I shoot various types of M855 a fair bit in my ARs, and typically it will hold around 2" or so at 100 yards. Here's an example what I typically see. This is some PMC XTAC 62gr LAP, center target.
So recently I picked up some of those Federal American Eagle from Midway, the 120-round plastic box that resembles a small ammo can. This stuff is absolute dog-s h I t. It was so bad I initially thought my optic had puked, but shooting some handloads proved the glass was OK.
Here are two 10-shot groups at 100 yards, with two separate ARs that shoot generally well. The 16" HBar, floated, with a 1-6x24 with ACSS reticle, and the other is my new BCM 14.5" SOCOM upper, not floated, with a 5X prism with the ACSS reticle. Both shot from the bench.
The 16" HBar put 9 shots into 5 inches, one shot missed paper.
The 14.5" BCM put 10 shots into 4 inches.
I have to think this 'M855' must be loaded with bullets that failed QC or something. Anyway, just a heads-up.
Here's an article I found where different M855 is compared for velocity/accuracy. It's definitely not all the same. In this test, S&B and PMC came out ahead of the rest.
I'm curious as to the draw of green tip ammo though.
It doesn't seem particularly accurate. And it's not a hunting bullet per se... And anytime I engage someone with deadly force, I would probably want an expanding bullet.
Is it the steel core ?? That sounds typical for the steel core ammo. It was all about being environmentally safe since it did not have lead in it.
kwg
For liberals and anarchists, power and control is opium, selling envy is the fastest and easiest way to get it. TRR. American conservative. Never trust a white liberal. Malcom X Current NRA member.
Try some of the IMI Israeli stuff. Its accurate . Their 67 gr razor core load is accurate also.
Kwg020 855 has a tungsten penetrator inside the tip of the bullet jacket. Shaped like a tiny ice cream cone. The rest of the jacket of the bullet is lead filled. Not a bimetal jacket round with an actual steel core like the Soviet 5.45x 39 7n6. If you cut the 855 about 1/4th" to 3/8ths" from the tip you can remove the penetrator. Some nato countries use hard steel insted for the penetrator.
855 was designed as" humane" stable round for fast twist due to nato crap...
Much of the "killing and wounding" power of the m16 series of rifles has been neutered due to heavier bullets and faster twist rates and bullet design.
The AM EAGLE 855 120 and 150 plastic box stuff is grade 2 and 3 mostly 3. It is 2 moa stuff even in grade 1.
IIRC it has powder weight variance of + or - 2grs on the start of and end of runs on lots. So you could have that amount of variance in powder charge in a lot run alone from start to finish.
Then throw into it am eagle is grade 2 and 3 stuff from various runs And sold to the civilian market even though it is LC ammo. Kinda like a box of chocolates espically with the 120 and 150 plastic boxes they can be a mix of various lots of mixed grade 2 and 3 stuff.
The 420 cans are the same lot number and grade 2 ammo. That have been " rejected " for some reason... Usually cosmetic issues or low end powder charge.
I'm curious as to the draw of green tip ammo though.
It doesn't seem particularly accurate. And it's not a hunting bullet per se... And anytime I engage someone with deadly force, I would probably want an expanding bullet.
I like it because it's reasonably priced, and has a higher BC than the 55gr FMJ. Since I have a lot of opportunity to shoot past 500, I lean toward the M855 for the 'blasting ammo'.
If things go sideways, it's still ammo. Jack of all trades compromise round. No cool factor, but still nobody wants to get hit in the vitals with it.
I have tested dozens of lot #’s of military issued M855 “green tip”. Issued green tip averages between 4.5 and 6 MOA for ten round groups. The two most accurate lots of M855 I have seen has been TAA, and they averaged just over 3 MOA. Spec is 6.8 MOA Mean Radious.
The FBI’s ballistic research facility, Navel Crane, and Picatinny all have found the same.
Originally Posted by renegade50
Try some of the IMI Israeli stuff. Its accurate . Their 67 gr razor core load is accurate also.
Kwg020 855 has a tungsten penetrator inside the tip of the bullet jacket. Shaped like a tiny ice cream cone. The rest of the jacket of the bullet is lead filled. Not a bimetal jacket round with an actual steel core like the Soviet 5.45x 39 7n6. If you cut the 855 about 1/4th" to 3/8ths" from the tip you can remove the penetrator. Some nato countries use hard steel insted for the penetrator.
855 was designed as" humane" stable round for fast twist due to nato crap...
Much of the "killing and wounding" power of the m16 series of rifles has been neutered due to heavier bullets and faster twist rates and bullet design.
To correct quite a bit of this-
No version of M855 has a tungsten penetrator. It is a copper jacketed, lead cored bullet with a mild steel penetrator.
