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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 20,683
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 20,683 |
Sorry for those of you that lost friends or family
I'm pretty certain when we sing our anthem and mention the land of the free, the original intent didn't mean cell phones, food stamps and birth control.
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 14,195
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 14,195 |
A missile brought down that airplane. FBI cover up.
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,176
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,176 |
"sitting in an empty tank in fuel vapors"
There are no fuel vapors in an empty 747 fuel tank. Jet fuel (diesel) has to be mechanically vaporized before it will ignite just like in a diesel engine . You can put out a lit match in a bucket of diesel (jet fuel).
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,607
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,607 |
I'm betting the kooks here that believe the "conspiracy" probably voted for Perot....
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 15,816
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 15,816 |
There is almost nothing LESS reliable than "eyewitness reports." As a person who spent years as a criminal investigator, (death investigations, crash investigations, financial crimes, sex crimes, crimes against children, narcotics, etc) I can wholeheartedly attest to this fact. Plus the instant people talk to each other, their minds begin to fill in gaps with things that don't make sense, and those things then become "Facts" to them, most of which never actually happened.
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL. The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world. The website is up and running!www.lostriverammocompany.com
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 17,133
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 17,133 |
"sitting in an empty tank in fuel vapors"
There are no fuel vapors in an empty 747 fuel tank. Jet fuel (diesel) has to be mechanically vaporized before it will ignite just like in a diesel engine . You can put out a lit match in a bucket of diesel (jet fuel). With the a/c pacs under the center fuel tank and 50 gallons of Jet A fuel (which is essential kerosene with a flashpoint of 100 degrees F and not diesel with a flashpoint 20% higher) and a delay on the ground in July in NY there is certainly enough vapor that any minor ignition source would be enough to create a fuel-air explosion sufficient to be a cause. I'll put my Naval Aviation Safety school mishap investigation subspecialty up as a cite that I'm actually qualified to support that opinion. Your credentials? I'll be kind here and assume the Dunning Kruger affect is at work on your opinion.
If something on the internet makes you angry the odds are you're being manipulated
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,607
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,607 |
the Dunning Kruger affect is at work on your opinion.
Ziiing! (I'm betting the "fringe" is overloading the Google search engine.....
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,097
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,097 |
Followed a path similar to Pugs with safety/investigation training and echo the thoughts about eyewitness players. This view comes from having sifted thru more rubble that I care to recount and involved many fatalities.
Accidents involve a trail of events in almost every case, often not obvious to the lay perspective. I have no objections to the NTSB findings of probable cause and one serious thought about the missile theory. AA missiles don't have enough power to separate the nose section of a 747, and I have problems trying to figure why one would target the primary structure aspect in this case. The aircraft was not at high altitude when the explosion occurred.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,073
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,073 |
Most fuels burn at a very narrow ratio of fuel to air...one half percent to about five percent on jet fuel. Of course the rest is O2.
Basically in my experience fires and explosions are rare.
Think about what I’m saying. You have a tank that is all O2 with liquid and no fumes. If you then heat the tank the fumes increase until they reachThe LEL which at least a half percent. If they go beyond 5 percent it’s to rich to burn.
Now I guess you could picture a situation where the right ratio of fuel and air just happened to be sloshing around in a tank.
Now we need an ignition source.
Most dangerous time in dealing with any tank or vessel that contains a flammable liquid is when the contents are in the explosion range.
The fire triangle only needs one leg missing for the explosion not to happen. Hasbeen
hasbeen
(Better a has been than a never was!)
NRA Patron member
Try to live your life where the preacher doesn't have to lie at your funeral
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 27,091
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 27,091 |
Google believes in conspiracies.
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 32,074
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 32,074 |
My father flew the very 747 that blew up when he was a TWA captain. He lost several friends on TWA 800, including a husband and wife flight attendant couple that were at his house for dinner the night before they lost their lives. The flight engineer, a retired captain who had re-upped (and lost his life), was his closest work friend. Oddly, my dad was a non-rev passenger on 800 the week before it went down.
Talking with him over the years about it I can tell he’s conflicted about the official FAA version of events. Like me, he’s no conspiracy adherent, but there’s a lot of loose ends that don’t add up. The Vietnam chopper pilot’s testimony is the hardest to ignore. Also, the high-speed signature on the sea departing the area is troubling, as is the fact El-Al’s Tel-Aviv bound 747 was right behind 800.
Could be the FAA is correct... but might not be. I’m inclined to believe the FAA. Not necessarily the same plane was used on all 800 flights. In fact, almost guaranteed multiple planes were used over time on that flight number. Don't confuse the flight number with the plane number.
Last edited by las; 07/10/19.
