Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire For Christians,non-Christians & Atheists

[i]

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by Thunderstick

Originally Posted by Starman

Originally Posted by Thunderstick

Disputing the evidence for the resurrection of Christ is equal to trying to dispute that the American Revolution actually occurred.
We all "believe" it occurred on the basis of evidence.

Initially you claimed it as FACT, now you say its merely based on evidence.

Evidence does not necessarily amount to Proof or established Fact,
and that can be seen in courtrooms across the land on a regular basis.

Originally Posted by Thunderstick

.. In your belief system you choose unbelief--yes a belief system that is based on faith in your own
rational conclusions on what to doubt with a high degree of certainty.

I rely on a lack of proof being provided by christians , and because of such lack , also the absence of establishedFact.

no proof = no established fact.

How are the facts of history established? Are they not based on the laws of evidence? No evidence equals no facts--good evidence establishes the facts. This is not a novel idea.
Webster--Definition of evidence
1a : an outward sign : INDICATION
b : something that furnishes proof : TESTIMONY

In summary the resurrection of Jesus is a fact of history that is established on the basis of good evidence. The denial of the resurrection is not based on good evidence, and therefore is not a factual conclusion, but rather represents a prejudice against the facts.

Testimony alone is not necessarily evidence. The person giving an account of an event may be mistaken, deluded, lying, etc, which is why verifiable evidence is necessary.

We don't have verifiable evidence in the bible. We have what anonymous authors, copying from older material and word of mouth transmission, tell us.

I post the following [i]without permission from either poster.

24hourcampfire.com

Originally Posted By antlers
If ones personal faith and belief in The Messiah is threatened by what others say or believe, or by what ancient manuscripts contain...then maybe the problem isn't with what others say or believe, or with what ancient manuscripts contain.

Answered by Doc Rocket

Well, you're kind of right about this, on a basic level.

However, it appears you are not up to speed on the history surrounding the Canon of New Testament scripture, nor the Judeo-Christian tradition of debate over minutiae! Don't worry, you're not alone. I doubt that 1 Christian in 10 in the USA knows even the basic history of the First Century Church. Nonbelievers, maybe 1 in 1000.

The first thing, i.e., why are we Christians so quick to argue about What others say and believe about the Christian faith, is because what we ALL say about our faith matters to EVERY Christian believer. The traditions of Judaism, outlined in the Torah and multiple rabbinical texts, argue that discussion of every new viewpoint on Scripture is not just desirable, but a mandatory exercise in the Jewish religion. And Christianity, which is nothing more nor less than the fulfillment of the Jewish religion in the person, life works, and teachings of Jesus, has followed that tradition for millennia.

So that's why we argue about it. It's our tradition. If you don't like our tradition, butt out and go take care of your own traditions. I'm not being mean or angry here, I'm just sayin'.

The second thing: why does every new "ancient" text or artifact that pops up stir up immediate opposition by so many Christians? Well, it's because our faith is founded on a very carefully selected set of writings from the first century A.D. While some non-Christians (i.e., outsiders who don't "get" our traditions) may take delight in promoting "new" texts that appear to contradict the Canon of Scripture--because they're mostly ch!tt-disturbers, in my experience--these texts are almost always the same old crap that's been popping up since the 2nd or 3rd century, and which has been cataloged in the Pulp Fiction aisle of the theological library for the better part of 2000 years.

99% of Christians are largely ignorant of the history of the early Church, from the time of the Acts of the Apostles to the Fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. This was a time of enormous expansion of the Church, but the very cool part about it was that while the number of Christians exploded over the course of a few decades, the geographic expansion was very small. This meant that pretty much EVERYone knew somebody who actually knew, was taught by, and witnessed the miracles of Jesus. And the Jews, who comprised the early majority of Christians, were/are real sticklers for THE TRUTH.

