns.

They don't. Performance through intermediate barriers is highly variable. Gary Roberts' group has done a lot of testing on that sort of thing and has some good recommendations if you're interested in doing the search. I stick with GDHP's for my personal handgun carry ammo because it is consistently good through barriers in all the calibers I carry. Rifles is a whole 'nother story.

Good video and discussion.

One question I would have is that for years the .357mag 125gr load doing 1400+ fps was called the king of stoppers, that it was much better than anything else in the real world. Now we don't hear as much about it. Was "king of stoppers" hype, or has new information come to light?

Yeah, I'm confused...at 7:52, he says that a .44 Magnum produces a more significant wound, but not enough to matter." Well, then, what makes it a more significant wound? Later, at 9:28, we're told the goal is "the perfect 14"-16" inches of penetration and getting the projectile as big as we can." Isn't the .45 the biggest projectile if it expands at proportionately the same rate as smaller calibers? But caliber arguments are dumb? F me!

If you ask me it sounds like Federal is sucking up to the FBI because they are a good customer.
Nothing new.
No way am I buying into the bullshit that the 9mm is the same as a 45 acp. 45 has twice the bullet weight. You can't ignore that.
Women shoot the 9mm better than the 45 so magically the laws of Physics have changed.
Little is the same as big. I don't think so.

Ballistic gelatin provides a yardstick to measure the performance of one load against another under controlled laboratory conditions. There are similarities between ballistic gel and living tissue but they end with the skin, fur, bones and various densities of organs and tissue that comprise mammals, not to mention the angle at which any of these may be struck.

It stands to reason that a government agency which puts forth a set of protocols, for measuring ammunition performance, would also set performance standards reflecting what they expect contract submissions to achieve. Federal contracts are lucrative and ammunition manufacturers will bust their humps to land them. They also realize that generally, being more or less compliant with those standards will sell a lot of ammo to people who base their selections on what reviews well in the firearms press, youtube and the internet. Now I don't begrudge anyone the freedom to report their findings; or anyone else their choices based on that reporting. In truth, I doubt any of it matters more than what you had for breakfast.

A man center-punched with 9mm ball, a 38 RNL, or a 45 ACP/ Long Colt is going to react exactly the same today as he did 100 years ago. And as with shooting game, there will always be outliers.



The important components to surviving any armed confrontation are the ability to recognize survival means destroying your adversary; the ability to irrevocably commit to destroying him or it by any means at your disposal; and the wherewithal to accomplish that end with fury and ruthlessness, to deprive them of the opportunity to kill or seriously injure you first. Weapons are of course necessary to win, but they occupy a distant second place to your willingness to use them.

I have witnessed one demonstration of the FBI protocol tests with my own eyes, and ammo manufacturers have figured out a way to stay within the 12-18 inch penetration mark in ballistic gelatin across 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP calibers in six different media: bare gelatin, heavily clothed gelatin, and lightly clothed gelatin placed behind 4 different barriers, namely, wallboard, plywood, steel and windshield glass. Of course, all of the barriers and the manner in which they are set up have their own parameters, so there is no way to cover every possibility. Anyway, it is rather impressive. Bear in mind that the 12-18 inch requirement still has 6 inches of wiggle room factored into it, which is pretty significant from a percentage standpoint.

I'm mostly concerned with how a bullet performs when I center punch a mans chest at 5 feet distance in a dimly lit parking garage. The only barrier I'm likely going to need to penetrate is a heavy coat. I guess I just live a boring existence.

Good and even a heavy bullet in a .45 Colt slower will kill anything on earth. It is not velocity but where energy is applied and too fast does not mean deader. The fact is I have revolvers that shoot too fast like the 45-70 BFR and it will lose deer because 1630 FPS makes it a stick hole. Then I found a WFN does not work better then a WLN. There is a pressure wave from the meplat that will move tissue out of the way of the bullet and will collapse back so the big meplat theory is not true. Slow the big meplat and it will work better.

If you have penetration,you can break skeletons and in a handgun,the chambering/projectile is largely moot,assuming a shred of sense. Break shoulders on tablefare,shoot schit trying to chew on you in the melon...there ain't much to it.

Hint...............

The flipside to that is the handful of times I've been involved in with security contractors (essentially clearing buildings) they opt for max penetration - bad guys hide behind stuff.

Patrick, you have to take that "king of the manstoppers" title in the context it was made... the 60's and 70's. At that time, 90% of American patrol officers carried 158 gr roundnose lead bullets in their 6-shot revolvers. Which, if you recall, was not a terribly effective bullet at baseline. It was upgraded some to the so-called Treasury Load (158 gr SWCHP at +P velocity), which was a substantial improvement. The 357 Magnum came into more widespread LE use in the late 60's, and a high-velocity (1250+ fps) 125 gr bullet was the "standard". I know guys who carried that load, and they said it was truly impressive to fire those off at night (when most OIS's happen). I have some old Super Vel loads from that era, and have fired them at night for a photo op, and they are amazing... flame shoots 10 feet from the muzzle, and the side blast from the cylinder-barrel gap looks like a giant orange butterfly 5 feet across. And they were LOUD. None of this low-flash, low-blast nonsense!

In any case, one of my old copper buddies tells me they would shoot at perps with these loads at night and the bad guys would often surrender just based on the blast, flame, and roar of the 357 loads.

But ballistically speaking, did they perform any better than current LE/defense rounds? Not really. I've shot ballistic vests with them, and I've shot gelatin with them, and all the metrics are within the FBI protocol. So nothing magical.

Snake, when I lived and worked up in Wisco I did an informal study of bad guys shot by police in our area in the cold months. It wasn't uncommon for the local felons to wear 4-5 layers while out and about committing their felonies. More or less typical was a leather jacket or vest and maybe a polyester-fill insulated jacket, denim/canvas shirt, cotton hoodie, and a couple of t-shirts. This much clothing exceeds the FBI test protocol by a helluva margin. Top that off with 3-4" of chest blubber on your typical Wisconsin fat f u c k e r/biker and you have a significant penetration challenge.

The most common rounds carried by the po-po in Wisco at that time were the Federal HST 40 S&W 180 gr load, or the 40 S&W Speer Gold Dot Hollow Point 180 gr load. Both rounds are pretty hot as I recall. These rounds performed superbly over and over again, through clothing, interior doors, auto side window glass, windshield glass, and auto sheet metal doors.

This is the same ammo that you can buy to load in your personal defense guns, in whatever caliber you prefer, and it will work just as well for you. To my mind this is what the ammo companies should be using as a selling point, sort of the way Mercedes-Benz and Ford use their auto racing successes to sell more of their cars to us urban commuters.

Depends on how you define "work better", but in the main I agree with you. My standard load for my 45 Colt revolvers is a nominal 265 gr WFN bullet at about 950 fps. Cast of Lyman No. 2 alloy it's about 258 grains actual weight. It is deadly on deer and on hogs.

True.

If you look at Dr. Gary Roberts' recommendations for 5.56 carbine loads, you'll note that he lists standard patrol/antipersonnel loads separately from SWAT/antivehicle loads. The latter have greater barrier penetration capabilities. You really can't go wrong with the Nosler Partition 60 gr bullet, for example, at relatively low cost. Any of the bonded bullets from any of the manufacturers out there will do equally well. Federal TRU 62 gr is an excellent choice in this category as well. Black Hills used to make a Nosler Partition LE load that was superb, and I stocked up on it at the time fearing that it would vanish down the road, and it did.

This is the same principle identified by officers chasing down bank robbers in the 1930's, which led to development of "heavy" revolvers such as the S&W 38/44, which were loaded with linotype bullets that would zip through the relatively thick automobile sheet metal of the day like a hot knife through butter.

The flip side of the advantages of this penetration capability is that downrange collateral damage can be fierce with the wrong bullet. So that 1938 .38 caliber linotype bullet might be great for perforating the door of a gangster's Ford V8, but it would just keep on keepin' on through the other side door, and through the little old lady bystander on the sidewalk. This police PR disaster ain't as likely with good loads from Federal/Speer/ATK or Winchester-Western, Black Hills, Barnes, and Hornady... as the OP video points out, these makers have made the effort to optimize performance, and in the case of patrol rifle loads, they've developed loads that will defeat intermediate barriers but still perform to FBI standards in gelatin (no more than 18" of penetration).

Well, I think you're selling both the FBI and the Federal/Speer/ATK guys short, but that's your business.

The cool thing about America is you have the freedom to buy and carry 45 ACP loads for your personal carry, or to buy 9mm for your personal carry, and nobody can tell you it's prohibited. And you will be well-served by either one, no matter what you believe or don't believe. So carry on and more power to you, amigo.

Actually, the classic .38 Special loading performed great when the target wasn't either hopped up on drugs or fanaticism (like the Moro Tribesmen). Anyone not in that category generally dropped to a solid hit even from lead round nose.

TRH, in my view the standard pressure LRN load wasn't as bad as many folks thought it was, but it was still pretty weak compared to what came after. Jim Cirillo wrote about this (and his response to it as a NYPD guy), among other credible sources.

38 Special wasn’t used on the Moro Tribesmen, that was the 38 S&W not the same round

..funny, the criminals in Texas must be tougher or something...

When I worked for Dallas PD I used to try and talk with everyone who I could who had been in a gun fight.... There were several dozen over the years because at the time we averaged 80+- gunfights a year and had a 80+% hit rate....unlike 29% average for the rest of the country.

As to .38s, I talked with 9 officers who were involved in 10 shooting incidents either directly against subjects or failed to penetrate cover that should have been penetrated. 8 of the 9 changed calibers after the shooting. Only one, a Sargent who dropped a murder suspect with one shot, had nothing but praise for his gun. Most were the 158 +P FBI load. One was a Federal Nyclad (127 gr.?).

On the other hand NOT ONE of the other officers I spoke with who shot someone with 9mm to .45 Colt ever even changed their load.

