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That's why they don't teach Aquinas anymore. Much less Aristotle, Socrates, Plato.. If the gravitational constant (G) or weak force constant (gw) varied from their values by an exceedingly small fraction (higher or lower) --one part in 1050(.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001) then either the universe would have suffered a catastrophic collapse or would have exploded throughout its expansion, both of which options would have prevented the emergence and development of any life form. That doesn't make you go, "Hmmm?" And that is just one of the universal constants necessary for life to exist. None of that implies a Creator, just that the values are what they are and that's why we are here to talk about it. There may be countless bubble universes where the values are different, where no life is possible, our universe may cycle and each time it does, the values are different. Eternity is a long time. If God exists and is eternal, what has He been doing all this time? Creating an endless series of Universes in the hope of getting it right? Here is philosophy professor Edward Feser on the logical proofs for the existence of God---all of which has nothing to do with the fact that Neo-Darwinian evolution is an impossibility. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FvYwpyFbIQ
Tarquin
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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[It's not my rule. It is the rule of logic. Actually it is not. But then you dismiss Aquinas.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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"But at length he [God] grew old and soft and mellow and compassionate, more like a grandfather than a father, most like a tottery old grandmother.
Then he sat, shrivelled, in his chimney corner, fretting over his weak legs, world-weary, weary of willing, and one day suffocated through his excessive pity...
He was also indistinct. How angry he was with us, this snorter of wrath, because we mistook his meaning! But why did he not speak more clearly?
He had too many failures, this potter who had not learned his craft! But that he took vengeance on his pots and creations because they had turned out badly-- that was a sin against good taste."
Zarathustra, 'Retired From Service' in Thus Spoke Zarathustra.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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i was going to respond with something very succient and pithy.
but after so much caffeine this pm, with a heat wave, i completely forgot.
w/o air conditioning, i'd likely pack up and migrate back to scotland or there abouts.
the continuous efforts at the fusion of evolution and mystical reality is taking us somewhere?
are the high philosophers in their ivory towers wringing their hands over the outcome or not at all?
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Campfire Tracker
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[It's not my rule. It is the rule of logic. Actually it is not. But then you dismiss Aquinas. Philosophical theology is a poor means of understanding the world as it is. If the initial assumptions are false, the existence of a God being unproven....
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Breezed through Fesser's clip. Really fast, there are other things I should be doing. Seems he too rejects everything that doesn't constitute absolute, unassailable proof of God or the soul. But to have absolute proof, according to Ethics, would mean free will does not exist. And therefore we do not exist but are merely extensions of God's mind.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Breezed through Fesser's clip. Really fast, there are other things I should be doing. Seems he too rejects everything that doesn't constitute absolute, unassailable proof of God or the soul. But to have absolute proof, according to Ethics, would mean free will does not exist. And therefore we do not exist but are merely extensions of God's mind. What exactly do you mean by 'free will?' Do you mean decision making ability or something else?
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
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That's why they don't teach Aquinas anymore. Much less Aristotle, Socrates, Plato.. If the gravitational constant (G) or weak force constant (gw) varied from their values by an exceedingly small fraction (higher or lower) --one part in 1050(.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001) then either the universe would have suffered a catastrophic collapse or would have exploded throughout its expansion, both of which options would have prevented the emergence and development of any life form. That doesn't make you go, "Hmmm?" And that is just one of the universal constants necessary for life to exist. None of that implies a Creator, just that the values are what they are and that's why we are here to talk about it. There may be countless bubble universes where the values are different, where no life is possible, our universe may cycle and each time it does, the values are different. Eternity is a long time. If God exists and is eternal, what has He been doing all this time? Creating an endless series of Universes in the hope of getting it right? Here is philosophy professor Edward Feser on the logical proofs for the existence of God---all of which has nothing to do with the fact that Neo-Darwinian evolution is an impossibility. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FvYwpyFbIQLogic without evidence proves nothing. The logic may be sound but if the propositions are flawed, the conclusion does not relate to the real world. You can apply logic to anything, Comic book Superheros, the strengths and weaknesses of Batman.... Problem of evil''Aquinas dismissed the problem of evil by saying: 'This is part of the infinite goodness of God, that he should allow evil to exist, and out of it produce good.'' If you're about to protest that infinite goodness, by definition, wouldn't allow evil to exist, you're not alone.'' As for the assumption of God; The Argument of the Unmoved Mover''This cosmological argument asserts that God must be the cause of all movement in the Universe. Aquinas contends that an infinite regress of movers is impossible, meaning that there must be an unmoved mover that initiated all motion - and that this mover is called God. One could just as easily call the first mover "Charlie", or any other preferred name, since the argument does not establish that the "unmoved mover" has any of the characteristics that are usually associated with the concept of God, such as consciousness, benevolence, omnipotence, or a proclivity to intervene in our universe. Far from proving that the Christian God exists, the most the argument can do is lend some support to a sort of weak deism, but without even necessitating the continued existence of the "first mover" which could just as easily have been the Big Bang as any preferred deity.''