The only true cost of having a dog is its death.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 21,810
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 21,810 |
It was a 25 year old jet with 93,000 flight hours that had a catastrophic failure. And, as the post-explosion review showed, Boeing routed electrical lines through a fuel tank. The investigation found the probable cause of the incident was the explosion of flammable fuel vapors in the center fuel tank. as teh tank emptied, fuel vapors were ignited by a short circuit in the wires in the tank. Problems with the aircraft's wiring were found, including evidence of arcing in the fuel level sensor wiring that enters the tank.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 21,810
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 21,810 |
Our government can't keep any secrets yet these conspiracy theorists keep coming up with ones that depend on hundreds or thousands never saying a word. You mean that man actually walked on the moon? 
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,607
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,607 |
My father flew the very 747 that blew up when he was a TWA captain. He lost several friends on TWA 800, including a husband and wife flight attendant couple that were at his house for dinner the night before they lost their lives. The flight engineer, a retired captain who had re-upped (and lost his life), was his closest work friend. Oddly, my dad was a non-rev passenger on 800 the week before it went down.
Talking with him over the years about it I can tell he’s conflicted about the official FAA version of events. Like me, he’s no conspiracy adherent, but there’s a lot of loose ends that don’t add up. The Vietnam chopper pilot’s testimony is the hardest to ignore. Also, the high-speed signature on the sea departing the area is troubling, as is the fact El-Al’s Tel-Aviv bound 747 was right behind 800.
Could be the FAA is correct... but might not be. I’m inclined to believe the FAA. Not necessarily the same plane was used on all 800 flights. In fact, almost guaranteed multiple planes were used over time on that flight number. Don't confuse the flight number with the plane number. That's not what he said. He was referring to the aircraft's registration number and not the flight. geez...
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 28,172
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 28,172 |
the Dunning Kruger effect is at work on your opinion.
There...fixed...
Hunt with Class and Classics
Religion: A founder of The Church of Spray and Pray
Acquit v. t. To render a judgment in a murder case in San Francisco... EQUAL, adj. As bad as something else. Ambrose Bierce “The Devil's Dictionary”
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 15,856
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 15,856 |
"sitting in an empty tank in fuel vapors"
There are no fuel vapors in an empty 747 fuel tank. Jet fuel (diesel) has to be mechanically vaporized before it will ignite just like in a diesel engine . You can put out a lit match in a bucket of diesel (jet fuel). Bullschidt... Tell that to the five people who got killed at Grand Forks when a fuel transfer valve motor overheated in a B-52 and it blew up on the ramp. There was also another buff that blew up on the ground at Minot due to a fuel pump overheating in an empty tank. Two crewchiefs perished in that explosion.
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,176
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,176 |
"I'll be kind here and assume the Dunning Kruger affect is at work on your opinion."
I don't know that the Dunning Krueger affect is but I'm sure it's an insult. I don't have any credentials concerning jet fuels. I had a friend who was an Air Force vet who told me that when he put in hand in JP5 it would evaporate immediately when he pulled his hand out. He was full of crap about a lot of stuff. I did just look up JP5 and it's a "dry" fuel made from kerosene with a higher flash point that the military uses or has used. I was told you could put a lit match out in kerosene and diesel and found out that you can on a very 100+ day. On a cold day diesel or kerosene is very hard to light with a match. Never had access to any jet fuel.
Last edited by victoro; 07/10/19.
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,073
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,073 |
"sitting in an empty tank in fuel vapors"
There are no fuel vapors in an empty 747 fuel tank. Jet fuel (diesel) has to be mechanically vaporized before it will ignite just like in a diesel engine . You can put out a lit match in a bucket of diesel (jet fuel). Bullschidt... Tell that to the five people who got killed at Grand Forks when a fuel transfer valve motor overheated in a B-52 and it blew up on the ramp. There was also another buff that blew up on the ground at Minot due to a fuel pump overheating in an empty tank. Two crewchiefs perished in that explosion. You said the key word . Heat. You heat up a flammable liquid and you create vapors. When the vapors reach the LEL you have elephant phart. (Ignition) Hasbeen
hasbeen
(Better a has been than a never was!)
NRA Patron member
Try to live your life where the preacher doesn't have to lie at your funeral
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,073
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,073 |
Forget to mention. You need a ignition source. Hasbeen
hasbeen
(Better a has been than a never was!)
NRA Patron member
Try to live your life where the preacher doesn't have to lie at your funeral
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,607
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,607 |
"I'll be kind here and assume the Dunning Kruger affect is at work on your opinion."
JP5 and it's a "dry" fuel made from kerosene with a higher flash point that the military uses or has used.. I have plenty of experience with jet fuel: The military DID use JP-5. When I was in the Air Force used JP-4 and we (navy) used JP5 because it had a higher flashpoint (handy when aboard ship). By the time I retired, we were all using JP-8.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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