..no love or trust in .38s here....nor for the 9mm/147 SubSonic...great way to make a good gun into a 15 round .38...

Bob

The old 9mm 147 gr. subsonic did suck by most accounts. The NEW 147 gr. 9mm loads seem to be excellent performing loads in actual shootings. Bullet design has come a long way since the late 80's and early 90's.

...well if that is the case then the ammo companies should be able to bump the diameter up .002, duplicate the velocity in a 4" revolver barrel and we'll have a reliable .38..

When we got rid of the 45 and went to the 357 Sig. Auto Glass was one of the driving forces behind that change. Along with automotive sheet metal and all the fun stuff there in. Initially there were some serious questions about over penetration. In a situation like a courtroom or residence. That was pretty well put to rest after researching the reasons the Federal Air Marshals chose the Sig. Most of us shot the Sig better than the 45 too. Though alot of that was probably platform. Even as big as my hand are I was never able to get a "great" grip on our Glock 21s

You're probably thinking of the same old cop I am - who really liked having a huge muzzle blast

Take it one further: it wasn't the 174 or 200 gr, Webley load either. May have been some 160 gr, roundnose U.S. standard that comes to mind.

The 38 S&W (38/380 Webley) also carried a larger diameter bullet than the 38 Special, which also had pretty decent street cred with 200gr. bullets....

I personally know of one officer who shot in anger more than once that chose 148 38 Special wadcutters over the "standard" issue 125 JHP 357's in his 19.

38's, even when loaded with lead back when, would have been interesting if the Keith shapes had been employed.

is not the video about exactly what Formidalousis said, before the big gun guys shouted him down and probably out of here? In essence most all commonly used handgun wounds are about the same within 10-15% in human tissue. Yes I know someone will be along to say a 454 is more than a 380 but is it really in a defense situation against another human adversary? Probably makes a bigger hole clean thru the target, while a good 380 probably makes a smaller hole clean thru the target. I like the hard cast loads as well but at any reasonable handgun velocity the video pretty much says if it has enough velocity to shoot into the vitals it does not matter the exact caliber. All the anecdotal stories in the world are pretty much just anecdotal compared to actual controlled testing . There is really no good reason to believe a 40SW or 45ACP is more "deadly" than a 9mm or 380 or in many cases a 22LR based on this testing. If you shoot a glock 42 well, and a 1911 with suckness, then you have your answer. All handgun calibers are more alike than they are different.

As stated in the video larger caliber bullets leave larger wound cavities, but the increase is not enough to sacrifice shooter speed and accuracy. I can gain a large degree of control over that by choosing heavier or lighter pistols in corresponding heavier or lighter recoil. I don't have to be forced into a 'everything else the same' concession. A bigger hole is still better.

HawkI... the problem we keep running into in these discussions is folks thinking that there is a material difference between one of the service handgun calibers or another, when there is in fact very little difference. Handguns are handguns, and are pretty pathetic manstoppers compared with rifles and shotguns.

Yes, if the cops in 1968 had suddenly all adopted Keith style SWC ammo, or better yet SWCHP (Treasury Load), it might have held off the ascendancy of the 357 Magnum in the 70's and 80's. But probably not, because cops were only hitting about 20% of the time with their 38's, and probably less with 357's. The problem wasnt' the caliber, or the ammunition. The problem was that cops weren't being trained very well.

Look, I've been following the Caliber Wars for 30+ years, and I've even had a small hand to play in one minor skirmish, at my own Sheriff's Office about a decade ago. The issue is that people are looking for a solution to a problem that keeps being mis-stated. Let's use the FBI post-mortem meetings after the 1986 Miami Gunfight as an example.

There were many problems in the 1986 gunfight, not the least of which was the "flying squad" underestimating the fighting capability of the felons; failing to arm themselves with rifles for what they should have known would be a rifle fight; making macho decisions on taking them down based on that underestimation; and then using bad tactics that ended up getting themselves shot all to hell; and a host of less egregious errors in tactics, training, and preparation that would take an entire series of blog articles to elucidate. But these issues were all swept under the rug, and the outcome of the AAR was to blame the debacle on one problem, and one problem only: Winchester Silver Tip 9mm 115 gr ammunition.

That's right. They blamed the ammunition carried by some (and only some!) of the FBI agents at the gunfight. Which is how we got the myth about the 9mm being an inadequate fight stopper that some members of this 24HCF still believe to be true. Which is how we ended up with the 10mm cartridge, as an "improved" auto pistol caliber, which turned out to be a difficult round to work with for most cops, which resulted in the 40 S&W round becoming the New Standard for police ammunition. And by 2016, 30 years after the Miami Firefight, the FBI announced that "improvements in ammunition" made the 9mm as good as the 40 S&W, and guess what... everybody and their dog is going back to 9mm as the issue sidearm caliber for American law enforcement.

The problem was never the 9mm. It was never the ammo, or the caliber. The fatal wound that eventually killed Michael Platt was NOT from Ed Mireles' 38 caliber bullets, nor his Remington 12 gauge buckshot, but from Jerry Dove's 9mm 115 gr Silvertip bullet that blew out Platt's pulmonary artery and resulted in mortal hemorrhaging inside his chest. This is known beyond doubt. (It has been reviewed by forensic medicine specialists ad nauseum. I have spent literally hundreds of hours reviewing the work of the docs ahead of me, and explaining to the docs and police trainers I work with.)

I've mentioned Dr. Gary Roberts' group's database before, which is based on every OIS in California over the past couple-three decades. Their data show overwhelmingly that any round that meets the FBI ballistic qualification criteria performs about as well as any other round in that group. From 9mm/38 Special up to 45 ACP, they all work about the same in general.

Here's the deal: if you put your handgun bullets into the cardiovascular bundle in the center of a man's chest, he will bleed out very quickly and collapse from lack of blood flow to the brain; if you put your handgun bullets into the core of the CNS (the brainstem) he will cease all purposeful movement immediately. If you shoot him ANYWHERE else, he may keep fighting you, even though his wounds may be mortal. PERIOD. This is established fact. Settled science, if you will.

Anything that detracts from this message is bullschitt. Waste of time and effort. If your bullets are too anemic to penetrate through the skull and soft tissues to destroy the base of the brain from any angle, or the cardiovascular bundle from any angle, your bullets are no good, a waste of time and effort, and may get you killed. If your gun recoils so viciously that you can't place your shots into these small anatomic targets from any angle with accuracy, then your gun & ammo are no good, a waste of time and effort, and may get you killed. Virtually all of the mainstream defense ammunition available on the market today is designed to meet the FBI criteria, which means you don't really have to worry if your ammo is good enough... if you carry a service caliber handgun, and you load it with commercial ammunition, it will get the job done. The question is whether YOU can get the job done.

The handgun caliber or bullet you use in this day and age is far less important than most people realize. Being able to place those shots into a very small anatomic area with speed and precision under stress is far more important. Instead of planning how you're going to be able to pay for your next new Wundergun, you should be planning on finding the money to take some good training in handgun combatives.

I agree with everything you say, except your inclusion of the 380. It's a marginal round at best. Carry it if you like, it's your funeral. The FBI's ballistic gel testing show the 380 to be anywhere from pizz-poor to barely adequate, and the data from real world shootings show that 380's do not perform to the same standard as the Service Calibers.

Yeah - does the .380 make a clean hole through any thing that walks? I'm not seeing that. I used to shoot a .380 some years ago, and the underwhelming still lingers.

FM, I've done some rigorous testing of 380 ammo, and Johann from the OP video has done a LOT more than I have, and neither of us own a 380 nor will we allow anyone in our families to own or carry 380's. For what that's worth.

Yep. Sold mine, as well. The micro nines made them kind of irrelevant anyway.

When I was in high school anyone interested in police work was advised to join the Marines, and then get hired. Then they changed the rules and required a college degree.
Now they want women and minorities.
I was president of a gun club for a few years and we allowed the local police departments to use our range to qualify the cops.
I had the keys so I would let them in
and lock others out.
I enjoyed watching women shooting 12 gauge pumps with buckshot.
I would pickup brass after they left. They had 9mm
40S&W and 45 acp.
They would drive the cars onto the range after dark
and shoot with all the lights flashing.
Some cops shoot better than others.
There are lots of variables in shooting.
I am glad that I don't have to do it.

Doc I read another article that put the 380 with several hundred shootings reported with about a 20% difference in effectiveness as compared to the 45ACP. Didn’t Cheyenne test the 380 just recently?

I’ve git some ocean front property in Arizona you may be interested in.

What might you have to get through on your way to that promised land of the cardiovascular bundle? Arm bones, walls, car doors, black leather great coats?

My neighbor is an air marshal and was issued a .357 Sig. He has been over to shoot and to even see him on a plane load of people is scary. Now I don't know if it is him or the gun is just not accurate but I hear him shooting up behind me all the time.
I have no axe to grind with the .380 and I just shoot them for fun since any situation serious enough will make use of one of my 1911's. I have a Dan Wesson Patriot and a Colt series 80.
Now the .38 S&W is below my slingshot. I had one in to work on long, long ago. Got it fixed and wanted to test the action. I lived in Cleveland so the best place to shoot was in my old mans car for noise. I stacked a pile of 2X4's on the back floor and shot into them from the front seat. Every single bullet only penetrated half it's depth in the first 2X4.
Now the .45 Colt with a heavy WLN at 1160 FPS penetrated a 16" box elder tree and cut a 1" grape vine in half after and I never found the bullet in the ground.
The old west and Sam Colts SAA might have been the best combination ever. The bad thing was the bad guys also carried them.
Shooting at soaked phone books and paper had the larger calibers like the .475 go 37" while an XTP made only 12". I actually found bullets that penetrated 16" of seasoned oak after going through the paper.
The .44 mag with a 240 XTP made 11" but a 265 RD made 33". A 330 gr went 34" Penetration is sure not lacking with a handgun unless bullets are fast expanding or light.
Long ago shooting a Keith bullet through fenders of a junk car showed it would break into the engine. Some made it to the piston.
I started deer hunting with the .44 and 240 XTP's and recovered all the bullets and deer ran too far with no blood trails. I changed to the WLN LBT and deer went down fast and I never recovered a cast bullet even shot from the chin to tail.

statistically despite your offer of a land sale in Arizona, the 380 is within about 20% of the 45ACP

Now I need to get a 5.7, geez

the Terrorist Nidal Hassan used one to deadly effect at Ft. Hood.