M855 was not designed as a “humane stable round”. It was designed to penetrate a helmet at 600m from a M249 SAW.
The “killing and wounding power” of the M16 has not been neutered by heavier bullets and faster twists. Quite the opposite actually. The most terminally effective military issued 5.56mm round in history is M855A1. A lead free 62gr projectile that requires a faster twist to stabilize.
I can eat humble pie and stand corrected on points
Espeically coming from you Formadilous.
I respect your knowledge and experience. And that is saying something coming from me You are one of the very few on here I can honestly say that about. And I ain't trying to flatter you. We was told it was tungsten penetrators in 86 in Germany when we stated fielding A2,s. I kinda disagree about your moa statement with lc 855 I have shot alot of it also I have never seen downrange feedback on Kd ranges larger than 3 moa at 100 with a good shooter 2 to 2.5 with excellent shooters Average to poor shooters of course it can go up.
Are you basing that 6.8 moa acceptability on average strac standards service wide for accepted min standard of a 50% chance of a hit in a 19 inch circle at 300m? My killing and wounding statement is based on the 193 tumbling and fragmenting and depositing its energy way easier versus the 855 Twist rates also have effect on driving force and stability in straight line and angles with path travel thru on impact. im sure you have ran 193 thru a m4 or a2 in ballistic gel and seen the results. Those are straight line results into ballistic gel though. Unless you have bone in the gel for additional results the test can be misleading. Animal carcass test can yield the differences that cannot be seen in clear gel also. Then throw gear on a body in what takes intial impact. Ballistic gel can be misleading is what I am saying. It is a intial base line that is about it. Personally I have caused and seen the results 1st hand of both rounds on deployments I would not want ta get hit with a 193 round versus a 855 especially on bone. The 193 round will explode and deflect and tumble 855 rd will usually bust thru on its path and not deposit alot of shocking power or deposit all its energy into the enemy and keep on going. shoot someone 3 or 4 times center mass spinal line they die, but not like with 193 that will fragment on bone with 1 or 2 shots in the same spot. I know this 1st hand. Then let's throw this out also I would rather get hit with a 193 rd wearing body armour than an 855 also.
I retired in 08 Was outta the fight in 04. Have no experience with the 855AI But I have heard bad about it from guys I know still in up on Post Heard it fragments to early penetration wise and loses energy fast in a body and still taking 3 to 4 shots to put the enemy down at times. And have also heard "green" reasons drove the pony behind that round.
To be honest soldiers say they hate the 855AI bullet
That is just what I have heard.....
I have always thought a 67 to 72 grain bullet at 2750 to 2800 ish would be much better along the lines of a tipped barnes or Tipped Israeli Razor core. A heavier well constructed expanding round would increase the killing / hitting power of the m4. That is the solution. And to be really honest a 243 platform with 90 gr would be better and the weight difference would be insignificant for same basic load. Jmo.
But ya gotta remember in all of this you have Congress creatures with vested interest in their districts and retired officers and the defense industry involved in all of this. Side note We all heard the stamped mild steel Russian helmet at 600 back in the day also. Not being snarky saying that.
Aside from your points you brought up and I'm sure they are based on hard data .
But a test enviorment versus a real world enviorment and conditions are 2 different things.
Heard alot of stuff in my 24 yrs in the Infantry also I geuss. Heard alot of stuff in ammo67 also I geuss.
I can vouch for the fact that M855 penetrators are steel. I have a cup full of them somewhere on my desk. Pickups from the pits. I believe it's M855A1 that utilizes a tungsten alloy penetrator.
M855 and precision rifle fire are not used in the same sentence very often, but I've participated in the USMC CIAP where issued A2's and issued LC M855 was shot in competition. I can tell you that there were a couple of hard holding Marines that were cleaning the 5-V Baker targets at 500 yards with that combo. That would be a 20" 5 ring, 20 shots, slung up, slow fire prone through the irons, in the wind. Vee counts weren't anything to write home about, but it showed me that if you could find the center of your group, stay ahead of the wind, and execute good marksmanship, you could stay clean on a 4 MOA bull. I'd guess the ammo/gun combo was holding 3 to 3-1/2 MOA for 20 shot strings. These guys spanked some civilian Master Class shooters running 80's at 500 on the same target on a practice day. I was running the line. I'll let ya'll debate what that converts to for 10 shot strings, or if you had the opportunity to scope and bench the M16's. ...but Green Tip ain't super terrible. That said, I'll take Mk262, Mk318 or M855A1 any day given a choice.
Oh yeah, I think Fackler will tell you that M855 at high velocity will bend and fracture at the canneleure and fragment after that. For the number of penetrators and jacket fragments that I found in the pits (from berm shots etc) I would tend to believe it.
