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Re: Evolution is a myth? Please explain: [Re: Thunderstick] #14053167 08/15/19
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Originally Posted by Thunderstick
We are happy to be known as men of faith and confidence in the facts and evidence. I have no interest in presenting my position from the basis of doubt, uncertainty, and speculative theory.



Faith needs neither facts or evidence. Faith is a belief held without the support of facts or evidence. The existence of a God or gods is not a fact, nor is there evidence to justify a conviction in their existence. What it says in the bible about God (or the Quran, Gita, etc), is not evidence for the existence of God.

300 BP

Re: Evolution is a myth? Please explain: [Re: Ringman] #14053171 08/15/19
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Originally Posted by Ringman
Originally Posted by Etoh
the only absolute --- is their are no absolutes



Are you absolutely certain?!


has to do with proving negative arguments


there is one absolute thou I have to admit.

On the third day God created Pus.


If you have an opinion, it's on a bell curve--somewhere
Re: Evolution is a myth? Please explain: [Re: Idaho_Shooter] #14053226 08/15/19
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Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
...adding the carrot and stick of Heaven and Hell, does take some of the work out of enforcing those rules upon people
not intelligent enough to figure out for themselves that rules should be followed.


folks should note how the concept of heaven and hell changed in the Jewish faith over time,
Initially 'Sheol' ( land of forgetfulness) was not so much a place of tortuous punishment and there
really was no concept of reward.
In fact, Ecclesiastes and Job insist that all of the dead go down to Sheol, whether good or evil,
rich or poor, slave or free man.

With the introduction into Judaism of Hellenistic notions came the division of the material, perishable body
and the spiritual, eternal soul.

of course christians are known to think or imagine that God can strike the wicked well before hells gates....


Norsemen raid on Lindisfarne 793 AD,
Pagans wielding their battle axes and spilling the blood and brain matter of the Christian monasteries monks
were perceived as the wrath of God raining down on them for their wicked errant ways.
but sober fact of the matter was the nOrse were there to gather valuable material treasures.
and in true Norse style swept the delusional cowering moron christians out of their way.


-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
Re: Evolution is a myth? Please explain: [Re: Idaho_Shooter] #14053241 08/15/19
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Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
Well I suppose, if one does not have the innate moral character to do what is right.

Sorry to be harsh but that's how I see it. I'd be much better off as a crook if in the end it didn't matter. And probably offed myself a few years ago when things got really rough. If one simply ceases to exist, why not?




The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh

Which explains a lot.
Re: Evolution is a myth? Please explain: [Re: Starman] #14053272 08/15/19
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Originally Posted by Starman
Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
...adding the carrot and stick of Heaven and Hell, does take some of the work out of enforcing those rules upon people
not intelligent enough to figure out for themselves that rules should be followed.


folks should note how the concept of heaven and hell changed in the Jewish faith over time,
Initially 'Sheol' ( land of forgetfulness) was not so much a place of tortuous punishment and there
really was no concept of reward.
In fact, Ecclesiastes and Job insist that all of the dead go down to Sheol, whether good or evil,
rich or poor, slave or free man.

With the introduction into Judaism of Hellenistic notions came the division of the material, perishable body
and the spiritual, eternal soul.

of course christians are known to think or imagine that God can strike the wicked well before hells gates....


Norsemen raid on Lindisfarne 793 AD,
Pagans wielding their battle axes and spilling the blood and brain matter of the Christian monasteries monks
were perceived as the wrath of God raining down on them for their wicked errant ways.
but sober fact of the matter was the nOrse were there to gather valuable material treasures.
and in true Norse style swept the delusional coweriing moron christians out of their way.


Not only changing ideas and beliefs on Hell over time, but Satan and God Himself, especially between the OT and the NT.

Alpha

Re: Evolution is a myth? Please explain: [Re: DBT] #14053293 08/15/19
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Originally Posted by DBT


Not only changing ideas and beliefs on Hell over time, but Satan and God Himself, especially between the OT and the NT.


yep.

as I undertand things; Asaiah 45:7 where God says he creates evil,.. is before scripture had personified evil as the devil.

