Ever poked any critters with the 9 and those bullets?
Have only been around the 124 Golden Saber (38 Super) and 9mm 147 Hydra Shok on critters; under 25 yards, I would hope bullets have gotten WAY better. The GS sure opened up fine, the animal just didn't care (by about 500 yards). They do that sometimes. The HS went right through, 35 cal. or so holes through both sides. Never needed 33 rounds, 3 did the trick on a pig that was pretty close to the size of a football...should have just shot it in the head.
Been around several 45 Auto/45 Super kills with hard cast and softnosed hard cast Keiths, and they worked very well. Have never done the 45 ACP with anything not home brewed.
Caliber wars aside, I am still impressed by that Austin cop that shot and killed a perp at just over 100 yards. One handed, holding onto horses with, I believe a 40 cal.
Back then they used clay blocks, but the problem with them is that they retain the temporary wound cavity as a permanent wound cavity. Apparently, temporary wound cavity tells little about actual stopping power. Modern materials don't retain the temporary wound cavity in the block, so give a more realistic idea of stopping power.
Um, okay.
Having shot deer sized critters in the soft spots with 22-72 solids, I gotta call horseshit on that one.
What's your experience?
No handgun hunting (other than .22 rimfire on rabbits and squirrels). I've only shot large animals with .30-30, .30-06, and .444 Marlin. I was simply stating what has been discovered by science about permanent vs temporary wound cavities.
maybe I was wrong, maybe I misconstrued the entire point of the gel testing science which says that until you get above 2200 FPS the temporary wound cavities remain temporary????? Am I in the twilight zone or did they say that at 2200-2300 the temporary wound cavity exceeds the tissues ability to stretch and it tears the tissue resulting in more damage further from the entry wound. Which to someone in the Mensa society MIGHT mean that a 77 grain .22 caliber SMK thru your chest at 2400 FPS would be slightly more injurious to your carcass than a 44 magnum 240 grain soft point thru the same hole? My disclaimer is that you would certainly feel more manly handling the recoil and making the shot with the 44 magnum. For those of you who are NOT mensa members, the statistics of gun shot wounding show 44 magnum has about the same effectiveness as 9mm, 40SW, and 45ACP, however the bullets do make a bigger splat on the wall behind the intended target.
well, i don't think you are going to pack a 12guage or m4 in your fanny pack to enter walmart. i remember when the cat's meow was a model 19 in the 70's, and the turn to the .45acp. Then the .40, which was a compromise. I am of the opinion that all of these calibers can be effective as far as they go. having said that i was looking at the two new rounds for the m17. that 147grain jcp sure looks like a black talon. i was repacking some 127gr 9mm rounds in the box tonight i bought a long time ago. They are +p+ and are the politically correct color for black talon. Recommended to me by a FBI guy at the time. The other atvantage to a 9, with modern bullets, is being able to stay on target while it's recoiling and the magazine capacity. the m17 has a 17 and 21 round mag, but can be extended to 33 rounds. that's just an awful lot of firepower. And a nine will out penetrate a .45. All of this is an old argument, but isn't likely to sway anybody's opinion. And i might have more than one 45
In my penetration test of the 2 in 1X4’s and 55 gallon metal drums the 9 did not out penetrate the 45. That may have been true before +P 45’s
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
With 20 years experience in Law Enforcement and a few more in the military I have had plenty of time with the 9mm shooting various flavors of ammunition. The 9mm is so prolific simply because it’s cheap and it can be passed off as effective. It’s a compromise and a piss poor one. I’ve also carried,40 cal and that was a better round but a certain demographic couldn’t handle the recoil as well and scores fell. A 9 mm,like any sidearm , IMO is a good distraction so I can get to my M4 or 12 gauge. Just my nickel,keep the change.
Not surprising
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
maybe I was wrong, maybe I misconstrued the entire point of the gel testing science which says that until you get above 2200 FPS the temporary wound cavities remain temporary????? Am I in the twilight zone or did they say that at 2200-2300 the temporary wound cavity exceeds the tissues ability to stretch and it tears the tissue resulting in more damage further from the entry wound. Which to someone in the Mensa society MIGHT mean that a 77 grain .22 caliber SMK thru your chest at 2400 FPS would be slightly more injurious to your carcass than a 44 magnum 240 grain soft point thru the same hole? My disclaimer is that you would certainly feel more manly handling the recoil and making the shot with the 44 magnum. For those of you who are NOT mensa members, the statistics of gun shot wounding show 44 magnum has about the same effectiveness as 9mm, 40SW, and 45ACP, however the bullets do make a bigger splat on the wall behind the intended target.