Within 20% of what?

Did I read that wrong or were you actually shooting a revolver inside your dad’s car? If you were that may be the funniest thing I’ve ever read.

if you get shot in the chest with a 380 and get shot in exactly the same place with a 45ACP you are IIRC about 20% more likely to stop what your doing with the 45ACP. Someone posted the study not too long ago on these forums, now we have this video from one of the biggest manufacturers of ammunition in the world saying about the same thing. It's been difficult for me as well to come to grips with the concept as well that a 240 grain soft point 44 magnum at 1300 FPS is just not that much more effective than a 90 grain 380 at 1000 FPS if they hit the exact same spot on a human target under identical conditions. A 44 or 475 has the momentum to shoot thru a buffalo but for self defense 20 inches of penetration is more than enough and below 2300 or so FPS they ain't that much different.

Yeah I did, could not shoot it anywhere else and the car muffled the little gun. It is so weak I think a 1X2 would have stopped it. The car was junk anyway, My dad ruined cars real fast. I don't think he ever got 20,000 miles from anything.
First thing he did was toss the air cleaner so it could breath and it sure did, every speck of dust, then he poured aluminum paint into the oil and gas to seal it up.
Maybe the blue clay would be better!

Actually I think I will get a TCM 9R barrel for my G17 and sell everything else.

⁰
If you believe that BS then hunt deer with a 380 and test the 20% theory.

your arguing apples and oranges. You can shoot deeper into a bigger animal with a the 300 grain 44 magnum but average self defense guns would only have to penetrate some cloth and about 20 inches, your pokin a hole .06 inch difference from 380 to 44 mag. For deer a 22 LR solid makes a hole thru the lungs in and out will result in expiration as well as a 380 FMJ or a 44 magnum. I hunt deer with a 90 grain .25, kills the s-hit out of them, but that's apples and oranges too.

This '20% Theory' says more about human behavior than it does about defense load effectiveness. Most people understand if they catch any bullet in the body between their knees and nose, they will eventually die without emergency.medical attention. This rearranges their priorities toward self-preservation and away from being a predatory azzhole.

Of course there are dead-enders, drug & alcohol anesthetized idiots, determined violent criminals and plain crazy mean bastards.There are also 100+ pound drug-house attack dogs and other two and four legged murder machines, often in multiples. You are going to have to rip their cardiovascular, nervous and skeletal systems apart to stop them. Deer and hogs, while not generally dangerous, have no idea what being shot means and they are going to react to the physical effect, as opposed to the psychological effect of being shot. JWP's statement is correct. Shoot some game and you'll soon learn the value of mastering a handgun with power to spare.

Exactly right.

You are spot on in all regards.

And then there's Jerod Reston, I watched his video again last night and while he took a 230 gr 45 slug in the mouth, leg, butt, thigh, elbow, 2 or 3 in his bulletproof vest, he shot back with 180 grain Winchester HP's from his 40 cal Glock. He hit his assailant multiple times including several A zone hits and only stopped the fight by grabbing the guy and shooting him point blank in the head. The entire shooting lasted 35 seconds.

He now carries a 9mm

Deer aren't large animals and don't require bullets any different from self defense loads. In fact a 200 pound deer is a big deer. So no I'm not comparing apples to oranges. You on the other hand threw in a rifle round. A 380 isn't in the same ball park as a properly loaded +P in 45 ACP.

9mm properly loaded is adequate, 380 is marginal at best.

And for the record, I watched a buddy shoot an aluminum road sign with a 380 and it failed to penetrate. This was with Remington golden Saber bullets. I will never own a 380.

I've shot and seen enough 380's shot that I agree 100% with you

They are not saying the same thing. I think that you are extrapolating too much. The video is saying that you can manufacture ammo in 3 calibers to meet the same performance criteria and they will all perform about the same against humans regardless of caliber. The .380 definitely is not one of those. It cannot meet all of the criteria, and many loads cannot even meet the easiest two. The Ellifritz study is a review of case reports and doesn’t really contradict this. It is not limited to certain types of ammo, velocities or calibers. It’s just a wide-open review of second-hand case reports. The variables are unlimited. I wouldn’t draw a percentage analysis out of the data and conclude that it’s not enough to make a difference.

Well,

If I correctly remember the thread on that study, I'm not sure he's reading the statistics correctly.

As an example. If the 45% stops 40% of bad guys with one shot, and the .380 stops 20% with one shot, the .380's "within 20%" but the 45 actually stops 100% more bad guys with one shot.

My pard whom the .gov put in harms way many times during his 30 plus years with the "agency" was shot at alot. Hit many times in the vest by a large assortment of projectiles and 5 times in flesh and bone. Four hits from 9mm hard ball did not put him out of the fight. The 5th hit came from a .380 hollow point. That one took out 13 inches of his colon and damn near killed him. However he does not carry a .380 into a fight. He also does not own or carry a 9mm any longer. His comment is that it aint the gun or the caliber that you carry into the fight but the fight you carry into the gun fight. During his service to the agency he was issued a BHP and he came out alive from many fights but he has little love for the 9mm although he used it effectively. In later years doing security work he carried many other guns and calibers but never another 9mm. His choice for his reasons and I cant say he is wrong.

If it recoils "big" then its got to be more powerful and it is producing more momentum but until its going 2300 FPS there aint that much difference in the wounding capability. A 380 FMJ into the center of your chest is going to kill you just as dead as a 45ACP Golden Whizzum bullet in exactly the same spot. You punch a hole in the heart or nick the spine with either and its all over. he only argument we could have is "how fast will one or the other caliber cause you to bleed out". Without 2300 FPS your wound cavity is not that much different between .38 and .45. This has been a great thread and the Lehigh bullets are next on my list of to try things. Again we are not shooting thru 5 foot of buffalo, all we have to do is make a hole thru a relatively soft animal.

FYI, I have some .380 factory loaded Lehigh Xtreme Penetrators arriving Monday, so I can chronograph them and compare them to the handloads that I rolled using Lehigh load data. I hope to be shooting some more mixed media tests in the next couple of weeks.

I am going to buy the Underwood Lehigh 380’s. Your using a G42 to test them? I am going to use a P380. Did you see the Underwood 115 grain extreme penetrator 10mm at 1700 FPS!! Makes you wonder.

It’s stunning how many people are shot graveyard dead by gun/load choices that might not pass these tests. 😜

yes a 22 LR will kill the piss out of you.

Look at all the gang shooting in Chicago. Lots of cheap hardball used there, an many more are wounded than killed. Bullet choice matter, but if enough inner city youths shoot each other with hard ball, some will still die.

Days later.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner! The FBI specced ammo that would penetrate 12-18", and that is what they got. From 10 feet. Circular reasoning to now say, "Well, there's no difference between any of these cartridges." There may not be any difference between those particular loads, but I don't buy that a 115 grain bullet always = a 124 grain bullet always = a 165 grain bullet always =180 grain bullet always =230 grain bullet.

Makes me wonder if "personal defense" loads are actually watered down from a cartridge's true potential so they don't go past 18".

The FBI specced out ammunition for their needs. They apparently train to get a lot closer to their bad guys than I do and work with a lot of people in the area. I typically work alone on Indian reservations and am not too worried about overpenetation, but am concerned about being ambushed or prevented from egressing on a muddy or snow-drifted, dirt road. My agency won't allow rifles, which would be my first choice in this scenario. So I prefer the heaviest bullets that are issued at the fastest speeds. Our 165 gr .40 ammo goes at about the same velocity as a 124 gr 9mm, (in general, or at least in the brands my agency usually buys) so to me, it's a no-brainer.

As is typical, we qualify from up to 25 yards. How about some ammo tests against Carhartt's and a wool shirt, thermal underwear, etc. at 25-35 yards?

But the technology! We designed a bullet that makes a 9mm = a .44 Mag. The hunting forum is full of stories of wonder bullets not opening up, opening up too much, or otherwise not working as hoped for in the real world. Paul Harrell's videos consistently show that "plain" HP's work as well as, and often better, than what he calls "so-called premium ammo" on his meat tests, but he does not usually shoot thru barriers.

Yes I really like Paul Harrels Meat test.
Whereas Gel test provide a more constant medium to test bullet performance against other bullet performance, I feel like the meat target test provide a more realistic yardstick regarding how bullets perform against human or animal targets.

Any body that believes that the best loads in a 45 is no more effective than the loads in a 9mm are full of BS. I’ve shot way too many head of game with both to buy that crap.

Within seconds in the chest and instantly in the head

JWP no one disputes that you need a lot of momentum to poke a hole through a grizzly bear, but poking a hole through a 250 pound human does not take 300 grains at 1200 FPS. After reading the report of 250 quantified shootings and seeing the ballistic gel info, I am sure a 9mm will perform on humans the same as a 45ACP. The 380 with FMJ is almost as good, but the Lehigh might be a game changer for that caliber as well. The world of bullets is changing, and our understanding/Knowledge is expanding.

How does the 124 grain HST work on Meat?

No where have I suggested needing 300 grains of anything. I’m talking about defensive handguns like 45 ACP and 9mm. I ve shot a lot of game with them. A 45 into the rib cage of a deer pushes the ribs in that is visible to the eye and bone are broken better than with a smaller diameter projectile. Hit a deer in th3 ribs with a 9mm and there is no visible indicator of a hit and sometime the smaller diameter projectile goes through a bone without completely severing the bone.

You jump to conclusions way too much, I’m talking of deer and pigs, not as big as some humans.

Its all good JWP, and Happy Easter to all. He is Risen.