This means nobody could bullsh!t about the Gospel of Christ. Posers were recognized and cast out immediately. You couldn't hide behind an internet handle in those days. You were either the real deal, or you got stoned to death. Sometimes you even got stoned to death if you WERE the real deal, so being a poser wasn't exactly a high-paying gig, you know what I'm saying? Oh, and keep in mind that in the First Century it wasn't like today, when any schmoe can write a book and publish it online... if you wrote a book then, the only way it got published was if other people agreed that it was really good stuff, and copied it out by hand for other folks to read.

So the people who actually wrote down the life, words, teachings, and miracles of Jesus were guys who actually knew him. If someone didn't really know him and TELL THE TRUTH as it was known by hundreds of first-hand witnesses, their scribblings would've been ignored. If not burned and the author stoned to death. By the early 2nd Century, the de facto Canon of Scripture we know as the New Testament had been pretty much agreed upon by the vast majority of Church leaders and scholars, based on a very tight-knit history they all shared.

Mark wrote his Gospel first, probably within about 20 years of Jesus' death and resurrection. John's gospel was probably written within a few years of the Fall of Jerusalem, Matthew and Luke somewhere in between. Lots of other folks wrote down their memories of the events, too, but for the most part these were ignored by the Church because the majority of the Churches thought they were incomplete, contained too many untruths, or were flawed in other ways. The four main Gospels were endorsed and widely circulated as a result.

Now, there were some dissenters (as there always are in human affairs) and they started up their own versions of church that were anywhere from slightly wonky to batsh!t-crazy. And by the early 3rd Century, enough of these outliers existed that the orthodox Church had no choice but to lay down the law--in keeping with ancient Judeo-Christian traditions of heterodoxy--and they held a series of councils in which the majority of Christian leaders and scholars said what was the truest material in keeping with the historical writings of Church Fathers. All of batsh!t-crazy gospels were ch!tt-canned at that time, but all manner of non-believers keep bringing them up as "proof" against the Christian religion.

So that's why we care about somebody resurrecting (pun intended) some piece of batsh!t-crazy "Christian" writing from the 6th Century. Our forefathers worked really, really hard to clean up the true story about Jesus for us. They paid for it with their blood and their very lives, and we owe them a debt for that.

And that's why we tend to be derisive and dismissive about "ancient" texts that get "discovered" that were written at least 500 years after the Biblical texts we endorse. It's part of our tradition.

People who aren't Bible-believing Christians can say and think what they like for themselves, but they can't expect us not to defend our religion, our tradition, our history is something precious to us, and we don't care to have fools who are ignorant of our tradition and our history to pass off their ignorance as valid opinion.


[/i][/i]

No, this has nothing to do with me or 'my idea' - I am merely pointing out the contradictions between verses that clearly state that God is love, that Love is not jealous and verses that portray a vicious jealous God.

Once again....please take note of the attributes of a God of Love as described in the Bible as opposed to descriptions of a jealous vindictive God. The contradiction is undeniable. It is not something I am claiming, it is there in the bible;


"God is love." - 1 John 4:8
"Love is not jealous." - 1 Corinthians 13:4
"God is jealous." - Exodus 20:5


1 Corinthians 13; Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.''

1 John 4:7-8; Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

As opposed to

Exodus 20:55 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" (Amos
3:6, KJV)

"Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? "
(Lamentations 3:38)

The Lord is a man of war, Exodus 15:3.

"The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, He shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: He shall cry, yea roar; He shall prevail against His enemies". Isaiah 42:13

No such thing was shown. Assertion is not the same thing as a valid argument.


If God is good to all and His tender mercy is all over Creation, God cannot be said to be vindictive or cruel.

The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. << Psalm 145:9 >>

As opposed to;


Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" (Amos
3:6, KJV)

After 4 examples of Bible contradictions that you cannot resolve...I am still waiting for your response to the contradictions between God in the Old and God in the New Testament. To me, that is the biggest one of all.
Moses:
DEUTERONOMY 2:34 At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed them – men, women and children. We left no survivors.
DEUTERONOMY 3:6 We completely destroyed them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city – men, women and children.