And how many .44 Mag cases were represented in those statistics? Two? Three? Statistically insignificant.
maybe I was wrong, maybe I misconstrued the entire point of the gel testing science which says that until you get above 2200 FPS the temporary wound cavities remain temporary????? Am I in the twilight zone or did they say that at 2200-2300 the temporary wound cavity exceeds the tissues ability to stretch and it tears the tissue resulting in more damage further from the entry wound. Which to someone in the Mensa society MIGHT mean that a 77 grain .22 caliber SMK thru your chest at 2400 FPS would be slightly more injurious to your carcass than a 44 magnum 240 grain soft point thru the same hole? My disclaimer is that you would certainly feel more manly handling the recoil and making the shot with the 44 magnum. For those of you who are NOT mensa members, the statistics of gun shot wounding show 44 magnum has about the same effectiveness as 9mm, 40SW, and 45ACP, however the bullets do make a bigger splat on the wall behind the intended target.
And how many .44 Mag cases were represented in those statistics? Two? Three? Statistically insignificant.
More importantly where did the shots land. Anyone that thinks a proper defensive round in a full power 44 mag isn’t higher on the food chain is full of BS.
I shot a young buck with a Remington 240 grain SJHP that exited the off shoulder and nearly took the entire shoulder off Those bullets near 1400 FPS expand about the size of a silver dollar. I could not imagine one walking away from that.
Last edited by jwp475; 04/26/19.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
so for the 4-5th time in 3 months we have had a lively discussion of the same thing...ya got to love this place a bunch of senile old men most who have lost half their hearing to gunshot damage and who cannot remember what the hell they posted last month arguing the same crap over and over again.
One of a multitude of reasons I've schlepped a 22LR Pistole for Bear "defense",for better than 30 years.
We used to slaughter hogs on the farm using an old knife that hung on the wall in the barn. My dad persuaded my uncle in the mid-60's that his .22 pistol did a better job, and was less messy. It did, and it was.
Dad's .22 didn't work quite as well on cattle, though... thicker skulls, I expect. They certainly look so when you run them through the bandsaw, though I never got out the dial calipers to quantify. Anyways, we used my grandfather's .455 Webley (the only other handgun Dad owned) on the slaughter steers after the first couple of .22 caliber rodeos. I prefer 45's myself, nowadays, although I'd be just as comfortable with a .38 Special for such purposes.
YMMV.
i take my elk/deer etc to a family owned processing center on a long time ranch where i know the owners. last time i had an elk in there, bunch of cattle were penned up waiting their doom. Some spent .22magnum casings laying around which is what they were using to put them down.
This is interesting to me (Maybe the breed of cattle?) bur I killed I'm sure more than a train car load of Holstein steers with a 22 rifle shooting 22 long rifle standard velocity solids. Imagine a x drawn from left ear to right eye and from right ear to left eye. Hold off 1/2 inch left or right from the center of the x and one shot and done. Only remember one wild eyed big ole raw boned steer giving me fits, and that was on me. Hurried my shot and the rodeo was on:)
maybe I was wrong, maybe I misconstrued the entire point of the gel testing science which says that until you get above 2200 FPS the temporary wound cavities remain temporary????? Am I in the twilight zone or did they say that at 2200-2300 the temporary wound cavity exceeds the tissues ability to stretch and it tears the tissue resulting in more damage further from the entry wound. Which to someone in the Mensa society MIGHT mean that a 77 grain .22 caliber SMK thru your chest at 2400 FPS would be slightly more injurious to your carcass than a 44 magnum 240 grain soft point thru the same hole? My disclaimer is that you would certainly feel more manly handling the recoil and making the shot with the 44 magnum. For those of you who are NOT mensa members, the statistics of gun shot wounding show 44 magnum has about the same effectiveness as 9mm, 40SW, and 45ACP, however the bullets do make a bigger splat on the wall behind the intended target.
And how many .44 Mag cases were represented in those statistics? Two? Three? Statistically insignificant.
Agree, the damage to deer with the .44 has to be seen to be believed. Anyone that thinks a nine is as good has fallen off a cliff. I would not want to be shot with anything from the .22 up of course and not even a BB gun. But the .44 will spray blood and guts. I hate that I can't post pictures here with size restrictions. Mensa, remember where we hunted. the lady is Mensa class but do you remember what she lived like. It is worse now. She lives in the junk filled truck and not the house. No water or toilet inside. Hey Marko, you could write a book about her and make the world laugh.
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