I checked out Liberty Ammo’s site, 10 mm =2400 FPS.

Uh nope
I personally know someone that took a CCI Mini mag Hollow Point from a 6-1/2 barrel Ruger single six at a range of less than 3 inches from a drunk woman who was fugging around with a loaded gun she thought was unloaded.

The bullet struck him 3 inches below his nipple and 2-1/2 left of dead center of his chest.

Guy instantly thought it was a lung shot and walked to his kitchen about 40 feet away and grabbed a couple of plastic sandwich bags and held over the entrance and exit wound to keep the lung from sucking in air and collapsing his lung.

He sat on the couch for about 20 minutes waiting for the ambulance to arrive.

Ended up the bullet did not hit his lung but did hit his kidney,he had one tube going in to pump blood in and a tube sucking blood out of his penis .This after an hour long ambulance ride to the hospital..After a long surgery he was in the hospital for a couple of weeks and pissed blood for about a year.He survived and was not incapacitated by the shot IE could have done anything he wanted to .

Rare occurrence? Maybe

But to state that any shot to the chest is an instant death is not correct.
would identical shot placement with a 9mm or 45 killed him ? who knows as the wider bullet might have caught the heart or Major artery.Maybe not.

And people who say this always bring me down to earth on this subject.

Dude... our thinking on this is so 'yesterday'. We simply must get on board with the Modern 9mm!

http://www.thesixgunjournal.net/the-modern-9mm/

The FBI has been coming up with wonder loads ranging from 9mm-10mm since the agency was formed; since they have come to the conclusion all do the work of a 45 while allowing more rounds, easier hit repeatability, the next logical step is the adoption of a 25 or 32 (30) caliber service round and weapon that will reasonably extend the same logic. Hell, Ive just read here a 22 lr and a 22 Mag needn't expand, since its pointless under 2,300 fps....
Never mind every time the FBI adopts a cartridge it ISN'T a 45 and when the military actually uses a sidearm en masse it goes back to the 45, since those tasked with actually using a handgun and not merely testing them seem to have an imaginary inclination and preference towards it.

Don't take my word for it; 250 quantified shootings and gel tests (that's probably a whole lot more than seen in the Phillippine insurrection, WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam and two sandboxes combined) unarguably have all basis covered.

Don't even bother with what constitutes a hunting handgun; everyone knows they all kill the same, especially those who haven't shot even a rabbit with a 380....

If we ever solved the cartridge debates, what would we talk about?

Chili -- beans or not?

John

Stupidity doesn't get "solved"...though DUMB Fhuqkers greedily align,to "justify" their "findings" and correlate their collective Nothingness.

Hint....................

as a youth my friends dad worked as an anchorman for a local TV station, we hunted with many of the local sheriffs deputies as he know a lot of them. The de rigueur shooting instrument for the African American drinking establishments back in the day was some type of cheap 22 LR, I recall 3 stories of dead men shot with 22 LR's that did not make it to the door of the bar. More recently in my current location a black woman unloaded a ruger mark 1 into a rapist he did not make it out the door either. Everyone continues to say until you get to 2300FPS pistol bullets are all about the same. Had the man in your story been shot by a .380, 9mm or 45ACP how can you say it would have been different? You just don't know until you have 250 shootings to tabulate ....

but thinking about this more why is it some hunters feel like they have to have a magnum of some type to kill a 100 pound WT Deer? Some can do just as well with a 223 and the right bullets as another cannot do with a 300WM.

No pistol bullets are not about the same. I have no idea where you came up wth the 2300 FPS

There is a poster here that was shot a5 point blank range in the chest wit a Charte4 arms 6” barrel by a 38 Special and the bullet didn’t penetrate through his breast bone.

You jump to too many conclusion with what appears to be little experience.

Shoot the head and they all work!!!

I am sure there are stories of failures and successes in every chambering.

Jimmy keeps posting all handgun bullets are the same and that is total BS, there are bullets for the 38 Special that would have went through his breat bone and through his chest. Bullets are not all the same fir handguns and neither are the wound channels.

So bullets matter more than headstamps?

They are tied together for sure and certain.

It's never been difficult to cypher,who shoots...and who don't.

Hint..................

I agree 100% but John you are not the first to get banned without posting, I AM.

As far as I am concerned, that is more dangerous than working the meanest streets in urban America! No air support, no 50 friends to drop everything and start screaming your way in an instant, and no fully-staffed major trauma center a few minutes away. Oh, and you may be going up against a guy with a scoped elk rifle who knows how to use it and doesn't care about overpenetration. People who do what you do have my utmost respect. Stay safe!



I started going DIY on that kind of stuff! I use water jugs but I am thinking about springing for some ClearBallistics gel.

A regular poster on Glock Talk who uses +P Underwoods and similar handloads in his Glock 42 was getting frame battering when he tried those in a Kahr P380. You should be able to Google it.

Yeah, me too. Deer and humans are close but pain does not have the same affect on deer and are shot to take both lungs with a second hole to bleed a blood trail. I will not even use the 1911 for deer no matter the bullet. Even when you consider the 230 gr or more bullet compared to a 90 gr .380. Weight equals penetration so bullets are made to expand faster for people shooting and they stop before vitals.
A .22 is mentioned so much and it can kill just like any gun but hunting PA with archery I killed many, many deer that when cutting I found lumps on the chest walls. Looked like cancer so I cut to drop out a .22 bullet that had gone through both lungs. I also killed 4 deer with 6" of arrow inside with broadheads that had healed up. I developed a fear to reach inside deer.
Now the .223, Friends daughter used one, shot a nice doe and it ran with no blood trail. Whitworth was with us and we searched with no luck. An hour later I went to my stand and found her deer, almost 300 yards from where hit. I gutted and found the bullet made 6" only, no bone. I convinced him to get her a 30-30 and she loves it and has taken a lot of bucks with it.
If you can't kill a deer with a gun cleanly I would not shoot a man with it either. You will not get 20" of penetration in a human with a .380, forget it.
.44 mag can be too much with penetration too but watching shooting shows had a guy hang water filled balloons on a rack and he caught the bullet in no. 5 with a factory load, NOT a hunting bullet. I have pictures but every thing I try to post is too large.

I give a lot of weight to the experience of hunters, regarding bullet performance. That's some valuable data.

The first deer I ever shot with a 44 mag, I was less than impressed. I was following up a wounded deer, the Ruger was loaded with some remanufactured 240 grain Remington hps. A total lack of penetration.

The next deer I shot, I used hard cast bullets. A total different outcome.

Thanks, I just wanted to acknowledge your reply, but don’t want to sound like a drama queen. I mainly only investigate embezzlement and contractor fraud in Indian Country, for which my agency doesn’t believe rifles are necessary, but I think it’s only a matter of time before I stumble onto a meth lab out in the boonies and the rodeo will be on.

Hornady wrote in one of their test reports that they found no statistical difference in shooting from 10 feet or 25 yards. I don’t know, I wasn’t there, but it doesn’t seem logical to me. I guess that, like you said, I need to spend the time and whatever ballistics gel costs to convince myself that a good 9mm load does roughly the same as the .40, especially in winter conditions.

My agency is one of many now considering changing to 9mm, and actually, sort of asked me for my opinion, which I’m sure was thoroughly considered and carefully reviewed.

Connect percentages,trump miss percentages and reduced recoil is THE route.

Hint...............

Neither the ability to kill a deer cleanly nor 20 inches of penetration in a human factor into my thought process when it comes to self-defense. I don't need either of these characteristics to stop a human. Even FBI spec ammo isn't designed to meet both of those criteria, and it is doing fine every day.

FBI agents shot and killed 70 individuals between 1993 & 2012 (only stats I could find) which is 19 years, so roughly 3.7 a year, so one every 3 months and a few days.

How's that define their ammo choice doing fine "every day".

Not talking about the FBI. I am talking about all of the police agencies throughout the country who use ammo manufactured to meet the FBI specifications.

The some really ingnorant thangs being posted in this thread, however I do want to correct a myth that is commonly repeated...


Every single military/Fed unit/organization that has a choice, has realistic and consistent high level training, and actually kills people with handguns on the regular have choosen 9mm. EVERY SINGLE ONE. When a couple of those units did use 45’s, it had a lot less to do with the round, and much more to do with the platform- (custom 1911’s). The military units that actually kill people with pistols are very happy with modern 9mm... Just like the FBI. Because when seen in large numbers there just isn’t a noticeable difference between 9mm/40/45 in people.



As for the FBI developing new loads/bullets all the time... well I would hope so? Technology changes.




All that aside, the military units that actually do the killing with pistols have validated and use the FBI’s criteria for a reason.

The 45ACP in any modern form, the 40 SW in any modern form, and the 9mm in any modern form looks like they produce almost exactly the same result in human tissue. Normal CCW Pistols are just not that powerful. The .380 is almost as good as the others and has enhanced effectiveness because many people can shoot it better than the hevier recoiling 40 or 45 ACP. You 45ACP advocates find us someone to interview that has taken 2-3 FMJ .38 Cal rounds from a glock 42 into their sternum. Put a Ruger LCR 22LR into grandma's hands and break into her house, if she hits you anywhere above the belt near the center your not going to be hanging around with your homey's to steal her social security money.

...really...apparently you have no clue how guns and ammo are chosen....and if that is the case why since the Army standardized on the 9mm that my friend's son, who just got promoted to a Major in SF, is still carrying the same Glock 22 in .40 S&W he was issued when he went into SF about 6 years ago... Funny that the guys who really do use a handgun in battle don't choose the 9mm...

They may all kill but they don't all kill the same...

