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Both sides will likely agree to disagree far into the future. As part of the dead animal crowd though, I have to say that I see a significant difference on smaller animals between the 9mm and the .45acp too. Whether that extrapolates to self-defense against humans.......can't say. But given the way the data has been put together, I ain't bettin' against it.
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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We can agree to disagree. The dead animal crowd has great credibility however they are not using typical carry gun cartridges. Flat nosed, 1500 FPS 45 caliber 300 grain bullets will shoot thru a lot of meat, and they have little in common with 230 grain 45 caliber hollow points at 950 FPS. If they want to extrapolate from a 454 Casul to a 45ACP that is fine, but no major agency, military, etc etc has stuck with the 45ACP and "on average" there is very little difference between a 9mm and a 45ACP in a self defense situation. No, I have posted about useing both the 9 and the 45ACP on Deer and pigs but you only talk about 454, you apparently can’t comprehend. Yes the 45’s wound channels are larger. The fact is larger wound channels doesn’t mean they are the only adequate choice.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Ranger
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So we agree that 9mm and 45 are both adequate choices.
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So we agree that 9mm and 45 are both adequate choices. Didn’t you assert that the .380 and .44 Mag are roughly equal?
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Campfire Ranger
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In self defense situations there is not a huge difference between the lethality of a .380 and the 44 magnum.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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In self defense situations there is not a huge difference between the lethality of a .380 and the 44 magnum. Now that is pure BS or comedy gold!
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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In self defense situations there is not a huge difference between the lethality of a .380 and the 44 magnum. Lethality against what?
Clinging to guns & religion since 1959
Keyboards make people braver than alcohol
Election Integrity is more important than Election Convenience
Washington Post: "Democracy Dies in Darkness"
More correct: "Killing Democracy Faster Than Darkness"
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Campfire Ranger
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a 380 will kill a man with about the same effectiveness as a 44 magnum, within 20% IIRC for one or the other and you assume room temperature.
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Example a Lehigh monometal flat point non expanding bullet same caliber same weight one fired at 950 FPS the other fired at 1400 FPS the faster bullet will produce more damage.
If that is your experience, I don't doubt you one bit. My question was a bit different: Two .44 caliber bullets, 250 grain and 300 grain, same nose shape, equal meplat diameters, both hard cast and do not expand. Load each to however "hot" you are comfortable with, but each loaded as hot as the other. (Maybe different charge weights, maybe different powders, but each load is equal as far as how hard you are "leaning on the gun." This probably means equal peak chamber pressure.) The lighter bullet will be faster, correct? Assume that on the animal in question, and the angle of the shot, both bullets exit. So depth of penetration is "total." In this case, you will pick the lighter, faster bullet, because it will do more damage, correct? But on a bigger animal, or a situation where you may have to take a poor angle shot, you might choose the heavier, slower bullet to ensure sufficient penetration, correct? Not at all. The lighter bullet might exit before any energy is transmitted to internals,
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In self defense situations there is not a huge difference between the lethality of a .380 and the 44 magnum. Funniest thing I ever heard. Toy guns come with many, many shots because one will make you dead. I do not believe in velocity for more killing power but I believe in bullet performance at the velocity.
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a 380 will kill a man with about the same effectiveness as a 44 magnum, within 20% IIRC for one or the other and you assume room temperature. I don't know where you get the "within 20% figure", but accepting it for now, 20% seems a significant difference to me. I believe a .380 will kill a small animal, e.g. rabbit, as well as a .44 Magnum. At some point, it is hard to tell the difference between sufficiently lethal and exceedingly sufficiently lethal. But whitetail deer and people are about the same size. Granted, deer are stronger and "tougher" for their weight, but they are not much differently constructed around the heart/lung area. Would you just as soon hunt deer with a .380 as with a .44 Magnum?
Clinging to guns & religion since 1959
Keyboards make people braver than alcohol
Election Integrity is more important than Election Convenience
Washington Post: "Democracy Dies in Darkness"
More correct: "Killing Democracy Faster Than Darkness"
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Joined: Oct 2011
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Example a Lehigh monometal flat point non expanding bullet same caliber same weight one fired at 950 FPS the other fired at 1400 FPS the faster bullet will produce more damage.
