|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,315 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,315 Likes: 1 |
Son, I hunt with both 223 and 25 caliber, they are going over 3000 FPS, you keep forgetting velocity in your thinking.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,958
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,958 |
Son, I hunt with both 223 and 25 caliber, they are going over 3000 FPS, you keep forgetting velocity in your thinking. FMJ or expanding, junior? Bullets respond to velocity, in what they are designed to do and what they are made of. You can make them go splat at 1800 or less, with the same length, weight, yada. Bronze ain't lead and 5 bhn ain't 30....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,558 Likes: 10
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,558 Likes: 10 |
Shooting Critters,resolves all.
Hint..................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,518
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,518 |
All questions, confusions, predicaments, musings and such and such as has now been settled. No more needs to be said.
Clue.....................
I AM THE GOOD FRIEND OF RENEGADE50.
HE MENTORS ME.
HE PUNISHES ME WHEN I AM WRONG.
HE CALLS ME OUT WHEN I AM LYING.
HE CARES GREATLY ABOUT ME.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,315 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,315 Likes: 1 |
Son, your entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. You need to try an be a little more mature. Just because you feel strongly about something doesn’t make it right.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,143
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,143 |
Just because you feel strongly about something doesn’t make it right. This cuts both ways, Jimmy.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,315 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,315 Likes: 1 |
There is no major difference between 45ACP, 40SW and 9MM. Its not me saying it, it’s everybody saying it that tests bullets and calibers.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920 |
Frequently, forensic pathologists cannot distinguish the wound track caused by a hollow point bullet (large temporary cavity) from that caused by a solid bullet (very small temporary cavity). There may be no physical difference in the wounds. If there is no fragmentation, remote damage due to temporary cavitation may be minor even with high velocity rifle projectiles.19 Even those who have espoused the significance of temporary cavity agree that it is not a factor in handgun wounds:
Physiologically, a determined adversary can be stopped reliably and immediately only by a shot that disrupts the brain or upper spinal cord. Failing a hit to the central nervous system, massive bleeding from holes in the heart or major blood vessels of the torso causing circulatory collapse is the only other way to force incapacitation upon an adversary, and this takes time. For example, there is sufficient oxygen within the brain to support full, voluntary action for 10-15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed.28
Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed."43
Can someone tell me how a .093 smaller diameter bullet that penetrates 20 inches of denim covered ballistic gelatin is worse than a .093 diameter bigger bullet that penetrates about the same? "Forensic pathologists".....they deal with DEAD BODIES...they don't see the guys that recover...they don't ask the Shooter what the Shootee did when he was hit...all they see is wound tracks and damage to DEAD BODIES. For all they know the Dead Shootee killed five more people but yet had this perfectly expanded bullet right through his heard... "Physiologically, a determined adversary can be stopped reliably and immediately only by a shot that disrupts the brain or upper spinal cord. Failing a hit to the central nervous system, massive bleeding from holes in the heart or major blood vessels of the torso causing circulatory collapse is the only other way to force incapacitation upon an adversary, and this takes time. For example, there is sufficient oxygen within the brain to support full, voluntary action for 10-15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed." Apparently you have not talked to very many people who have been in gunfights..the winners that is... Funny but a lot of the Shooters I have spoken with DID NOT GET A CNS HIT and yet the guy went right down.... The oldest guy in my academy class shot a guy who had just tried to shoot him...hit the guy with a .357 125 JHP right between the navel and the nutz and "Bob the guy went down so fast my second round went over his head"...and the guy lived to stand trial... No CNS hit...no majot blood loss before kissing the pavement involuntarily.. The FPs never saw him so the round was never judged... Killing someone is NOT the object of a defensive shooting....stopping the behavior IMMEDIATELY is the object. LabRats are the last people you should be listening to when it comes to gun fighting....all they see is what killed the Shootee...not what happened before he died.... Bob
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,958
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,958 |
Son, your entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. You need to try an be a little more mature. Just because you feel strongly about something doesn’t make it right. My judgements are from my own experiences, largely from bullets I have made myself, used on animals I've shot myself. I am pretty confident I can build a handgun bullet that expands to a lower impact velocity and penetrates more than what you can buy or have available to you. I didn't arrive to that conclusion based on heresay or some study with an agenda. As for maturity, maybe when you grow up you can make your own handgun bullets, pit them against manufactured "perfection", shoot your own animals with them and have your own conclusions, instead of pulling up anecdotes you've obviously have no personal experience or effort in.....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,939 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,939 Likes: 1 |
The FBI has been coming up with wonder loads ranging from 9mm-10mm since the agency was formed; since they have come to the conclusion all do the work of a 45 while allowing more rounds, easier hit repeatability, the next logical step is the adoption of a 25 or 32 (30) caliber service round and weapon that will reasonably extend the same logic. Hell, Ive just read here a 22 lr and a 22 Mag needn't expand, since its pointless under 2,300 fps....