Bob

Frequently, forensic pathologists cannot distinguish the wound track caused by a hollow point bullet (large temporary cavity) from that caused by a solid bullet (very small temporary cavity). There may be no physical difference in the wounds. If there is no fragmentation, remote damage due to temporary cavitation may be minor even with high velocity rifle projectiles.19 Even those who have espoused the significance of temporary cavity agree that it is not a factor in handgun wounds:

Physiologically, a determined adversary can be stopped reliably and immediately only by a shot that disrupts the brain or upper spinal cord. Failing a hit to the central nervous system, massive bleeding from holes in the heart or major blood vessels of the torso causing circulatory collapse is the only other way to force incapacitation upon an adversary, and this takes time. For example, there is sufficient oxygen within the brain to support full, voluntary action for 10-15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed.28

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed."43

Can someone tell me how a .093 smaller diameter bullet that penetrates 20 inches of denim covered ballistic gelatin is worse than a .093 diameter bigger bullet that penetrates about the same?

Handgun Caliber Effectiveness

anyone with the ability to use google can find this.

https://www.scribd.com/document/252518687/Handgun-Wounding-Factors-and-Effectiveness

Thanks for the input, Bob.

Form,
Did you tell them they make 1911 9mm's?

What is this "seen in large numbers"? WWI-WWII type numbers, or most everyone uses a 9mm today type numbers?

On a limited scale, just using 9mm/38 and comparing them to 40 calibers or larger, deer sized critters seem to notice the bigger stuff and even a blind man can figure that out, especially with solids. A good 22 to the head is plenty; why not 22's? 32's?
The plain fact is that, over time, a good deal of sidearm "investigating" has been done by the FBI and (other the 10mm), has continuously chosen (virtually) the same cartridge with different bullets over and over again and some find it a bit silly they've made the same declarations in the past.

It's pretty simple, its called damage.

Would you pick a .224 bullet that stays .224 caliber, with a nice pointy meplat, or would you rather that bullet expand to .32 caliber, maybe even give up some of that penetration?

This is how smaller bullets do the work of larger ones, mechanically. In solid form, everything else relies on displacement.

I’m extremely interested to know how many game animals you’ve taken with the aforementioned defensive calibers? I am also extremely interested in how many gun fights you’ve been involved in with the aforementioned defensive calibers.

Gotta hand it to you guys, I would have bet good money that this has been hashed over so many times it would be impossible to get a good vitriolic epic thread going. You can always count on the'Fire.

Hawk1 your just joshing us! No one can be believe that a 0.09 inch difference makes a huge difference! Why most everyone understands that penetration in key and a few hundredth of inches do not. NO one can be that silly.

Yeah Form,
Cause if you haven't killed a truck load of critters with a 9mm, or killed at least 5 men (one with each common SD caliber) JWP475 ain't gonna believe you, and I know that will ruin your day.

Why can’t we all just get along?

So your telling me you hunt with a 223 and don't care one ire about expansion, because it doesn't do anything. That's what I keep hearing from you and that's what is fallacious on your part.

I also keep hearing from your sources (and you) there isn't any difference in bullet diameter. If that's the case, why would any agency just not adopt .251's or 32's, since they have so much conclusive evidence they all pretty much do the same thing.

Certainly recoil would lessen, capacity would go up and everything you're chirping about wouldn't have any argument to the contrary, but apparently even the FBI draws the line at 35.....for unknown reasons.

Five...four...three...two...one...

Of course!

The theory has come full circle....I've been so silly all this time.
I'd bet a sugar cookie this miracle concept also has fully tested ninjitsu bullet to go along with the "package"...didnt see that coming, no sir....

I know what I'm picking to cap a deer right up the spout next year....and the FBI figured it all out. Hell, Kel-tec of all companies have (apparently) solved every 22 Mag contraption issue as well, sheesh!
Those bullets good for rear quartering shots at 75 yards?

Son, I hunt with both 223 and 25 caliber, they are going over 3000 FPS, you keep forgetting velocity in your thinking.

FMJ or expanding, junior?

Bullets respond to velocity, in what they are designed to do and what they are made of. You can make them go splat at 1800 or less, with the same length, weight, yada.

Bronze ain't lead and 5 bhn ain't 30....

Shooting Critters,resolves all.

Hint..................

All questions, confusions, predicaments, musings and such and such as has now been settled. No more needs to be said.


Clue.....................

Son, your entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. You need to try an be a little more mature. Just because you feel strongly about something doesn’t make it right.

This cuts both ways, Jimmy.

There is no major difference between 45ACP, 40SW and 9MM. Its not me saying it, it’s everybody saying it that tests bullets and calibers.

"Forensic pathologists".....they deal with DEAD BODIES...they don't see the guys that recover...they don't ask the Shooter what the Shootee did when he was hit...all they see is wound tracks and damage to DEAD BODIES. For all they know the Dead Shootee killed five more people but yet had this perfectly expanded bullet right through his heard...



"Physiologically, a determined adversary can be stopped reliably and immediately only by a shot that disrupts the brain or upper spinal cord. Failing a hit to the central nervous system, massive bleeding from holes in the heart or major blood vessels of the torso causing circulatory collapse is the only other way to force incapacitation upon an adversary, and this takes time. For example, there is sufficient oxygen within the brain to support full, voluntary action for 10-15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed."

Apparently you have not talked to very many people who have been in gunfights..the winners that is... Funny but a lot of the Shooters I have spoken with DID NOT GET A CNS HIT and yet the guy went right down.... The oldest guy in my academy class shot a guy who had just tried to shoot him...hit the guy with a .357 125 JHP right between the navel and the nutz and "Bob the guy went down so fast my second round went over his head"...and the guy lived to stand trial... No CNS hit...no majot blood loss before kissing the pavement involuntarily.. The FPs never saw him so the round was never judged...

Killing someone is NOT the object of a defensive shooting....stopping the behavior IMMEDIATELY is the object.

LabRats are the last people you should be listening to when it comes to gun fighting....all they see is what killed the Shootee...not what happened before he died....

Bob

My judgements are from my own experiences, largely from bullets I have made myself, used on animals I've shot myself.

I am pretty confident I can build a handgun bullet that expands to a lower impact velocity and penetrates more than what you can buy or have available to you. I didn't arrive to that conclusion based on heresay or some study with an agenda.

As for maturity, maybe when you grow up you can make your own handgun bullets, pit them against manufactured "perfection", shoot your own animals with them and have your own conclusions, instead of pulling up anecdotes you've obviously have no personal experience or effort in.....

I’m suppressed at you taking the shot at me for asking his experience with the defensive calibers that claims empatheticly perform the same. With the game animals that I have shot with them there is a difference in my experience. If all he is doin* is spouting what he had read or does he have any real world experienc3 to base his emphatic claim on.

Is that a problem for you?

You have no idea just how stupid you are sounding....

digressing from the gel topic for a second.

a while back, someone posted this video, which I watched:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBqVuXmI5h4&has_verified=1


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRq3dyV2ng4



it appeared to me this gent may have possibly been on some type of drug, due to his somewhat erratic behavior.

i read a comment made by the officer involved in the shooting wherein he stated that after the guy took several hits and didn't seem to respond, he wondered if the guy was wearing body armor.

it was mentioned that he may have taken up to about 10 hits.

does anyone know what cartridge the Salt Lake police used here in this specific instance??

typical ignore science, cause I am right thinking.

Poor Logic Hawk, we are not talking about "animals" we are talking about self defense ammunition. Your judgements on shooting through an animal and getting the required penetration are surely spot on as you have experience in that area. OTOH you now want me to make my own bullets and shoot my own animals instead of relying on the thousands of data points compiled by hundreds of studies of actual shootings. You are sounding more like BFR or Gus than your usual self in this discussion. 9mm, 40SW and 45ACP are about the same in performance.

Barnes used to make some brass turned pointed solids...you can take my word for it they don't expand worth a hoot on critters, even at 3,000 fps, but do not admire plate steel.

P.S. I still have some in 224 and 257 caliber...and 30 caliber, if coming to your own conclusions isn't threatening all the science out there.

Humans aren't animals? Who knew....

Who's sounding like Gus?

You Droolers are fhuqking HILARIOUS!

Hint..................

L

Maybe you aren’t smart enough to understand my point.

I understand what you think your point is, which is why you are so foolish.

So you know a guy who knows a guy who carries one pistol because he's the boss and can do whatever he wants.....And that is supposed to prove the general rule wrong?

Give me a break.

One guy...no the whole ARMY SF...these are their DUTY guns issued by UNCLE SAM...

That said they are now having to tradition to 9mm... Were supposed to be getting Glock 19s but now it looks like they will all be getting SIGS... Will find out for sure when I talk to his dad...

Bob

When I retired in late 2013 most of the battalions in SF Groups were issued the Beretta M9 as the standard sidearm. Regular SF (Green Berets) do not get near as much leeway in choice of weapons as popularly thought.

With that said each SF Group also has a battalion that has a mission which allows them access to a wider variety of stuff. Those battalions were using the Glock as a primary sidearm.

BS, if I as well as other can shoot deer or pigs with a 9mm or 45 and see a difference then it is there, so asking one experience is not in your words foolish.

Dont kid yourself into thinking the agencies dont pick the 9mm based on cost and the fact the females and she-males dont shoot nor get their hands around the bigger ones as well. Its not because they unanimously figured the 9 was just as good. Most in law enforcement dont shoot much nor shoot well. A 9mm is the best choice for the vast majority of them and cheapest. Doesnt make it the best nor the one you should carry.

I knew that without all the above drivel. And look at how dumb I am or appear to be.

Clue........... Hint..........

Don't kid yourself into thinking that you'll shoot duty .40 rounds as well as you will duty 9mm rounds.

...and just for your edification...this wasn't "a guy who knows a guy who carries one pistol because he's the boss and can do whatever he wants". ...I've known this person since he was a baby as it's one of my best friend's sons who I helped to teach to shoot.. I also attended his wedding in Nashville four years ago and got to talk to him and many of his men about gun stuff... He's also one of the youngest and lowest ranked officers to ever win the McCarther Leadership Award.

Maybe it's you who should give me a break....