I mean to say;... that at some point 'divine intermediaries' were introduced to scripture.

EG:

2 Samuel 24:1
"And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say,
Go, number Israel and Judah."

1 Chronicles 21:1

"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel."



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Re: Evolution is a myth? Please explain: [Re: Starman] #14053334 08/15/19
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Originally Posted by Starman
Originally Posted by DBT


Not only changing ideas and beliefs on Hell over time, but Satan and God Himself, especially between the OT and the NT.


yep.

as I undertand things; Asaiah 45:7 where God says he creates evil,.. is before scripture had personified evil as the devil.

I mean to say;... that at some point 'divine intermediaries' were introduced to scripture.

EG:

2 Samuel 24:1
"And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say,
Go, number Israel and Judah."

1 Chronicles 21:1

"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel."



Yes. So many inconvenient truths for Christians, and theists in general to face that the only defence is denial of the truth.

Re: Evolution is a myth? Please explain: [Re: Idaho_Shooter] #14053373 08/15/19
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Theres no devil in ancient Israel’s worldview.

In the Hebrew Bible, YHWH’s greatest enemies are not fallen angels commanding armies of demons, nor even the gods of other nations,
but, rather, human beings. It isn’t the devil that spreads evil across the face of creation—it is mankind. Other than human beings,
YHWH has no nemesis, nor are there malevolent spiritual forces not under his authority. YHWH is ultimately a god of justice. He is behind
the good and the bad, behind the blessings and the curses. It is within this divine court of justice and retribution that Satan has his origins.

The noun satan, Hebrew for “adversary” or “accuser,” occurs nine times in the Hebrew Bible: five times to describe a human military, political
or legal opponent, and four times with reference to a divine being. In Numbers 22, the prophet Balaam, hired to curse the Israelites, is stopped
by a messenger from Israel’s God YHWH, described as “the satan” acting on God’s behalf.

but don't let all that get in the way of a great Christian story.


-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
Re: Evolution is a myth? Please explain: [Re: Idaho_Shooter] #14053395 08/15/19
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Not to mention the material for bible stories, including God, borrowed from surrounding cultures, Sumer, Babylon....

Re: Evolution is a myth? Please explain: [Re: nighthawk] #14053399 08/15/19
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Originally Posted by nighthawk
Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
Well I suppose, if one does not have the innate moral character to do what is right.

Sorry to be harsh but that's how I see it. I'd be much better off as a crook if in the end it didn't matter. And probably offed myself a few years ago when things got really rough. If one simply ceases to exist, why not?



Absolutely, yes, there are many who NEED a crutch to guide them through a moral and civil life. And if a belief in a deity works for them, great. More power to them. I have never criticized any for Faith. Some of my most beloved family members are, or were before they passed, very devout.

Just recognize that some people do have enough resolve to know good from bad. Enough wisdom to know what is destructive to community relations and what is beneficial to community and family.

Or if nothing else they recognize the harm and pain it would do to their family if they were to take up a life of crime or drugs, the hurt they would leave behind with suicide.

Not everyone needs God to comfort them each day. Some have discovered Heaven right here on Earth with family or friends. I, for one, have no need to believe that anything happens after the electrons quit flowing through the grey matter.

And if there is no one left behind to mourn your early demise, if suicide will bring no harm to any other person, then absolutely, Why Not?

A fellow I worked with for thirty years took that choice as his age advanced. It was time for a nursing home. He was no longer able to care for himself at home. He had no family to even mourn his passing, certainly none who would have cared for him as an invalid.

He made a choice to not go to a nursing home. His neighbors heard the gunshot, and it was all over. I certainly respect the choice he made.


My ideal as a conservative:

That each person may reap as he/she has sown.
Bravo

Re: Evolution is a myth? Please explain: [Re: TF49] #14053674 08/15/19
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Originally Posted by TF49
Originally Posted by BOWSINGER
Originally Posted by Fubarski
Originally Posted by BOWSINGER
It is an incontrovertible fact that organisms have changed, or evolved, during the history of life on Earth.


You're late to the party.