I can vouch for the fact that M855 penetrators are steel. I have a cup full of them somewhere on my desk. Pickups from the pits. M855 and precision rifle fire are not used in the same sentence very often, but I've participated in the USMC CIAP where issued A2's and issued LC M855 was shot in competition. I can tell you that there were a couple of hard holding Marines that were cleaning the 5-V Baker targets at 500 yards with that combo. That would be a 20" 5 ring, 20 shots, slung up, slow fire prone through the irons, in the wind. Vee counts weren't anything to write home about, but it showed me that if you could find the center of your group, stay ahead of the wind, and execute good marksmanship, you could stay clean on a 4 MOA bull. I'd guess the ammo/gun combo was holding 3 to 3-1/2 MOA for 20 shot strings. These guys spanked some civilian Master Class shooters running 80's at 500 on the same target on a practice day. I was running the line. I'll let ya'll debate what that converts to for 10 shot strings, or if you had the opportunity to scope and bench the M16's. ...but Green Tip ain't super terrible. That said, I'll take Mk262 or M855A1 any day first.
Oh yeah, I think Fackler will tell you that M855 at high velocity will bend and fracture at the canneleure and fragment after that. For the number of penetrators and jacket fragments that I found in the pits (from berm shots etc) I would tend to believe it.
We have a guard fella shooting service rifle. The first shoots of the year were at 600yds and he was using M855 stuff he got from his unit. He was making it work but barely. I told him to buy some CBC/mag tech ammo loaded with 77 Sierra's. His scores improved dramatically.
Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.
The M855A1 looks like a great round for the 5.56. Is there any truth to the tips damaging feed ramps?
Down to 1900 fps range still performing well on gel.
Yes. The hardened steel tip chatters feed ramps and the “chamber face” in HK 416’s. It also wears barrels and bolts out twice as fast as legacy ammo. Magpul Gen 3 Pmags (only them) solved the reliability and feed ramp issue mostly, but barrel and bolt wear is a thing.
Originally Posted by renegade50
I retired in 08 Was outta the fight in 04. Have no experience with the 855AI But I have heard bad about it from guys I know still in up on Post Heard it fragments to early penetration wise and loses energy fast in a body and still taking 3 to 4 shots to put the enemy down at times. And have also heard "green" reasons drove the pony behind that round.
To be honest soldiers say they hate the 855AI bullet
That is just what I have heard.....
Nothing meant by my post either. Just trying to make sure correct information gets passed.
All rounds 5.56, 7.62, 300WM, 50 cal- all of them can and will take multiple lethal rounds to incapacitate someone unless the CNS is sufficiently damaged. Some people drop from on 22LR to the foot, others takes multiple 50 cal rounds to the torso and are still fighting. Unless you disrupt the CNS- it’s nothing but a timer and you don’t know what that time is. The more tissue that is damaged, all else being equal, the faster incapacitation occurs.
M855A1 has issues, but terminal ballistics isn’t one of them. It features zero neck length, fragments early and exceptionally for 4-6 inches, has a massive operational velocity window, the tip penetrates 9-13 inches, the plug generally between 18-22 inches straight line. If you have a gun that shoot M855A1 well (there is one) then it is one of the best soft tissue projectiles available on the market.
Without going in-depth the short version is the both M193 and M855 are extremely velocity dependent. Both were made to work from 20” barrels and when you use them from 14.5” barrels they are both on the edge of being below required velocity to fragment when they tumble.
As for ballistics gel- since 2001 there has been more actual true study on terminal ballistics by working groups led by surgeons, agencies, terminal ballistitions, and operational personel. In more than 30,000 shootings, properly calibrated 10% Ballistic gel using FBI protocol has repeatedly shown to have a high correlation to actual shootings.
Precision of M855- the required spec for M855 and A1 is 6.8 MOA MR. That means when tested each Lot # must meet that spec. Most are better- again on the order of 4-6 MOA extreme spread. I don’t know what to tell you on the accuracy that you’ve seen. Every single test done by credible sources has shown the M855 is 4-6 MOA ammunition when shooting statistically relevant shot group sizes, and when NOT throwing any shots out. The FBI Ballostic Research Facility conducted a test on two Lot #’s of M855A1. Group sizes from multiple barrels ranged between 5.72” to 6.99” for 3x10 round groups.
Originally Posted by ChrisF
I can vouch for the fact that M855 penetrators are steel. I have a cup full of them somewhere on my desk. Pickups from the pits. I believe it's M855A1 that utilizes a tungsten alloy penetrator.