This controversy will never end for sure. But hitting is always ignored so that is one reason for the nine with more shots then ever needed. Same for a .380 even if it stop a man, you can't hit where it counts unless he is cutting you with his knife. Best nine I ever shot was a war relic, P38, even a finely fit Luger did not out shoot it.
Sad to say I have had white house security guys here and the cops from Dulles and the air marshal. The best was a cop from Dulles with a 1911. The rest would miss their foot. Head shots are a joke with most and you might get an ear if lucky. Recoil really affects many and I would stick out a gun to most and none would even try with eyes that went blank. It is why the .41 went away for police, kicks. There are some like steel shooters that can hit and others that never miss but 99.9% of those that carry just put others in danger. Carry your toy that you need to remember to point 3' right and 2' high to hit and tell me your gun is deadly. False sense of security just because you have a gun.
My daughter was out for Easter and she shot my 1911 to print 2" at 25 yards. She learned to shoot young and could break a bottle at 75 yards with a flint lock, was a Marine and won the trophy and out shot all the men too. Show me a 2" group at 25 with any nine or .380 off hand and I will cook a steak for you.
A wound channel in jello does not work. Even if a jerk has breathed in or out will change results according to air in the lungs. You forget air will compress but liquids do not. Jello is close to meat but do you shoot meat? Do you hit the heart or a leg?
Is animal hunting a comparison? It sure is. The difference is a man will feel pain and fear he is going to die so that can end it. A normal man will stop if shot in the foot. If drugged to the moon and feels no pain you will be dead unless you expend the whole mag into him. You will miss most of them anyway.
It also goes to hunting rifles for deer where a guy needs a 30 round magazine. Yeah I hear it here, bang, bang for 5 minutes since they cant hit a thing. Some day a nine magazine can rest on the ground or a Glock will have a 100 round drum.
It comes down to internet shooters that play games and no experience at all.
All of you will rake me and others over the coals and call us names and claim a .22 is a good bear defense because you can shoot him between the eyes at full charge. Not a thought if the bullet will penetrate the skull. NOT! The brown stripe through the woods only means you should have pepper spray to season you.
The only thing I know if a perp was breaking in my door he will bag of muck and to hell with my car since I can buy another. I will never take my .22, .380 or anything less then the .44 mag or the 12 gauge.
I have the AMT 9MM win mag and it is nothing more then a .357 in the end. But it will sit as I take more.
Little gun pushers live in internet games.

You and I both know that when you start shooting for real, with scored hits shot against the clock, the 9mm is easier to shoot well than the .40 S&W. Most people who don't believe that have never actually tested themselves against a known hard standard with both calibers.

I can keep all my shots inside a pie plate at 25 yards, off hand, with my Glock 17, no problem. Two inches? Forget about it.

Silly stuff abounds. I train many new shooters with revolvers and I never, ever start small. I give them the largest according to what I see. A lady might get a .44 mag while a big man will start with my .500. It comes around to "NOT BAD AT ALL" and they start to get real accurate. Now when we drop to the piss ant guns all fear is gone and they shoot so good it makes me proud.
What is a .40? It must break your fingers! I NEVER start with a .22 because every step up has recoil anticipation that is hard to cure.
Get rid of fear first. A lady that shoots a .22 will cringe at a .357. Sorry you are all wrong. When she can shoot a .44 she will shoot anything.
Training has always been wrong. Give police a .38 SP over a smaller gun and then go to the .357 and he flinches so bad he can't hit a thing and then bring in the .41 Mag and the world ends. Most comments about the .45 ACP are recoil related but the cartridge has almost none. It is the heavy slide coming back to the stop. OOPS your hand went up.
You shoot a .223 good but what do you do with a .460? Internet shooters abound without any trigger pulls at all, Youtube makes experts.
Bye the way I shoot for real as does Whitworth and JWP.

But it is OK. I never bash anyone but am bashed over and over. It is how you load, what you load and what the gun can do and nothing personal. You are doing good so I will not say bad. I have never said bad about a single person in my life but only a process that is wrong or dangerous. I might care for safety most and accuracy and results next but to see JWP and me as the same is an honor so thanks to all.
I do not care what is said, experience is what is needed. It is not TV. Yeah a BG drops at a shot on the run and everyone has a full auto. Two 1911's at once to kill every BG. Fantasy world for most gun owners. Now the net with experts that can't hit a barn wall from inside.

I know a guy whom I have known forever that knows a guy who is married to a woman whose brother is married to a girl whose father once said that exact same thing.

Well now that BFR has chimed in I feel completely convinced that the 45ACP as handed down by Lord Cooper far exceeds anything else offered in mere mortal calibers. And yet people are stopped from their dastardly deeds daily with the piss poor 9mm and even the 380! For you guys from Rio Linda just because it recoils more does not make it a more manly gun and poking a hole at 1000 ft per second thru the pump will result in the same outcome be it .35 inches or .45 inches in hole diameter.

How do you guarantee you will put a round through the pump?

It's easy, fire off a cylinder of .460 Magnums first and then reload with the plain old .45's. Those will be like shooting a .22 LR. Two inch groups offhand at 25 yards will be EZ PZ. Shooting at a bad guy is a piece of cake then.

..what "clock"...are we talking gunfighting here or IDPA...

95% of civilian gun fights take place in the 3-5 YARD area...so you are going to tell me that your "average" shooter who can handle a Glock 19 just fine can't put 2-3 rounds into a target just about as fast with a Glock 23...

Are you sure??

To be really effective, we apparently need 45 slugs that break into a couple of 9mm slugs, so our split times would improve and the gunfight stopwatch guy could award us extra points.

Y’all should definitely laugh at an objective standard while quoting debatable statistics in imaginary gunfights.

Has nothing to do with my statement because has nothing but POLICE statistics...

Read Tom Givins book FIGHTING SMARTER....best book on mindset I have ever read...

He has over 60 students in gun fights and everyone with a gun won...the three who lost didn't have a gun on them... Only three of the fights were past 7 yards...

From what I have read the "average" police shooting is now in the area of 14 yards...

You want to tell Tom to his face that his statistics are imaginary...

Go over to YouTube and LiveLeak and study the CIVILIAN gunfights and tell me how far away the Shooters are when the fight starts...

Debatable statistics. Reading is hard.

And “go tell him to his face”? Really? While I’m there we can debate whether my dad could beat up his dad. Good grief.

..just like good Democrat...deflect, deflect, deflect...

Did you just randomly accuse someone of being a democrat AND accuse them of deflecting?

You see the irony, right?

I dam near choked on my Copenhagen there Blue, lol

While my shooting sucks I shoot a tad better than pie plate at 25 yards with a G17 or a p365, coarse the real trick is to pull your pistol and hit a softball at arms length in under second.

What’s objective about this entire thread? Though no handgun bullet reaches a velocity that could possibly produce a wound cavity like at puny 223 traveling at 3000FPS, they continue to insist that .09 inches or less of a diameter difference at roughly the same 1000 FPS provided equal penetration is a huge difference, when objective (not gun writer’s) studies of actual shootings show there is very little difference. In short this is an argument for arguing’s sake.

Show me where anyone said “huge difference” what was posted was there is a difference. There is of course overlap. The reaction of a deer hit with a 45 ACP is visually seen, not so with a 9mm that is definately an advantage in my mind. The 9mm has a higher magazine capacity, is adequate and recoils a bit less.
The claim that the wounds are the same is a bogus claim. You claim a 22LR is adequate.

any yet the ballistic gel and statistics say the "wounds are the same"! In addition a 22LR will kill a lot bigger animal than a 250 pounder if you hit it in the center.

Asking the whole populace of the population on here this question.

If you only had one shot and only one shot and you were faced with a wild eyed loon that said he/she was going to chop your head off with a large cheap machetteand you couldnt out run him and your fisticuff skills were lacking and your stately verbage couldnt defuse the situation and you were faced with shooting him or her (I am equal opportunity) and you had had to choose a 9MM, 40 S&W, 10MM or a 45 Auto with the best ammo available in each which would you WISELY choose?

Keeping in mind only one shot and you couldnt machine gun him or her.

Basically this question is just a rephrase of the time-honored favorite: "What cartridge would you use for a one-shot stop?"


Since ammo capacity is meaningless, given the hypothetical, I'd probably use my 1911 chambered in 9mm. You didn't specify the distance I'd be shooting at, but I tend to shoot that gun the best of the guns I own in the 4 listed choices (I don't own a 10mm). If there were no restrictions on ammo capacity, and I didn't know if/when an attack was coming, I'd stick with my G19.

Plus, when empty, the all-steel, 5" 1911 makes a better club than a plastic gun.

Distance is a distance you would feel threated. Someone standing 100 yards (300 feet) away would not in general be called a threat. Just an ignoramus with a big mouth. Until said ignoramus got close then he/she would be a threat.
One shot. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 or 10 yards. One shot and one shot only

In the center of what?

By your logic someone shooting at you from 100 yards isn't close enough to be a threat. Which is ridiculous

If you could read I said a machette. I never mentioned a gun, firearm or any projectile firing launch platform.
Regardless of how stupid you THINK i am I am smart enough to know that a loon with a gun can be dangerous at 100 yards. And further. AGAIN I SAID MACHETTE. CAN YOU READ?
I enlarged it so you can see it.

Many years ago we had a big mean SOB (BMSOB) who frequented the bars and pool halls of a place I am familiar with. He was a good scrapper and he liked doing it, especially about halfway into a fifth of Jim Beam. So he is getting trounced at billiards one night,fortified as previously described, and decides to beat hell out of the winner. After exchanging few blows, the winner departs with BMSOB following closely. Winner obtains a Ruger Standard 22 pistol from his pickup and chases BMSOB back inside.

Winner should have backed out and departed at that point; but the situation escalates and BMSOB grabs a cue off the wall, snaps it over a table and advances on Winner, who shoots BMSOB in the right eye (and the autopsy revealed it crossed his brain horizontally & diagonally, lodging against the skull but not exiting). BMSOB was so impressed by this he stood there a second, walked outside (with the cue still in his hand) and pitched over dead at the curb.