Never mind every time the FBI adopts a cartridge it ISN'T a 45 and when the military actually uses a sidearm en masse it goes back to the 45, since those tasked with actually using a handgun and not merely testing them seem to have an imaginary inclination and preference towards it.
The some really ingnorant thangs being posted in this thread, however I do want to correct a myth that is commonly repeated... Every single military/Fed unit/organization that has a choice, has realistic and consistent high level training, and actually kills people with handguns on the regular have choosen 9mm. EVERY SINGLE ONE. When a couple of those units did use 45’s, it had a lot less to do with the round, and much more to do with the platform- (custom 1911’s). The military units that actually kill people with pistols are very happy with modern 9mm... Just like the FBI. Because when seen in large numbers there just isn’t a noticeable difference between 9mm/40/45 in people. As for the FBI developing new loads/bullets all the time... well I would hope so? Technology changes. All that aside, the military units that actually do the killing with pistols have validated and use the FBI’s criteria for a reason. I’m extremely interested to know how many game animals you’ve taken with the aforementioned defensive calibers? I am also extremely interested in how many gun fights you’ve been involved in with the aforementioned defensive calibers. Yeah Form, Cause if you haven't killed a truck load of critters with a 9mm, or killed at least 5 men (one with each common SD caliber) JWP475 ain't gonna believe you, and I know that will ruin your day. I’m suppressed at you taking the shot at me for asking his experience with the defensive calibers that claims empatheticly perform the same. With the game animals that I have shot with them there is a difference in my experience. If all he is doin* is spouting what he had read or does he have any real world experienc3 to base his emphatic claim on. Is that a problem for you?
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,998 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,998 Likes: 1 |
The FBI has been coming up with wonder loads ranging from 9mm-10mm since the agency was formed; since they have come to the conclusion all do the work of a 45 while allowing more rounds, easier hit repeatability, the next logical step is the adoption of a 25 or 32 (30) caliber service round and weapon that will reasonably extend the same logic. Hell, Ive just read here a 22 lr and a 22 Mag needn't expand, since its pointless under 2,300 fps....
Never mind every time the FBI adopts a cartridge it ISN'T a 45 and when the military actually uses a sidearm en masse it goes back to the 45, since those tasked with actually using a handgun and not merely testing them seem to have an imaginary inclination and preference towards it.
The some really ingnorant thangs being posted in this thread, however I do want to correct a myth that is commonly repeated... Every single military/Fed unit/organization that has a choice, has realistic and consistent high level training, and actually kills people with handguns on the regular have choosen 9mm. EVERY SINGLE ONE. When a couple of those units did use 45’s, it had a lot less to do with the round, and much more to do with the platform- (custom 1911’s). The military units that actually kill people with pistols are very happy with modern 9mm... Just like the FBI. Because when seen in large numbers there just isn’t a noticeable difference between 9mm/40/45 in people. As for the FBI developing new loads/bullets all the time... well I would hope so? Technology changes. All that aside, the military units that actually do the killing with pistols have validated and use the FBI’s criteria for a reason. I’m extremely interested to know how many game animals you’ve taken with the aforementioned defensive calibers? I am also extremely interested in how many gun fights you’ve been involved in with the aforementioned defensive calibers. Yeah Form, Cause if you haven't killed a truck load of critters with a 9mm, or killed at least 5 men (one with each common SD caliber) JWP475 ain't gonna believe you, and I know that will ruin your day. I’m suppressed at you taking the shot at me for asking his experience with the defensive calibers that claims empatheticly perform the same. With the game animals that I have shot with them there is a difference in my experience. If all he is doin* is spouting what he had read or does he have any real world experienc3 to base his emphatic claim on. Is that a problem for you? You have no idea just how stupid you are sounding....