Mutations and microevolution were discussed quite a few pages ago.

If you have proof of a species evolving into another species, jump right in.


Evolution: Watching Speciation Occur | Observations - Scientific ...
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/.../evolution-watching-speciation-occu...
“Critics of evolution often fall back on the maxim that no one has ever seen one species split into two. While that's clearly a straw man, because most speciation takes far longer than our lifespan to occur, it's also not true. We have seen species split, and we continue to see species diverging every day.

For example, there were the two new species of American goatsbeards (or salsifies, genus Tragopogon) that sprung into existence in the past century. In the early 1900s, three species of these wildflowers - the western salsify (T. dubius), the meadow salsify (T. pratensis), and the oyster plant (T. porrifolius) - were introduced to the United States from Europe. As their populations expanded, the species interacted, often producing sterile hybrids. But by the 1950s, scientists realized that there were two new variations of goatsbeard growing. While they looked like hybrids, they weren't sterile. They were perfectly capable of reproducing with their own kind but not with any of the original three species - the classic definition of a new species.”



Simple genetic variation within a genotype. More examples of genetic variation passed off and sold to the masses as proof of evolution...of the macro type.



The examples I posted were macroevolution as defined as evolutionary change at the species level.


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NRA FOR LIFE

I MISS SARAH

“In Trump We Trust.” Right????

SOMEBODY please tell TRH that Netanyahu NEVER said "Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away."












Re: Evolution is a myth? Please explain: [Re: Idaho_Shooter] #14053819 08/16/19
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Idaho Shooter, to me it gets down to questions that have been constant through the millennia. Why are we here? What's the point of living? And up pops Ethics, a rational person chooses to act in a way that (in his evaluation) brings about a preponderance of satisfying consequences. Without a higher purpose I'd be all over natural desires, lust, gluttony, and so forth. Where's the down side? Get caught and do an Epstein.

Please note I'm not being critical or judgemental here. That's so far above my pay grade you couldn't see it with the Hubble.


The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh

Which explains a lot.
Re: Evolution is a myth? Please explain: [Re: Idaho_Shooter] #14053860 08/16/19
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Those who believe in a higher power do better in terms of morality, gluttony, addiction, etc?

Re: Evolution is a myth? Please explain: [Re: BOWSINGER] #14053871 08/16/19
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Originally Posted by BOWSINGER
Originally Posted by TF49
Originally Posted by BOWSINGER
Originally Posted by Fubarski
Originally Posted by BOWSINGER
It is an incontrovertible fact that organisms have changed, or evolved, during the history of life on Earth.


You're late to the party.

Mutations and microevolution were discussed quite a few pages ago.

If you have proof of a species evolving into another species, jump right in.


Evolution: Watching Speciation Occur | Observations - Scientific ...
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/.../evolution-watching-speciation-occu...
“Critics of evolution often fall back on the maxim that no one has ever seen one species split into two. While that's clearly a straw man, because most speciation takes far longer than our lifespan to occur, it's also not true. We have seen species split, and we continue to see species diverging every day.

For example, there were the two new species of American goatsbeards (or salsifies, genus Tragopogon) that sprung into existence in the past century. In the early 1900s, three species of these wildflowers - the western salsify (T. dubius), the meadow salsify (T. pratensis), and the oyster plant (T. porrifolius) - were introduced to the United States from Europe. As their populations expanded, the species interacted, often producing sterile hybrids. But by the 1950s, scientists realized that there were two new variations of goatsbeard growing. While they looked like hybrids, they weren't sterile. They were perfectly capable of reproducing with their own kind but not with any of the original three species - the classic definition of a new species.”



Simple genetic variation within a genotype. More examples of genetic variation passed off and sold to the masses as proof of evolution...of the macro type.



The examples I posted were macroevolution as defined as evolutionary change at the species level.



Yes, I suppose they are.....if the scientific community defines it that way. So, the next question to ask is this: Does change in “speciation” explain the evolution of that small four legged land mammal into a whale? I don’t think so.

I’m old, but when I was in college, there was no such thing as “micro-evolution.” What is called now called micro evolution was simply “genetics” and what in modern day parlance may be referred to as genetic variation.

