Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Why Ballistics Gel Works And Caliber Arguments Are Dumb

Did I ask you to chase it. No one forced you to respond so boo hoo for you. This discussion is leading and will lead and will aways lead to nowhereland. You know it I know it and so does rhe original poster know it. These discussions have never lead anywhere but to nowhersville . Everyone comes up with horse hockey so I contributed some more horse hockey but Im not whining like someone forced me to.
Again boo hoo.

Says the guy who tried to drive the conversation a very specific direction, and is now unhappy he wasn't followed.

What have you shot with them?

Any animals?

I was wondering how long it would take for the god of the big bore to make an appearance. JC would use a 9mm.

Yeah I am so unhappy.

Back then they used clay blocks, but the problem with them is that they retain the temporary wound cavity as a permanent wound cavity. Apparently, temporary wound cavity tells little about actual stopping power. Modern materials don't retain the temporary wound cavity in the block, so give a more realistic idea of stopping power.

that sounds a bit fishy, but let me say this about that! An angry or deranged or even normal looking individual out of place with a Panga at 25 yards and moving toward me would have me getting my cell phone out and filming the incident! I would also try and deescalate the situation by talking in a soothing voice and asking the parang holder if they needed some cash, or wanted my car, cell phone, needed some food or something! Nothing could be as hurtful to the other individual as assuming they meant harm as they run towards you with a parang over their head. We all need to be mindful of peoples feelings and how hurtful it can be to assume a person means you harm just because they have a deadly weapon and are advancing towards you or in some cases demanding your wallet or your car. Keep in mind a smile and low soothing friendly tone will usually deescalate this type of situation. I unlike many of you understand how insensitive people can be to insane or deranged individuals especially if they are acting in a mildly aggressive manner. I only wish our Police people could take more classes on how to be soothing and sensitive when they confront a person with a parang, or pistol, rifle etc.

Dude you carry a 9mm... how much nicer to the guy can you be?

https://media1.tenor.com/images/157b1a2b391954dc83a2eb7c54ab6566/tenor.gif?itemid=5317124

As usual no one accepts anything and these arguments as stated above always end with no one ever saying " that sounds right" or "I am convinced based on the over whelming evidence you have presented". For me based on any logical look at the trend in the military/police world (despite the argument posted by those who's shooting improves exponentially when the recoil of a pistol increases that insist the 9 is chosen so the women can shoot it or that its cheaper) the 9mm with good bullets seems to be about as effective as any 45ACP or 40SW with any available bullets for them. edited to ask "what caliber did the greatest gunman in all of the old west use"

Can you shoot a 9mm, 45 ACP, 40, or 380 well enough under the highest stress level, topped with an adrenaline push that makes you feel like your movements are on auto pilot?....Noises around you are distorted and muffled like you’re in an echo chamber, except for the acute sound of your firearm discharging?

Can you control your decision when to press, once your front sight covers the clothes of someone who is going to try to kill you?

Are you capable of deciding in a split second whether it’s best to draw and take the immediate shot or look for cover?

The above really matters more than ballistic gelato perfection. I’m in the “camp” where a civilian carrying for protection may want to run with whatever pistol or revolver they can train the best with, caliber be damned.

It’s more than likely any gun play between a civilian and bad guys will be fast and short...Any prolonged gun battle between yourself and adversaries, though romantic, probably aren’t in our best interest when the police show up looking for someone with a gun.

I’ll take the short, fast gunfight, anyday, over the alternative 😎

I agree with you 100%.