Anecdotal incident of course, but illustrative nonetheless.

You need tracer ammo

i take my elk/deer etc to a family owned processing center on a long time ranch where i know the owners. last time i had an elk in there, bunch of cattle were penned up waiting their doom. Some spent .22magnum casings laying around which is what they were using to put them down.

What's a rodeo without fireworks?

there is an article in the may2019 american rifleman that i thought was quite interesting on the sig sauer m17.
but what was also interested in the ammo the military selected for use through winchester.
the new loads are the m1152, and the m1153.
the m1152 is a 115grain fmj-fn bullet the m1153 is a 147gr jhp.
the 1152 is refered to as "ball" ammo", for use against enemy personnel, for training, and for force protection.
The jhp required for use in situations where limited over penetration of targets is necessary to reduce collateral damage.
in other words, special purpose equals jacketed hollow point.
pressures for both are at 39,700 p.s.i.
the 115 is moving out of a m17 at 1326fps, and 449ft lbs of energy and the 147 grain at 962fps, and 302ft lbs.
when you look at that 147grain bullet, it's the same as the ranger T series, the politically correct black talon, cept it isn't black.
I didn't have much trouble finding both on a couple of online distributors.
What i AM curious about is that 115gr fn fired into water jugs just to see how far it goes.
it IS interesting to me, that sig will hold a 21round magazine, and with an extension up to i think it's 33rounds.
with that ammo, and the modern optics, big time difference than in the past.
if one goes to ammotogo.com, under pistol ammunition, they have some good writeups for the popular handgun ammo, including gel, velocity, and other measurement, and pictures of the expanded bullets after firing.
There are significant differences in this stuff.
when you look at some of the test results in ammotogo for 9mm, the argument becomes a lot stronger. I have always been a .45acp type, but it's loosing ground to the firepower and performance of some of this new bonded 9mm ammo.
i was telling a guy last night that m17 with the long mags in it kind of makes me think of a legal mp5, in a lot of ways.

its like magic how the 22 LR into the brain works, just unfathomable, and how easy they are to shoot and how light they are..just magical..Why with my own eyes I saw a 60 pound or so pit bull take a step with a 115 grain +P+ federal fired between his eyes at 3 feet, just magic I tell you magic. If it had been a .45 I am sure he would not have taken that step, but then maybe I would have not gotten the safety off, or not fired as accurately or ??

can I ask the race of the offender with the machete? If it was a pygmy I would surely use a 9mm as a 45ACP would way over penetrate. On the other hand maybe I would use the gun that I was most familiar with and pray that the poor 9mm 124 grain HST bullet from my sig 365 and its poor short barrel would be effective in ventilating the carcass of which ever had the machete. I am sure someone will critique the 9mm 124 HST as I am sure its a very poor choice, very poor indeed. but lets say that you can hit a nickle at 10 yards with your raven .25ACP, but are scared of recoil and cannot shoot the caliber that Jeff Cooper handed down on Mt. Sinai? Would you be smarter to shoot at the pygmy with the raven 25 or caliber lord cooper gave us?

It has to be the brain and a .22 does nasty things there. My friend did penetration tests on a deer head and even a .17 pellet from his air rifle got in but not very deep. I had a neighbor in Ohio that came back from the war after being shot in the head from an 8MM Mauser. He survived but his faculties were a little off.
When I was a kid I got a Daisy Red Ryder BB gun and every day I went into the fields to hunt birds. I was deadly and killed many to my regret today since I love my feathered friends. Then I found a rabbit was there and I learned if I shot him he would run just so so I would go where he would show up to shoot him again and again and again. One day I hit right and he went up with a jump and died. I did not know what to do with it so I took it to a ladies house and she went ballistic, made me wash with Fels Naptha soap because she said I could get rabbit fever. Reminds me of the net and calibers, velocity and energy figures. Many ask how much muzzle energy to kill such and such. None because it changes with distance and only energy in the kill zone works, Not before or after.
Now the AR in .223 might have been the worst war gun ever. Jungle fighting with thick brush and trees. Thousands of rounds expended for each kill. Like a nine you can carry more. Now the 30-06 tracer round could penetrate 2 feet of green oak let alone the solid bullet that will do better. No hiding behind a tree. The AK was much better. The greatest battle rifles were Mauser's from 6.5 up, Springfield, British Enfields, US Enfields and The M1 and M14. The best pistol was the 1911. Then everything was pussyfied. Girly men but not the troops, just what the politicians thought would work better. Shoot more and it is better when one shot does the job so the gun is never empty.
Hunt with a .223 for big game, do you ever eat meat?
John you need to remember these are net hunters and game players. Just a select few might have shot a man in the course of duty but many missed and died. Many also hit and died from inferior guns.
I went to my neighbor today to help jack
a porch roof up for a fix for a rotten post bottom. He has a .380 on him all day and a big dog in the house. I had a drink for thanks and went to leave and the door was locked. Why in the smolly holy hell am I locked in the house? My door is open and he comes in but when I go to his house he has to unlock the doors. I actually have to call him if I am going over.

It was proven many times a guy with a knife will kill you before you can draw a gun. Get over it as you meld to dust.

Might be that military contractors selling bullets get paid more when people shoot a whole bunch of little bullets instead of a few big bullets.

That scenario is much more complex than you make it out to be.

I never leave the house with only one round, but than again, I'm not a doofus.

Well since all of you like to use statistics let us this one. Nothing is perfect. Not even a 1911, Glock or any of them.
Neither is ammo. So anything man has anything to do with imperfection more than likely will rear its ugly head at times.
Lets say your favorite carry gun has never let you down in 10,000 rounds. Lets say that that gun has a 99.5 percent perfection rate as far as functioning. NOTHING IS PERFECT. LETS KEEP THAT IN MIND. That means in 10,000 rounds there may be a 50 round failure rate. But lets say that that gun has fired 10,000 rounds in practice without a failure to function but lets say the very next time you carry it you have to fire to save your life. Bang the one in the chamber fires and the gun fails to feed that very next shot. You left home with a full magazine but wound up firing one round. Before you can complete the malfunction drill that cheap MACHETTE has made swift contact with the space between your head and shoulders and that big head with that pea brain is rolling around on the floor.
Now I know all of you own perfect firearms and perfect ammo so that will never happen. But for the sake of conversation, and all this hockey on this THREAD is just a meaningless conversation, let just go with my aforementioned scenario.
WHICH WOULD YOU CHOOSE?

I would choose the 9mm and federal 124 grain HST.

Oh yes, this is my back up. I would proclaim loudly Crocodile Dundee.
While making like Zorro.

Since we are making things up,

Lets' say I draw in 0.6 seconds, and empty the 15 rounds in the mag, plus one in the tube with 15 splits for a total elapsed time of 3 seconds before slide lock.

Since we are just making stuff up, I'll take the Glock 19 and my scenerio over yours.

My daughters is bigger than yours.

I didnt think you could go along.. course why would I have thought that?

If anyone remembers these rounds, they were both factory metal cased ball ammunition clocking 1,475 with a 115 in the 9mm and 1,400 with a 230 in the 45.....

I played along. I just didn't let you change the rules mid discussion.

We are discussing performance with modern bullets, not bullets from 40 years ago.

"I played along. I just didn't let you change the rules mid discussion."

Where did I change the rules?

FMJ's have changed very little, last I knew.

We've been having a multivariate discussion. You attempted to change it to a single variable discussion, and I'm not chasing your Red Herring.

Did I ask you to chase it. No one forced you to respond so boo hoo for you. This discussion is leading and will lead and will aways lead to nowhereland. You know it I know it and so does rhe original poster know it. These discussions have never lead anywhere but to nowhersville . Everyone comes up with horse hockey so I contributed some more horse hockey but Im not whining like someone forced me to.
Again boo hoo.

Says the guy who tried to drive the conversation a very specific direction, and is now unhappy he wasn't followed.

What have you shot with them?

Any animals?

I was wondering how long it would take for the god of the big bore to make an appearance. JC would use a 9mm.

Yeah I am so unhappy.

Back then they used clay blocks, but the problem with them is that they retain the temporary wound cavity as a permanent wound cavity. Apparently, temporary wound cavity tells little about actual stopping power. Modern materials don't retain the temporary wound cavity in the block, so give a more realistic idea of stopping power.

that sounds a bit fishy, but let me say this about that! An angry or deranged or even normal looking individual out of place with a Panga at 25 yards and moving toward me would have me getting my cell phone out and filming the incident! I would also try and deescalate the situation by talking in a soothing voice and asking the parang holder if they needed some cash, or wanted my car, cell phone, needed some food or something! Nothing could be as hurtful to the other individual as assuming they meant harm as they run towards you with a parang over their head. We all need to be mindful of peoples feelings and how hurtful it can be to assume a person means you harm just because they have a deadly weapon and are advancing towards you or in some cases demanding your wallet or your car. Keep in mind a smile and low soothing friendly tone will usually deescalate this type of situation. I unlike many of you understand how insensitive people can be to insane or deranged individuals especially if they are acting in a mildly aggressive manner. I only wish our Police people could take more classes on how to be soothing and sensitive when they confront a person with a parang, or pistol, rifle etc.

Dude you carry a 9mm... how much nicer to the guy can you be?

https://media1.tenor.com/images/157b1a2b391954dc83a2eb7c54ab6566/tenor.gif?itemid=5317124

As usual no one accepts anything and these arguments as stated above always end with no one ever saying " that sounds right" or "I am convinced based on the over whelming evidence you have presented". For me based on any logical look at the trend in the military/police world (despite the argument posted by those who's shooting improves exponentially when the recoil of a pistol increases that insist the 9 is chosen so the women can shoot it or that its cheaper) the 9mm with good bullets seems to be about as effective as any 45ACP or 40SW with any available bullets for them. edited to ask "what caliber did the greatest gunman in all of the old west use"

Can you shoot a 9mm, 45 ACP, 40, or 380 well enough under the highest stress level, topped with an adrenaline push that makes you feel like your movements are on auto pilot?....Noises around you are distorted and muffled like you’re in an echo chamber, except for the acute sound of your firearm discharging?

