Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Why Ballistics Gel Works And Caliber Arguments Are Dumb

there is an article in the may2019 american rifleman that i thought was quite interesting on the sig sauer m17.
but what was also interested in the ammo the military selected for use through winchester.
the new loads are the m1152, and the m1153.
the m1152 is a 115grain fmj-fn bullet the m1153 is a 147gr jhp.
the 1152 is refered to as "ball" ammo", for use against enemy personnel, for training, and for force protection.
The jhp required for use in situations where limited over penetration of targets is necessary to reduce collateral damage.
in other words, special purpose equals jacketed hollow point.
pressures for both are at 39,700 p.s.i.
the 115 is moving out of a m17 at 1326fps, and 449ft lbs of energy and the 147 grain at 962fps, and 302ft lbs.
when you look at that 147grain bullet, it's the same as the ranger T series, the politically correct black talon, cept it isn't black.
I didn't have much trouble finding both on a couple of online distributors.
What i AM curious about is that 115gr fn fired into water jugs just to see how far it goes.
it IS interesting to me, that sig will hold a 21round magazine, and with an extension up to i think it's 33rounds.
with that ammo, and the modern optics, big time difference than in the past.
if one goes to ammotogo.com, under pistol ammunition, they have some good writeups for the popular handgun ammo, including gel, velocity, and other measurement, and pictures of the expanded bullets after firing.
There are significant differences in this stuff.
when you look at some of the test results in ammotogo for 9mm, the argument becomes a lot stronger. I have always been a .45acp type, but it's loosing ground to the firepower and performance of some of this new bonded 9mm ammo.
i was telling a guy last night that m17 with the long mags in it kind of makes me think of a legal mp5, in a lot of ways.

its like magic how the 22 LR into the brain works, just unfathomable, and how easy they are to shoot and how light they are..just magical..Why with my own eyes I saw a 60 pound or so pit bull take a step with a 115 grain +P+ federal fired between his eyes at 3 feet, just magic I tell you magic. If it had been a .45 I am sure he would not have taken that step, but then maybe I would have not gotten the safety off, or not fired as accurately or ??

can I ask the race of the offender with the machete? If it was a pygmy I would surely use a 9mm as a 45ACP would way over penetrate. On the other hand maybe I would use the gun that I was most familiar with and pray that the poor 9mm 124 grain HST bullet from my sig 365 and its poor short barrel would be effective in ventilating the carcass of which ever had the machete. I am sure someone will critique the 9mm 124 HST as I am sure its a very poor choice, very poor indeed. but lets say that you can hit a nickle at 10 yards with your raven .25ACP, but are scared of recoil and cannot shoot the caliber that Jeff Cooper handed down on Mt. Sinai? Would you be smarter to shoot at the pygmy with the raven 25 or caliber lord cooper gave us?

It has to be the brain and a .22 does nasty things there. My friend did penetration tests on a deer head and even a .17 pellet from his air rifle got in but not very deep. I had a neighbor in Ohio that came back from the war after being shot in the head from an 8MM Mauser. He survived but his faculties were a little off.
When I was a kid I got a Daisy Red Ryder BB gun and every day I went into the fields to hunt birds. I was deadly and killed many to my regret today since I love my feathered friends. Then I found a rabbit was there and I learned if I shot him he would run just so so I would go where he would show up to shoot him again and again and again. One day I hit right and he went up with a jump and died. I did not know what to do with it so I took it to a ladies house and she went ballistic, made me wash with Fels Naptha soap because she said I could get rabbit fever. Reminds me of the net and calibers, velocity and energy figures. Many ask how much muzzle energy to kill such and such. None because it changes with distance and only energy in the kill zone works, Not before or after.
Now the AR in .223 might have been the worst war gun ever. Jungle fighting with thick brush and trees. Thousands of rounds expended for each kill. Like a nine you can carry more. Now the 30-06 tracer round could penetrate 2 feet of green oak let alone the solid bullet that will do better. No hiding behind a tree. The AK was much better. The greatest battle rifles were Mauser's from 6.5 up, Springfield, British Enfields, US Enfields and The M1 and M14. The best pistol was the 1911. Then everything was pussyfied. Girly men but not the troops, just what the politicians thought would work better. Shoot more and it is better when one shot does the job so the gun is never empty.
Hunt with a .223 for big game, do you ever eat meat?
John you need to remember these are net hunters and game players. Just a select few might have shot a man in the course of duty but many missed and died. Many also hit and died from inferior guns.
I went to my neighbor today to help jack
a porch roof up for a fix for a rotten post bottom. He has a .380 on him all day and a big dog in the house. I had a drink for thanks and went to leave and the door was locked. Why in the smolly holy hell am I locked in the house? My door is open and he comes in but when I go to his house he has to unlock the doors. I actually have to call him if I am going over.

It was proven many times a guy with a knife will kill you before you can draw a gun. Get over it as you meld to dust.

Might be that military contractors selling bullets get paid more when people shoot a whole bunch of little bullets instead of a few big bullets.

That scenario is much more complex than you make it out to be.

I never leave the house with only one round, but than again, I'm not a doofus.

Well since all of you like to use statistics let us this one. Nothing is perfect. Not even a 1911, Glock or any of them.
Neither is ammo. So anything man has anything to do with imperfection more than likely will rear its ugly head at times.
Lets say your favorite carry gun has never let you down in 10,000 rounds. Lets say that that gun has a 99.5 percent perfection rate as far as functioning. NOTHING IS PERFECT. LETS KEEP THAT IN MIND. That means in 10,000 rounds there may be a 50 round failure rate. But lets say that that gun has fired 10,000 rounds in practice without a failure to function but lets say the very next time you carry it you have to fire to save your life. Bang the one in the chamber fires and the gun fails to feed that very next shot. You left home with a full magazine but wound up firing one round. Before you can complete the malfunction drill that cheap MACHETTE has made swift contact with the space between your head and shoulders and that big head with that pea brain is rolling around on the floor.
Now I know all of you own perfect firearms and perfect ammo so that will never happen. But for the sake of conversation, and all this hockey on this THREAD is just a meaningless conversation, let just go with my aforementioned scenario.
WHICH WOULD YOU CHOOSE?

I would choose the 9mm and federal 124 grain HST.

Oh yes, this is my back up. I would proclaim loudly Crocodile Dundee.
While making like Zorro.

Since we are making things up,

Lets' say I draw in 0.6 seconds, and empty the 15 rounds in the mag, plus one in the tube with 15 splits for a total elapsed time of 3 seconds before slide lock.

Since we are just making stuff up, I'll take the Glock 19 and my scenerio over yours.

My daughters is bigger than yours.

I didnt think you could go along.. course why would I have thought that?

If anyone remembers these rounds, they were both factory metal cased ball ammunition clocking 1,475 with a 115 in the 9mm and 1,400 with a 230 in the 45.....

I played along. I just didn't let you change the rules mid discussion.

We are discussing performance with modern bullets, not bullets from 40 years ago.

"I played along. I just didn't let you change the rules mid discussion."

Where did I change the rules?

FMJ's have changed very little, last I knew.

We've been having a multivariate discussion. You attempted to change it to a single variable discussion, and I'm not chasing your Red Herring.