I understand failures with semi's. It is real. I used the wrong dies on the ACP and none would feed, RCBS carbide that did not size down at the base. I use my Hornady .45 die now and it will feed. Then in my AMT 9mm magnum I had a case that did not clear and tied up the gun, devil of a time to remove the empty. I was shooting 155 cast sized at .356". I loaded more sized at .358" and the gun has more recoil without failures.
I would choose a good revolver over any semi. Some time ago I had 6 rounds left for my .44 SBH. Went hunting deer and got one. Left the gun loaded in the shoulder holster and shot 2 more so I had 3 deer with 3 shots left.
Yet my 1911's will work after finding the problems. Factory loads have never failed either. So does my Colt pocket pistol in .380 and the Browning .380. I would not fear to carry either. The reason is they are so accurate and well above most carry guns it is crazy. The old guns hit where pointed while Joe needs a 4'X4' board and has to aim why off to hit. Some say to just put the front sight on and shoot, so much bull pucky there.
The trend today are fiber optic sights that glare so bad in sun you can't align them and at night they can't be seen. I absolutely hate the red inserts on S&W and Colt revolvers. The SRH has a red insert too.
But back to defense if needed, would I want the .380? In a pinch but the 1911 that can hit at 100 yards is better.
Lets say a perp has a vest on. My revolvers will still kill from the massive energy to bust the heart even if the vest stopped the bullet.
The .22 will kill but are you good enough to put a shot between the eyes? Deer hunters get buck fever so in a life and death situation most turn to jello and shake like mad. Never fear, Superman will appear. Call 911 and in 20 minutes 10 cop cars will be there, with fire trucks to wash your blood down the drain.
Shoot a man in the lung, you get one only and he can live to kill you. Deer have both taken out. My neighbor got cancer from smoking and had half a lung removed and is going strong.

Not necessarily. A few years ago, I responded to a shooting with a 22 long rifle cartridge. Two teenagers were getting ready to go trick or treating on Halloween. One was dressed up as a cowboy and had a Ruger single six in his holster. While his friend was getting ready, he was practicing his quick draw. Unfortunately, there was one round in the gun and on the third quick draw, the gun fired. His friend was on the opposite side of the room and from the hip, he hit his friend exactly centered between the eyes (not sure if that is the center you were talking about).

When I arrived, one boy was standing there, calmly, explaining what happened and the other was on the floor, curled up in a ball. The one telling me what happened was the one with the hole between the eyes. I later learned that the bullet broke into two pieces (round nose, not a hollow point). The larger piece stopped between the lobes of the brain and the smaller piece curved around behind the eye, putting pressure on the optic nerve. He never lost consciousness and he completely recovered.

I am going to give up carrying the 9mm because we have proved that its worthless and would only serve to piss off the parang boy .

God worked a miracle in that instance! The 22 is on record for causing more deaths than any other caliber but that's because there are so many of them.

http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2006/04/22-long-rifle-for-self-defense.html
this guy is a mensa genius!!!!

it would take seven well aimed shots to inject the same lead volume of one bullet of .45ACP. Those seven shots take time, and the cumulative effect may not be reached until minutes or even hours later.

Due to the overwhelming evidence presented and my extensive internet research, I agree with you 87.39%.

Um, okay.

Having shot deer sized critters in the soft spots with 22-72 solids, I gotta call horseshit on that one.

What's your experience?

With 20 years experience in Law Enforcement and a few more in the military I have had plenty of time with the 9mm shooting various flavors of ammunition. The 9mm is so prolific simply because it’s cheap and it can be passed off as effective. It’s a compromise and a piss poor one. I’ve also carried,40 cal and that was a better round but a certain demographic couldn’t handle the recoil as well and scores fell. A 9 mm,like any sidearm , IMO is a good distraction so I can get to my M4 or 12 gauge. Just my nickel,keep the change.

Why would anyone want more power or damage accurately applied via an M4 or 12 gauge......they're all the same dontcha know.

well, i don't think you are going to pack a 12guage or m4 in your fanny pack to enter walmart.
i remember when the cat's meow was a model 19 in the 70's, and the turn to the .45acp. Then the .40, which was a compromise.
I am of the opinion that all of these calibers can be effective as far as they go.
having said that i was looking at the two new rounds for the m17. that 147grain jcp sure looks like a black talon.
i was repacking some 127gr 9mm rounds in the box tonight i bought a long time ago. They are +p+ and are the politically correct color for black talon. Recommended to me by a FBI guy at the time.
The other atvantage to a 9, with modern bullets, is being able to stay on target while it's recoiling and the magazine capacity.
the m17 has a 17 and 21 round mag, but can be extended to 33 rounds.
that's just an awful lot of firepower.
And a nine will out penetrate a .45. All of this is an old argument, but isn't likely to sway anybody's opinion.
And i might have more than one 45