If that is your experience, I don't doubt you one bit. My question was a bit different: Two .44 caliber bullets, 250 grain and 300 grain, same nose shape, equal meplat diameters, both hard cast and do not expand. Load each to however "hot" you are comfortable with, but each loaded as hot as the other. (Maybe different charge weights, maybe different powders, but each load is equal as far as how hard you are "leaning on the gun." This probably means equal peak chamber pressure.) The lighter bullet will be faster, correct? Assume that on the animal in question, and the angle of the shot, both bullets exit. So depth of penetration is "total." In this case, you will pick the lighter, faster bullet, because it will do more damage, correct? But on a bigger animal, or a situation where you may have to take a poor angle shot, you might choose the heavier, slower bullet to ensure sufficient penetration, correct? Not at all. The lighter bullet might exit before any energy is transmitted to internals, Please explain. Are you saying that if the bullet goes through fast enough, there is less time for energy to be transmitted to the internal organs?
Clinging to guns & religion since 1959
Keyboards make people braver than alcohol
Election Integrity is more important than Election Convenience
Washington Post: "Democracy Dies in Darkness"
More correct: "Killing Democracy Faster Than Darkness"
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Example a Lehigh monometal flat point non expanding bullet same caliber same weight one fired at 950 FPS the other fired at 1400 FPS the faster bullet will produce more damage.
If that is your experience, I don't doubt you one bit. My question was a bit different: Two .44 caliber bullets, 250 grain and 300 grain, same nose shape, equal meplat diameters, both hard cast and do not expand. Load each to however "hot" you are comfortable with, but each loaded as hot as the other. (Maybe different charge weights, maybe different powders, but each load is equal as far as how hard you are "leaning on the gun." This probably means equal peak chamber pressure.) The lighter bullet will be faster, correct? Assume that on the animal in question, and the angle of the shot, both bullets exit. So depth of penetration is "total." In this case, you will pick the lighter, faster bullet, because it will do more damage, correct? But on a bigger animal, or a situation where you may have to take a poor angle shot, you might choose the heavier, slower bullet to ensure sufficient penetration, correct? Not at all. The lighter bullet might exit before any energy is transmitted to internals, Please explain. Are you saying that if the bullet goes through fast enough, there is less time for energy to be transmitted to the internal organs? You guessed it. Its coming, always has. Its the stupidest idea ever, but he is gonna bring it. Best part is its based in his experience of basically shooting nothing but a few deer. Bfrshooter never fails!
Last edited by Tradmark; 06/17/19.
Actually doing something usually changes a persons previously worthless opinion
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The problem with his so called experience is he doesn’t consider the size of the wound channel just which one went down faster. Since all animals give it up differently this is not a valid observation
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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a 380 will kill a man with about the same effectiveness as a 44 magnum, within 20% IIRC for one or the other and you assume room temperature. I don't know where you get the "within 20% figure", but accepting it for now, 20% seems a significant difference to me. I believe a .380 will kill a small animal, e.g. rabbit, as well as a .44 Magnum. At some point, it is hard to tell the difference between sufficiently lethal and exceedingly sufficiently lethal. But whitetail deer and people are about the same size. Granted, deer are stronger and "tougher" for their weight, but they are not much differently constructed around the heart/lung area. Would you just as soon hunt deer with a .380 as with a .44 Magnum? a 380 will kill a man with about the same effectiveness as a 44 magnum, within 20% IIRC for one or the other and you assume room temperature. I don't know where you get the "within 20% figure", but accepting it for now, 20% seems a significant difference to me. I believe a .380 will kill a small animal, e.g. rabbit, as well as a .44 Magnum. At some point, it is hard to tell the difference between sufficiently lethal and exceedingly sufficiently lethal. But whitetail deer and people are about the same size. Granted, deer are stronger and "tougher" for their weight, but they are not much differently constructed around the heart/lung area. Would you just as soon hunt deer with a .380 as with a .44 Magnum? Anyone that has ever shot a deer with a Remington 240 SJHP know the silliness of Jimmyp’s quote the size of the wound has to be seen to be believed, no service pistol rounds can equal the damage of a 44 mag
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,913
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Example a Lehigh monometal flat point non expanding bullet same caliber same weight one fired at 950 FPS the other fired at 1400 FPS the faster bullet will produce more damage.