I submit that the proponents of evolution had so little evidence and so little factual, modern data to,support,the general thesis of evolution that they simply “re-branded” genetic variation and called it micro evolution.

Same thing with the man caused global warming. The “scientific” community wanted more money and attention so they start a “chicken little” program and the hound out those that disagree. The fight against global warming is characterized by fear mongering, new taxes and population control schemes.

Men go mad in great herds.....then they stampede.





Last edited by TF49; 08/16/19. Reason: Auto fill

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Re: Evolution is a myth? Please explain: [Re: Idaho_Shooter] #14053880 08/16/19
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Quote
Those who believe in a higher power do better in terms of morality, gluttony, addiction, etc?

Beats me. I can tell you it makes a difference for me.

Here on a former rez the Native American community is having trouble with youth drug use, gang membership, suicide. It has been suggested that a cause may be a general lack of spirituality with the current generation, Native American spirituality or otherwise. Suffer a social setback, drugs make it feel better. Gangs substitute for family moral support. Suicide when one seems doomed to perpetual failure. Why not when there's nothing beyond how you feel today.

I think you see that in society at large, though not as acutely. Suicide rates have increased steadily since 2000 (NIH). I don't think I have to provide a source showing drug abuse and gang membership have grown markedly during the same period. Pew Research tracked a decline in religious affiliation.

Does the correlation mean anything? I don't know but it would be a good topic for investigation by those who enjoy Sociology.



The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh

Which explains a lot.
Re: Evolution is a myth? Please explain: [Re: Idaho_Shooter] #14053911 08/16/19
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Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
Originally Posted by Thunderstick
But you cannot say that it is a moral absolute for anything to matter unless you believe in moral absolutes.

Oh, I believe in moral absolutes.

Never break a promise, absolutely.
Marriage is sacrosanct, absolutely.
Treat others as you would have them treat you.

Not because breaking such rules is a sin. But because breaking them is not conducive to harmonious relations.

It does not require devine inspiration for a group of intelligent humans to determine rules which allow society to function smoothly.

But I will admit, adding the carrot and stick of Heaven and Hell, does take some of the work out of enforcing those rules upon people not intelligent enough to figure out for themselves that rules should be followed.




What you have said is all well and good....you describe an honorable and pretty much correct moral code but.... two issues here.

First, most societies will not, as a cultural group, buy in to nor live out the moral code you describe.

Second, some one else can have a “moral code” that is in great conflict with yours. Strife is a certain result. What if some one else,thinks it is ok to do harm to your family because of.... well, for the sake of argument, your skin color, religious belief or political affiliation?


Regarding the “get of jail free card” ..... take a look at Matthew 7:23.....”.... away from me you evil doers.... I never knew you...”

Repentance does not work the way you describe it.

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Re: Evolution is a myth? Please explain: [Re: Idaho_Shooter] #14053918 08/16/19
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Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
Originally Posted by Thunderstick
But you cannot say that it is a moral absolute for anything to matter unless you believe in moral absolutes.

Oh, I believe in moral absolutes.

Never break a promise, absolutely.
Marriage is sacrosanct, absolutely.
Treat others as you would have them treat you.

Not because breaking such rules is a sin. But because breaking them is not conducive to harmonious relations.

It does not require devine inspiration for a group of intelligent humans to determine rules which allow society to function smoothly.

But I will admit, adding the carrot and stick of Heaven and Hell, does take some of the work out of enforcing those rules upon people not intelligent enough to figure out for themselves that rules should be followed.



The failure of your philosophy is illustrated when you have whole societies that embrace Fascism and Communism and they create their own morality and according to their morality, laws, and culture it is very proper to conduct themselves in the ways they did? The same moral breakdown is happening in our society today as people invent their own rules and create their own reality--like Obama and a whole host of liberals. Moral absolutes transcend cultures and people groups or they are not absolutes.

Re: Evolution is a myth? Please explain: [Re: Idaho_Shooter] #14053921 08/16/19
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Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
Originally Posted by nighthawk
Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
Originally Posted by nighthawk
If we assume that God does not exist then nothing in this thread matters. In fact neither you nor I matter, neither does anything else in the universe. Might be wise to have an open mind.