Meanwhile here is another contradiction
Incest
“Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of this mother…” — Deuteronomy 27:22
“And if a man shall take his sister, his father’s daughter, or his mother’s daughter…it is a wicked thing….” — Leviticus 20:17

[But what was god’s reaction to Abraham, who married his sister — his father’s daughter?] See Genesis 20:11-12
“And God said unto Abraham, As for Sara thy wife…I bless her, and give thee a son also of her…” — Genesis 17:15-16

There seems to be an unwillingness to acknowledge that there are contradictions in the bible. Which, given the nature of faith, is understandable.

It's not only the bible, of course.

the same video I posted earlier which has 50,000 + views or eye witnesses? to a bird being 'resurrected'
would any jury or judge buy it? ...Do you consider it a hoax?.....How much evidence do you need to 'believe' what you see..?

nOw if you don't believe such video evidence is that of a resurrection , would you believe peoples written or verbal testimonies of same?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxQc3HbHJ88




Don't forget the range and quality of testimony that required to convince a court

a bunch of largely illiterate superstitious long dead no name peasants questionable reputation testimony without affidavit or deposition
are not the same as A range of living persons and/or expert testimonies and forensic testimony present in court under oath and subject
to cross examination.

wishful hypothetical?...come and talk when you can cite real world nitty-gritty case law on the subject.




do you stick by your sweeping statement?

Collins Dictionary;
"If someone makes a sweeping statement or generalization, they make a statement which applies to all things of a particular kind,
although they have not considered all the relevant facts carefully."

Bowsinger,

Wish I had the time to delve more into some of your questions but I just don’t,

But, let me say a couple of things about supposed contradictions in the Bible. Many will see a “contradiction” and stumble or get stuck on it. This has happened to me where I read or see something that appears contradictory or something I simply don’t understand. Takes me time to resolve the issue or time and study to sometimes even understand the issue. The “law” had been an issue for me for years and it took me a long time to get what is now a better understanding of it. Anyway...

The example in your post Sarah and the sister thing is easy for me to understand. Sarah seems to be Abraham’s half sister or maybe at most a granddaughter of Abraham’s father. But, the law against such was not given till much later, well after his death. The same sort of thing if one thinks about who the children of Adam and Eve married. Had to be their siblings. This is another subject.

Anyway, the point is, that if one has only limited knowledge or experience in Biblical issues, one can find issues that they do not understand and then believe this “unresolved” question is a biblical error or contradiction.

When many of the supposed contradictions come up, the echo chamber effect can be there. If one only looks for answers to questions on atheistic internet sites they are simply hollering into that echo chamber and receive nothing back but their own bias.

You may consider reviewing sites devoted to Christian apologetics if you want to get out of the echo chamber.

And yes, Christians have echo chamber issues. All people do. Consider the political echo chamber sites that proliferate on the internet.

Its really beyond the scope of an internet posting to get all this across but I'm only on my second cup of coffee and I'll try.

In Genesis 15, God made his covenant with Abraham. It says "Abraham believed God and it was "CREDITED" to him for righteousness". Did not say he was righteous but that he received it "on credit". You also have to consider that the Mosaic law against incest which you quote from Leviticus and Deuteronomy was not given until 400 plus years after Abraham. Paul teaches in Romans that "without law there is no knowledge of sin".....so the reality is that Abe did not know he was not supposed to marry his sister. The sin was there but until the law, God did not "impute" it except in cases where it threatened the existence of our species.......examples the flood and Sodom.

Back to the Covenant in Genesis 15. This would establish the nation of Israel from which the Messiah would eventually come. In ancient Bedouin culture the blood covenant was the most serious form of agreement there was. Breaking it meant the death of the offending party and perhaps his family as well. God used this practice to convince Abraham, on his level, that his word was good. They took some large animals, killed them, cut them in half and laid the halves opposite of each other making a "walkway" between them.....a bloody mess. They would stand in this walkway and swear oaths to one another with the implication being if they were broken, what happened to the animals would happen to them. In this way God essentially wedded himself to Abraham and subsequently the Jewish people. In making covenant with another family or party one of the aspects in those days was "your enemies are my enemies and everything I have is yours". In this way, the people who came against ancient Israel put themselves in the position of being the enemies of the almighty and were in a world of hurt as God had sworn in blood to protect and defend his people.