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Jan 2016
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Folks headed for hell work like hell to earn a spot a few degrees cooler. Hahaha. TFF.
Ecc 10:2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the left.
A Nation which leaves God behind is soon left behind.
"The Lord never asked anyone to be a tax collector, lowyer, or Redskins fan".
I Dindo Nuffin
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
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yes, we're into the conundrum if god is real, why doesn't he reveal himself?
in the opposite corner, we have the opposite set of conditions,
if he is real, won't revealing himself blow his cover?
god has to do his best work in secret?
that is behind the scenes?
god in the world can't reveal himself?
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
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Folks headed for hell work like hell to earn a spot a few degrees cooler. Hahaha. TFF. Hell? You don't believe in a God of Love?
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,993 |
That's why they don't teach Aquinas anymore. Much less Aristotle, Socrates, Plato.. If the gravitational constant (G) or weak force constant (gw) varied from their values by an exceedingly small fraction (higher or lower) --one part in 1050(.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001) then either the universe would have suffered a catastrophic collapse or would have exploded throughout its expansion, both of which options would have prevented the emergence and development of any life form. That doesn't make you go, "Hmmm?" And that is just one of the universal constants necessary for life to exist. None of that implies a Creator, just that the values are what they are and that's why we are here to talk about it. There may be countless bubble universes where the values are different, where no life is possible, our universe may cycle and each time it does, the values are different. Eternity is a long time. If God exists and is eternal, what has He been doing all this time? Creating an endless series of Universes in the hope of getting it right? Here is philosophy professor Edward Feser on the logical proofs for the existence of God---all of which has nothing to do with the fact that Neo-Darwinian evolution is an impossibility. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FvYwpyFbIQLogic without evidence proves nothing. The logic may be sound but if the propositions are flawed, the conclusion does not relate to the real world. You can apply logic to anything, Comic book Superheros, the strengths and weaknesses of Batman.... Problem of evil''Aquinas dismissed the problem of evil by saying: 'This is part of the infinite goodness of God, that he should allow evil to exist, and out of it produce good.'' If you're about to protest that infinite goodness, by definition, wouldn't allow evil to exist, you're not alone.'' As for the assumption of God; The Argument of the Unmoved Mover''This cosmological argument asserts that God must be the cause of all movement in the Universe. Aquinas contends that an infinite regress of movers is impossible, meaning that there must be an unmoved mover that initiated all motion - and that this mover is called God. One could just as easily call the first mover "Charlie", or any other preferred name, since the argument does not establish that the "unmoved mover" has any of the characteristics that are usually associated with the concept of God, such as consciousness, benevolence, omnipotence, or a proclivity to intervene in our universe. Far from proving that the Christian God exists, the most the argument can do is lend some support to a sort of weak deism, but without even necessitating the continued existence of the "first mover" which could just as easily have been the Big Bang as any preferred deity.'' But not that we understand forces such as gravity, there's no need for an "unmoved mover" to push the planets around the sun.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
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yes, we're into the conundrum if god is real, why doesn't he reveal himself?
in the opposite corner, we have the opposite set of conditions,
if he is real, won't revealing himself blow his cover?
god has to do his best work in secret?
that is behind the scenes?
god in the world can't reveal himself? The God of ancient Greece supposedly revealed themselves all the time, especially at night to hot mortal women.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 26,337
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 26,337 |
yes, we're into the conundrum if god is real, why doesn't he reveal himself?
in the opposite corner, we have the opposite set of conditions,
if he is real, won't revealing himself blow his cover?
god has to do his best work in secret?
that is behind the scenes?
god in the world can't reveal himself? The God of ancient Greece supposedly revealed themselves all the time, especially at night to hot mortal women. well, ahem, there is that. bacchus was a part of their culture. but jesus was hebrew. lot's of his followers were greek. surely we can resolve our differences in a civil method and way?