Why in the world would you say such a thing?

The happiness of my spouse and family very much matters.
My reputation as honest and trustworthy very much matters.
My kids and grandchildren growing up to be happy and productive matters.
The nation and world we leave behind for our grandchildren and great grandchildren to live in very much matters.

These things matter all the more, because that is all there is to matter.

Why? It would make no difference. Why not do whatever makes you happy and when life gets hard, poof, you cease to exist. In other words what's the point of living, particularly when things get unpleasant. This "philosophy" seems to be playig out in the news lately.


Well I suppose, if one does not have the innate moral character to do what is right.

I have had just such conversations with several staunch "Christians" who stated: "If I did not think I would go to hell, I would be out there screwing anything with a skirt." And then guess what, one of the jackasses is in the middle of a nasty divorce because he was caught cheating on his wife.

Christians have no corner on the market when it comes to morality. Nor do non Christians have a corner on immorality. The only difference is that Christians often think they have a "get out of jail free card" tucked in their wallet. All they have to do is repent.

Me, I know that if I wrong someone, they are wronged forever. I expect no forgiveness.

We do what we need to do to minimize harm to our loved ones, and to our society in general.


You are right that all of us are prone to failure and none of us should degrade another as though we are inherently better than them. Whether we are Christians or not we need moral boundaries and whether we are Christians or not we can respect and should observe moral boundaries. We shouldn't be living moral lives just for an eternal carrot--because they aren't given out anyway for morality. Faith and forgiveness are about what we all need as humans--the ability to make wrong things right and the confidence for a fresh start and a reset when we fall short.

Last edited by Thunderstick; 08/16/19.
Re: Evolution is a myth? Please explain: [Re: DBT] #14053926 08/16/19
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Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by Thunderstick
or bipolar analysis as the other thread would illustrate



Something is being illustrated, but not what you think or believe.

Again, basic logic in the form of a contradiction....one of many.

If love keeps no record of wrongs and God is Love, God does not keep a record of wrongs.

God punishes generations for the transgressions of their forebears, God is not only keeping a record of wrongs but passing them onto the innocent.


''Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.''- 1 Corinthians 13;5-7

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven.'' Matthew 5:43


Then the contradiction;

I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me'' - Exodus 20:55

so YHWH will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nothing; (Deut 28:63)


"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create
evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)

Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" (Amos
3:6, KJV)

"Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? " (Lamentations 3:38)


Undeniable contradictions, Thunderstruck.


and again I would point others to the other monumental thread where we responded to your alleged contradictions.

Re: Evolution is a myth? Please explain: [Re: DBT] #14053943 08/16/19
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Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by Thunderstick
We are happy to be known as men of faith and confidence in the facts and evidence. I have no interest in presenting my position from the basis of doubt, uncertainty, and speculative theory.



Faith needs neither facts or evidence. Faith is a belief held without the support of facts or evidence. The existence of a God or gods is not a fact, nor is there evidence to justify a conviction in their existence. What it says in the bible about God (or the Quran, Gita, etc), is not evidence for the existence of God.


You either exercise blind faith or faith that rests on evidence. I choose the latter. Faith for me is the faith that is defined by the Bible--as believing in the evidence.
"Prove all things, hold fast that which is good."
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Faith has multiple definitions. Here is one from Noah Webster's original dictionary which follows one of the biblical definitions.
2. The assent of the mind to the truth of a proposition advanced by another; belief, or probable evidence of any kind.

Faith is being redefined in our age to mean acceptance of anything that has no facts or evidence to support it. That is not the biblical definition of faith.

Here is a Greek Lexicon definition of faith pistis,
3982 peíthō(the root of 4102 /pístis, "faith") – to persuade; (passive) be persuaded of what is trustworthy.

The faith you describe is not true faith at all. The Bible talks about true and false faith. James tells us that false faith has no evidence of correlating acts.

The faith you describe is more akin to the belief in atheistic evolution than biblical faith.

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