All of this of course was a huge process played out over centuries in which the ultimate goal was to get Jesus into the earth and accomplish the redemtion of man. Currently we are in the era of the Gospel. When that era ends at the second coming, Jesus ain't gonna be so "gentle" to the enemies of God.

24 pages and not a single fact to prove there is a "god". Only the bible said this and that. It seems that once you are brainwashed into believing there is a god what you believe and fictional books become facts. Can't believers just say I believe in god but have no proof ? Will this stimulate 24 more pages of no facts?

[quote=rimfire]24 pages and not a single fact to prove there is a "god". Only the bible said this and that. It seems that once you are brainwashed into believing there is a god what you believe and fictional books become facts. Can't believers just say I believe in god but have no proof ? Will this stimulate 24 more pages of no facts? [/quote

Hmm.... lot of evidence and testimony, but as usual, you are free to make your own choices and come to your own conclusions about God.

I will step in it one more time. What YOU think or believe about God does not change Him. How God views you is paramount. If you choose to stay in unbelief and do not place any regard on the evidence you see, then so be it.

You are making a choice.


Have at it bud.....

TF49 Thanks for proving my point. I'm sure you don't even realize it.

Not a problem with me. I agree with you. There is evidence and there is testimony. You will not have proof until you seek it and the Holy Spirit provides it.

Don’t Seek is usually equal to Don’t Get.

I am afraid that if one persists in demanding that God “prove Himself to me” on that one’s own terms, that that one will never see any proof.

Same with this idea that folks on this forum “did not offer proof nor sufficient evidence.” This is not a good excuse for “not finding.”

Further to the proof point. There is proof of God. I explained this previously.

An honest seeker seeks and God responds to that individual with proof..... from God, directly to the honest seeker.

The one who says that Jesus followers just follow blindly without evidence of the reality of God simply have not experienced God. They are totally wrong about the “non-existence” of proof but..... they just can’t see it.

If you don't mind would you tell us how information is generated and how it is contained in the DNA molecule?

Don't appeal to panspermia. That only generates the next question, "Where did that come from?"

If the Earth turned into a desolate wasteland like Mars, would it still exist?

No facts have been offered yet. I guess believers have no concept of facts vs. opinion. This post will be replied to with more opinions presented as fact. Also please understand I don't care if a person "believes" that is their right,its just not a fact. If you were debating a muzzy who was quoting the koran and saying mohommad was the one true profit you would be able to see the flaws in his argument. When you do the same thing using the bible and jesus you can't see it. That is where the brainwashing comes in.

Well, I’ll try one last time..... last, for which many of us will the thankful.....

You totally wrong when you allege that believers have no concept of facts vs opinion. You have either not understood my posts or you are simply rejecting them out of hand. IDK, it is up to you.

There is no brainwashing of Jesus’ followers into believing a lie. Just the reverse.

Anyway..... The big lie is that “God” does not exist and even if a God is there, He is not relevant and can safely be ignored.

The “brainwashing”is indeed out there I the world and you present as being a victim of that.

Your brain is washed out. If you are a hunter or get out in nature much, every bit of it is a testimony to God.You obviously don't see it as such, but it's not the only one. Such testimonies to a Creator are found everywhere, That you can't see them is only because you refuse to. I see them continually. I have no time for arguments with fools, which the Bible says are those who refuse to believe the obvious: God. Enjoy your life as much as you can. Death will be Hell.

God says this god says that are you kidding. CANT YOU COME UP WITH A FACT and not a belief? I believe there is other life in the Universe, but have no facts to back it up. Therefore I will not claim it to be a fact. god believers are incapable of logical thought in regards to religion. To much fear instilled in them that they will go to hell. Fear is one of the main tools of a good brainwashing. Did you get you brainwashing when you were young, or during a time in your life when you were down and out? While this may sound offensive I don't mean it to be. Don't worry about offending me I have a thick skin and enjoy the banter, hope you do to. If you are a liberal commie. demacrap then we would have problems. MAGA