If that is your experience, I don't doubt you one bit. My question was a bit different: Two .44 caliber bullets, 250 grain and 300 grain, same nose shape, equal meplat diameters, both hard cast and do not expand. Load each to however "hot" you are comfortable with, but each loaded as hot as the other. (Maybe different charge weights, maybe different powders, but each load is equal as far as how hard you are "leaning on the gun." This probably means equal peak chamber pressure.) The lighter bullet will be faster, correct? Assume that on the animal in question, and the angle of the shot, both bullets exit. So depth of penetration is "total." In this case, you will pick the lighter, faster bullet, because it will do more damage, correct? But on a bigger animal, or a situation where you may have to take a poor angle shot, you might choose the heavier, slower bullet to ensure sufficient penetration, correct? Not at all. The lighter bullet might exit before any energy is transmitted to internals, Please explain. Are you saying that if the bullet goes through fast enough, there is less time for energy to be transmitted to the internal organs? A bucket strike is an inelastic collision and only a small amount of untraceable energy is transferred, faster also means increases momentum with is always transferred.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,676
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Posts: 1,676 |
Example a Lehigh monometal flat point non expanding bullet same caliber same weight one fired at 950 FPS the other fired at 1400 FPS the faster bullet will produce more damage.
If that is your experience, I don't doubt you one bit. My question was a bit different: Two .44 caliber bullets, 250 grain and 300 grain, same nose shape, equal meplat diameters, both hard cast and do not expand. Load each to however "hot" you are comfortable with, but each loaded as hot as the other. (Maybe different charge weights, maybe different powders, but each load is equal as far as how hard you are "leaning on the gun." This probably means equal peak chamber pressure.) The lighter bullet will be faster, correct? Assume that on the animal in question, and the angle of the shot, both bullets exit. So depth of penetration is "total." In this case, you will pick the lighter, faster bullet, because it will do more damage, correct? But on a bigger animal, or a situation where you may have to take a poor angle shot, you might choose the heavier, slower bullet to ensure sufficient penetration, correct? Not at all. The lighter bullet might exit before any energy is transmitted to internals, Please explain. Are you saying that if the bullet goes through fast enough, there is less time for energy to be transmitted to the internal organs? Yes, deer shot with my .45 Colt and a 335 gr bullet at 1160 FPS will drop deer fast and so will my C&B Ruger Old Army with a RB at 1100 fps. But the 45-70 revolver with the same weight bullet will lose deer and recovered will be 200 to 300 yards. No dwell time to transmit energy. Too fast or too heavy a bullet will not do the damage. The .44 has lost no deer. To believe speed kills better you must have a bullet to match. It is always the bullet in the end. You can lose deer with the .44 by shooting the wrong bullets too. A 180 as fast as it can go is a sad sack but a slower 300 is deadly. I am a firm believer in Dwell time or a slowing bullet to give energy with enough weight to penetrate.
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Rabid Creedmoorians ring my doorbell ...
as I open it a crack they speak :
"Do you have a moment to talk about our Lord and Savior , 6.5Creed?"
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It might sound strange but a RB from a ML will kill better then any modern gun. Step up to the Minie' and destruction is massive. I have well over 200 deer kills with a flint lock .45. Would you hunt elk with a 300 Weatherby and 110 gr bullets or choose a 220 gr?
It is repeated over and over a larger meplat on a revolver kills better. Not true since velocity matters. Too fast and the pressure wave from the meplat moves tissue away in a secondary wound channel. The channel will collapse without damage. So you say to speed it up or make the meplat larger. Actually you need to slow it down.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Man, I'm glad I swallowed my coffee before reading that!
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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