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
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God in effect prepared and brought such evil onto Job , and did it through an evil agent entity he permits to exist and at the instruction of God.
You fail to distinguish moral evil or wickedness from physical "evil" such as calamity, disaster, etc, Allowing moral evil to exist is not the same as creating moral evil. NO , it seems you fail to realize Job suffers evils/calamities as result of both physical and moral evil brought on directly by an arrangement between God and Satan. Job 1:13. a messenger comes to Job and tells him that the Sabeans had attacked and stolen all his oxen and asses and killed all the servants with them. 16, another messenger comes and says that the fire of God had fallen and destroyed all his sheep and the servants with them. 17, another messenger comes and says that the Chaldeans had raided the camel herd and taken them all and killed the servants. 18–19, the message comes that all of his children were crushed to death when a tornado caused the house to collapse. (Two of the calamities were caused by evil men.) Allowing moral evil to exist is not the same as creating moral evil.
it is part of Gods original plan that moral evil should exist , and that it should be created by prior arrangement through God. calamities/evils [be they moral or physical] do not happen without Gods empowering authorisation to natural forces, or to Satan and wicked mankind. Satan is Gods spiritual attack dog that he let off the leash. giving him dominion-making him prince of this world, ..Satan can do no more or less than God permits. if you as a master let a savage pit bull off the leash knowing it would attack and kill people, you are responsible. its no different with Gods knowledge and control of Satan.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554 |
What exactly do you mean by 'free will?' Do you mean decision making ability or something else? The ability to tell my creator to stick it?
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554 |
If you're about to protest that infinite goodness, by definition, wouldn't allow evil to exist, you're not alone. Classic non-sequitur.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554 |
God in effect prepared and brought such evil onto Job , and did it through an evil agent entity he permits to exist and at the instruction of God.
You fail to distinguish moral evil or wickedness from physical "evil" such as calamity, disaster, etc, Allowing moral evil to exist is not the same as creating moral evil. NO , it seems you fail to realize Job suffers evils/calamities as result of both physical and moral evil brought on directly by an arrangement between God and Satan. Job 1:13. a messenger comes to Job and tells him that the had attacked and stolen all his oxen and asses and killed all the servants with them. 16, another messenger comes and says that the fire of God had fallen and destroyed all his sheep and the servants with them. 17, another messenger comes and says that the Chaldeans had raided the camel herd and taken them all and killed the servants. 18–19, the message comes that all of his children were crushed to death when a tornado caused the house to collapse. (Two of the calamities were caused by evil men.) Allowing moral evil to exist is not the same as creating moral evil.
it is part of Gods original plan that moral evil should exist , and that it should be created by prior arrangement through God. calamities/evils [be they moral or physical] do not happen without Gods empowering authorisation to natural forces, or to Satan and wicked mankind. Satan is Gods spiritual attack dog that he let off the leash. giving him dominion-making him prince of this world, ..Satan can do no more or less than God permits. if you as a master let a savage pit bull off the leash knowing it would attack and kill people, you are responsible. its no different with Gods knowledge and control of Satan. So you would conclude that God is evil? In league with Satan to drive all men to eternal damnation?
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
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Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
So you would conclude that God is evil? ...?
Do you acknowledge God is responsible for both moral and physical evils? God creates evil both moral and physical. as evidenced by the various calamities suffered by Job. The terrible moral and physical evil done to Jesus is another example of God empowering/sanctioning both. John 19: 10 “Do you refuse to speak to me?” Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?” 11 Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above....”
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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“When there is a conflict between a proven truth about nature and a particular reading of Scripture, an alternative reading of Scripture must be sought.”
- St. Augustine
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