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 889
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 889 |
digressing from the gel topic for a second. a while back, someone posted this video, which I watched: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBqVuXmI5h4&has_verified=1https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRq3dyV2ng4it appeared to me this gent may have possibly been on some type of drug, due to his somewhat erratic behavior. i read a comment made by the officer involved in the shooting wherein he stated that after the guy took several hits and didn't seem to respond, he wondered if the guy was wearing body armor. it was mentioned that he may have taken up to about 10 hits. does anyone know what cartridge the Salt Lake police used here in this specific instance??
all learning is like a funnel:
however, contrary to popular thought, one begins with the the narrow end.
the more you progress, the more it expands into greater discovery--and the less of an audience you will have...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,315 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,315 Likes: 1 |
typical ignore science, cause I am right thinking.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,315 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,315 Likes: 1 |
Son, your entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. You need to try an be a little more mature. Just because you feel strongly about something doesn’t make it right. My judgements are from my own experiences, largely from bullets I have made myself, used on animals I've shot myself. I am pretty confident I can build a handgun bullet that expands to a lower impact velocity and penetrates more than what you can buy or have available to you. I didn't arrive to that conclusion based on heresay or some study with an agenda. As for maturity, maybe when you grow up you can make your own handgun bullets, pit them against manufactured "perfection", shoot your own animals with them and have your own conclusions, instead of pulling up anecdotes you've obviously have no personal experience or effort in..... Poor Logic Hawk, we are not talking about "animals" we are talking about self defense ammunition. Your judgements on shooting through an animal and getting the required penetration are surely spot on as you have experience in that area. OTOH you now want me to make my own bullets and shoot my own animals instead of relying on the thousands of data points compiled by hundreds of studies of actual shootings. You are sounding more like BFR or Gus than your usual self in this discussion. 9mm, 40SW and 45ACP are about the same in performance.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,958
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,958 |
Barnes used to make some brass turned pointed solids...you can take my word for it they don't expand worth a hoot on critters, even at 3,000 fps, but do not admire plate steel.
P.S. I still have some in 224 and 257 caliber...and 30 caliber, if coming to your own conclusions isn't threatening all the science out there.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,958
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,958 |
Son, your entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. You need to try an be a little more mature. Just because you feel strongly about something doesn’t make it right. My judgements are from my own experiences, largely from bullets I have made myself, used on animals I've shot myself. I am pretty confident I can build a handgun bullet that expands to a lower impact velocity and penetrates more than what you can buy or have available to you. I didn't arrive to that conclusion based on heresay or some study with an agenda. As for maturity, maybe when you grow up you can make your own handgun bullets, pit them against manufactured "perfection", shoot your own animals with them and have your own conclusions, instead of pulling up anecdotes you've obviously have no personal experience or effort in..... Poor Logic Hawk, we are not talking about "animals" we are talking about self defense ammunition. Your judgements on shooting through an animal and getting the required penetration are surely spot on as you have experience in that area. OTOH you now want me to make my own bullets and shoot my own animals instead of relying on the thousands of data points compiled by hundreds of studies of actual shootings. You are sounding more like BFR or Gus than your usual self in this discussion. 9mm, 40SW and 45ACP are about the same in performance. Humans aren't animals? Who knew.... Who's sounding like Gus?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,558 Likes: 10
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,558 Likes: 10 |
You Droolers are fhuqking HILARIOUS!
Hint..................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,939 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,939 Likes: 1 |
L
Maybe you aren’t smart enough to understand my point.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,998 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,998 Likes: 1 |
L
Maybe you aren’t smart enough to understand my point. I understand what you think your point is, which is why you are so foolish.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653 |
Every single military/Fed unit/organization that has a choice, has realistic and consistent high level training, and actually kills people with handguns on the regular have choosen 9mm. EVERY SINGLE ONE. When a couple of those units did use 45’s, it had a lot less to do with the round, and much more to do with the platform- (custom 1911’s). The military units that actually kill people with pistols are very happy with modern 9mm... Just like the FBI. Because when seen in large numbers there just isn’t a noticeable difference between 9mm/40/45 in people.
...really...apparently you have no clue how guns and ammo are chosen....and if that is the case why since the Army standardized on the 9mm that my friend's son, who just got promoted to a Major in SF, is still carrying the same Glock 22 in .40 S&W he was issued when he went into SF about 6 years ago... Funny that the guys who really do use a handgun in battle don't choose the 9mm... They may all kill but they don't all kill the same... Bob So you know a guy who knows a guy who carries one pistol because he's the boss and can do whatever he wants.....And that is supposed to prove the general rule wrong? Give me a break.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
|
|
|
|
|
401 members (2500HD, 21, 160user, 22250rem, 01Foreman400, 257 mag, 36 invisible),
2,249
guests, and
1,052
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,192,508
Posts18,490,691
Members73,972
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