M855 and precision rifle fire are not used in the same sentence very often, but I've participated in the USMC CIAP where issued A2's and issued LC M855 was shot in competition. I can tell you that there were a couple of hard holding Marines that were cleaning the 5-V Baker targets at 500 yards with that combo. That would be a 20" 5 ring, 20 shots, slung up, slow fire prone through the irons, in the wind. Vee counts weren't anything to write home about, but it showed me that if you could find the center of your group, stay ahead of the wind, and execute good marksmanship, you could stay clean on a 4 MOA bull. I'd guess the ammo/gun combo was holding 3 to 3-1/2 MOA for 20 shot strings. These guys spanked some civilian Master Class shooters running 80's at 500 on the same target on a practice day. I was running the line. I'll let ya'll debate what that converts to for 10 shot strings, or if you had the opportunity to scope and bench the M16's. ...but Green Tip ain't super terrible. That said, I'll take Mk262, Mk318 or M855A1 any day given a choice.
Issued M855A1 uses a hardened steel arrow head tip, not tungsten.
I would be hesitant to try and decipher precision from field shoots with the variability inherent. I too have cleaned the 500 with green tip in a match, the 20 round group was about 12-13 inches. Thing was, on a bench that exact same lot of Greentip was 4.5 MOA from my gun consistently. Variables and random chance is what that group was. Early lots of M855A1 loaded on the old machines were 2.5-3 MOA ammo for 9 shots out of 10. Current ammo loaded on the real machines is 4-6 MOA just like M855.
Well if 4-6 moa is typical, that would put my groups right in that window.
I'm out of PMC XTAC 62gr LAP right now, but it has always done 2-3 moa, with 80% under 2 moa.I'm going have to get some more of the PMC stuff and do some side-by-side tests with the Federal AE XM855.
Back in my USMC days we transitioned from the M16A1/M193, to the M16A2/M855.
After the transition, requal scores took a significant increase across the board. So much so, that the scores for the ratings of Expert/Sharpshooter/Marksman were raised.
With the A2/M855, I have clear memories of the good shooters putting all ten rounds in a sub-10 inch group at the 300 Rapid Fire stage, prone/loop sling. Down in the butts, those groups were often covered with the 10-inch spotter meant for the 500 line.
Try some of the IMI Israeli stuff. Its accurate . Their 67 gr razor core load is accurate also.
Kwg020 855 has a tungsten penetrator inside the tip of the bullet jacket. Shaped like a tiny ice cream cone. The rest of the jacket of the bullet is lead filled. Not a bimetal jacket round with an actual steel core like the Soviet 5.45x 39 7n6. If you cut the 855 about 1/4th" to 3/8ths" from the tip you can remove the penetrator. Some nato countries use hard steel insted for the penetrator.
855 was designed as" humane" stable round for fast twist due to nato crap...
Much of the "killing and wounding" power of the m16 series of rifles has been neutered due to heavier bullets and faster twist rates and bullet design.
The AM EAGLE 855 120 and 150 plastic box stuff is grade 2 and 3 mostly 3. It is 2 moa stuff even in grade 1.
IIRC it has powder weight variance of + or - 2grs on the start of and end of runs on lots. So you could have that amount of variance in powder charge in a lot run alone from start to finish.
Then throw into it am eagle is grade 2 and 3 stuff from various runs And sold to the civilian market even though it is LC ammo. Kinda like a box of chocolates espically with the 120 and 150 plastic boxes they can be a mix of various lots of mixed grade 2 and 3 stuff.
The 420 cans are the same lot number and grade 2 ammo. That have been " rejected " for some reason... Usually cosmetic issues or low end powder charge.
It was my understanding that one round went all steel with a copper jacket. Could that be the M-855A1 ?
kwg
For liberals and anarchists, power and control is opium, selling envy is the fastest and easiest way to get it. TRR. American conservative. Never trust a white liberal. Malcom X Current NRA member.
Back in my USMC days we transitioned from the M16A1/M193, to the M16A2/M855.
After the transition, requal scores took a significant increase across the board. So much so, that the scores for the ratings of Expert/Sharpshooter/Marksman were raised.
With the A2/M855, I have clear memories of the good shooters putting all ten rounds in a sub-10 inch group at the 300 Rapid Fire stage, prone/loop sling. Down in the butts, those groups were often covered with the 10-inch spotter meant for the 500 line.
Early lots of M855 was more accurate as the TAA ammo attests. After 9/11 precision requirements we’re loosened to keep up with demand.
Originally Posted by kwg020
It was my understanding that one round went all steel with a copper jacket. Could that be the M-855A1 ?
kwg
M855A1 is a copper jacketed bullet with a solid copper plug in the base, and a steel arrowhead tip. It’s a three part projectile.
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