Can you control your decision when to press, once your front sight covers the clothes of someone who is going to try to kill you?

Are you capable of deciding in a split second whether it’s best to draw and take the immediate shot or look for cover?

The above really matters more than ballistic gelato perfection. I’m in the “camp” where a civilian carrying for protection may want to run with whatever pistol or revolver they can train the best with, caliber be damned.

It’s more than likely any gun play between a civilian and bad guys will be fast and short...Any prolonged gun battle between yourself and adversaries, though romantic, probably aren’t in our best interest when the police show up looking for someone with a gun.

I’ll take the short, fast gunfight, anyday, over the alternative 😎

I agree with you 100%.

I understand failures with semi's. It is real. I used the wrong dies on the ACP and none would feed, RCBS carbide that did not size down at the base. I use my Hornady .45 die now and it will feed. Then in my AMT 9mm magnum I had a case that did not clear and tied up the gun, devil of a time to remove the empty. I was shooting 155 cast sized at .356". I loaded more sized at .358" and the gun has more recoil without failures.
I would choose a good revolver over any semi. Some time ago I had 6 rounds left for my .44 SBH. Went hunting deer and got one. Left the gun loaded in the shoulder holster and shot 2 more so I had 3 deer with 3 shots left.
Yet my 1911's will work after finding the problems. Factory loads have never failed either. So does my Colt pocket pistol in .380 and the Browning .380. I would not fear to carry either. The reason is they are so accurate and well above most carry guns it is crazy. The old guns hit where pointed while Joe needs a 4'X4' board and has to aim why off to hit. Some say to just put the front sight on and shoot, so much bull pucky there.
The trend today are fiber optic sights that glare so bad in sun you can't align them and at night they can't be seen. I absolutely hate the red inserts on S&W and Colt revolvers. The SRH has a red insert too.
But back to defense if needed, would I want the .380? In a pinch but the 1911 that can hit at 100 yards is better.
Lets say a perp has a vest on. My revolvers will still kill from the massive energy to bust the heart even if the vest stopped the bullet.
The .22 will kill but are you good enough to put a shot between the eyes? Deer hunters get buck fever so in a life and death situation most turn to jello and shake like mad. Never fear, Superman will appear. Call 911 and in 20 minutes 10 cop cars will be there, with fire trucks to wash your blood down the drain.
Shoot a man in the lung, you get one only and he can live to kill you. Deer have both taken out. My neighbor got cancer from smoking and had half a lung removed and is going strong.

Not necessarily. A few years ago, I responded to a shooting with a 22 long rifle cartridge. Two teenagers were getting ready to go trick or treating on Halloween. One was dressed up as a cowboy and had a Ruger single six in his holster. While his friend was getting ready, he was practicing his quick draw. Unfortunately, there was one round in the gun and on the third quick draw, the gun fired. His friend was on the opposite side of the room and from the hip, he hit his friend exactly centered between the eyes (not sure if that is the center you were talking about).

When I arrived, one boy was standing there, calmly, explaining what happened and the other was on the floor, curled up in a ball. The one telling me what happened was the one with the hole between the eyes. I later learned that the bullet broke into two pieces (round nose, not a hollow point). The larger piece stopped between the lobes of the brain and the smaller piece curved around behind the eye, putting pressure on the optic nerve. He never lost consciousness and he completely recovered.

I am going to give up carrying the 9mm because we have proved that its worthless and would only serve to piss off the parang boy .

God worked a miracle in that instance! The 22 is on record for causing more deaths than any other caliber but that's because there are so many of them.

http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2006/04/22-long-rifle-for-self-defense.html
this guy is a mensa genius!!!!

it would take seven well aimed shots to inject the same lead volume of one bullet of .45ACP. Those seven shots take time, and the cumulative effect may not be reached until minutes or even hours later.

Due to the overwhelming evidence presented and my extensive internet research, I agree with you 87.39%.

Um, okay.

Having shot deer sized critters in the soft spots with 22-72 solids, I gotta call horseshit on that one.

What's your experience?

With 20 years experience in Law Enforcement and a few more in the military I have had plenty of time with the 9mm shooting various flavors of ammunition. The 9mm is so prolific simply because it’s cheap and it can be passed off as effective. It’s a compromise and a piss poor one. I’ve also carried,40 cal and that was a better round but a certain demographic couldn’t handle the recoil as well and scores fell. A 9 mm,like any sidearm , IMO is a good distraction so I can get to my M4 or 12 gauge. Just my nickel,keep the change.

Why would anyone want more power or damage accurately applied via an M4 or 12 gauge......they're all the same dontcha know.

well, i don't think you are going to pack a 12guage or m4 in your fanny pack to enter walmart.
i remember when the cat's meow was a model 19 in the 70's, and the turn to the .45acp. Then the .40, which was a compromise.
I am of the opinion that all of these calibers can be effective as far as they go.
having said that i was looking at the two new rounds for the m17. that 147grain jcp sure looks like a black talon.
i was repacking some 127gr 9mm rounds in the box tonight i bought a long time ago. They are +p+ and are the politically correct color for black talon. Recommended to me by a FBI guy at the time.
The other atvantage to a 9, with modern bullets, is being able to stay on target while it's recoiling and the magazine capacity.
the m17 has a 17 and 21 round mag, but can be extended to 33 rounds.
that's just an awful lot of firepower.
And a nine will out penetrate a .45. All of this is an old argument, but isn't likely to sway anybody's opinion.
And i might have more than one 45

Not quite an M4, but close:

Ron,

Ever poked any critters with the 9 and those bullets?

Have only been around the 124 Golden Saber (38 Super) and 9mm 147 Hydra Shok on critters; under 25 yards, I would hope bullets have gotten WAY better.
The GS sure opened up fine, the animal just didn't care (by about 500 yards). They do that sometimes. The HS went right through, 35 cal. or so holes through both sides. Never needed 33 rounds, 3 did the trick on a pig that was pretty close to the size of a football...should have just shot it in the head.

Been around several 45 Auto/45 Super kills with hard cast and softnosed hard cast Keiths, and they worked very well. Have never done the 45 ACP with anything not home brewed.

Ever gunned "modern" 9mm bullets on any kind of meat? Maybe a grackle?

Missed your response....

Caliber wars aside, I am still impressed by that Austin cop that shot and killed a perp at just over 100 yards. One handed, holding onto horses with, I believe a 40 cal.

No handgun hunting (other than .22 rimfire on rabbits and squirrels). I've only shot large animals with .30-30, .30-06, and .444 Marlin. I was simply stating what has been discovered by science about permanent vs temporary wound cavities.

9 x .22 = 198 caliber?
I wonder what her stance was buck naked?

maybe I was wrong, maybe I misconstrued the entire point of the gel testing science which says that until you get above 2200 FPS the temporary wound cavities remain temporary????? Am I in the twilight zone or did they say that at 2200-2300 the temporary wound cavity exceeds the tissues ability to stretch and it tears the tissue resulting in more damage further from the entry wound. Which to someone in the Mensa society MIGHT mean that a 77 grain .22 caliber SMK thru your chest at 2400 FPS would be slightly more injurious to your carcass than a 44 magnum 240 grain soft point thru the same hole? My disclaimer is that you would certainly feel more manly handling the recoil and making the shot with the 44 magnum. For those of you who are NOT mensa members, the statistics of gun shot wounding show 44 magnum has about the same effectiveness as 9mm, 40SW, and 45ACP, however the bullets do make a bigger splat on the wall behind the intended target.

In my penetration test of the 2 in 1X4’s and 55 gallon metal drums the 9 did not out penetrate the 45. That may have been true before +P 45’s

Not surprising

And how many .44 Mag cases were represented in those statistics? Two? Three? Statistically insignificant.

More importantly where did the shots land. Anyone that thinks a proper defensive round in a full power 44 mag isn’t higher on the food chain is full of BS.

I shot a young buck with a Remington 240 grain SJHP that exited the off shoulder and nearly took the entire shoulder off Those bullets near 1400 FPS expand about the size of a silver dollar. I could not imagine one walking away from that.

Max it was posted here about a month ago, several hundred from multiple different caliber handguns.

here is a contribution by Bristoe.

380

general bs

so for the 4-5th time in 3 months we have had a lively discussion of the same thing...ya got to love this place a bunch of senile old men most who have lost half their hearing to gunshot damage and who cannot remember what the hell they posted last month arguing the same crap over and over again.

This is interesting to me (Maybe the breed of cattle?) bur I killed I'm sure more than a train car load of Holstein steers with a 22 rifle shooting 22 long rifle standard velocity solids. Imagine a x drawn from left ear to right eye and from right ear to left eye. Hold off 1/2 inch left or right from the center of the x and one shot and done. Only remember one wild eyed big ole raw boned steer giving me fits, and that was on me. Hurried my shot and the rodeo was on:)

That's the BEST video I've seen on handgun effectiveness in a very long time!

Thanks for posting!

Elk Country

Agree, the damage to deer with the .44 has to be seen to be believed. Anyone that thinks a nine is as good has fallen off a cliff. I would not want to be shot with anything from the .22 up of course and not even a BB gun. But the .44 will spray blood and guts. I hate that I can't post pictures here with size restrictions.
Mensa, remember where we hunted. the lady is Mensa class but do you remember what she lived like. It is worse now. She lives in the junk filled truck and not the house. No water or toilet inside. Hey Marko, you could write a book about her and make the world laugh.

https://postimages.org/

I could not get it to work.

Hmm. Works for me.

wonder what caliber this was?

I am deeply offended by that photo.

I hope that guy wasn't a lefty.

More importantly, does that middle finger still work?

If he was spun around twice and knocked to the ground then it was definitely a .45 ACP with 230 gr. hardball...

Maybe he is now.