Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters The Planet where they shoot 4 MOA rifles

Leon wrote
"I have noticed that a lot of the guys who have 4 MOA rifles spend time at the range after missing a deer on opening morning. Ironic to see them trying to figure out why they missed. Usually the blister pack scope was off by a foot or more and was usually loose in the mounts. Never figured how that how that happened, It was fine at the end of the season and hadn't been shot since."

As I said above, it's 98% the hunter and 2% the gear.

If indeed the scope is off by a large amount, you can't blame the gear at all. You could have a USMC M40-A5 with the finest optic on earth mounted and off-zero by a foot or more on loose mounts and have the same results. A lack of attention is a lack of attention. A man who doesn't practice can have such poorly mated scopes or sights and not know it because he is not involved in ANY degree of self-training.

I often hunt with iron sighted rifles and when I used handguns, they are mostly 100% stock with the exception of me doing "smooth and tunes" when I feel the need.
I also hunt with flintlocks in both 50 and 62 calibers with 1770 era sights.
I have never fired a shot with any handgun at any game that I have not killed, and I can say the same thing with all my muzzle-loaders. With revolvers and with muzzle-loaders I have been hunting on and off for over 50 years and all the misses I have ever made in my life, and every animal I have ever needed 2 shots with have been shot with scoped rifles (with one excepting where I killed a deer with a 45 ACP that I shot 2 times) And ALL of the times I ever missed with a scoped rifle were with guns and scopes that were just fine but one. That one was 3 years ago when the eyepiece on a Burris cracked at the threads and was moving around enough to cause misses at 100 yards of about 4 feet. I assume I cracked it riding in the back of a 4Wheeler I was riding in. (Burris sent me a new scope of a higher value in 1 week. I was impressed with their service)

I have hunted and killed game with a smooth bore 62 caliber French style flintlock and killed deer just fine.

Just 2 weeks ago, (on the 16th of August) I killed an antelope with a neck shot from an iron sighted 6.5X54 Mannlicher which I spotted from about 1/2 mile and did a stalk to within 20 yards. (yes -- twenty)

But I HUNT and I am very very often putting my belt buckle in the dirt. I seldom go hunting and don't bring back the game. I get skunked at times, but not all that often.

I own about 15 rifles that will shoot MOA and of them about 1/3 will shoot under half MOA. I own 2 that shoot at about 1/4 MOA. Such accuracy is important to the target shooter and also to the prairie dog shooter. But for deer and larger game, it's a good confidence builder, but truly not all that important. One of my 30-06s, a "Scout" style Mauser, shoots about 1.3MOA on demand, and another, my Browning M95 Lever action has issue buck-horns and a 1/16" bead and I don't know exactly what it will do. Now I am in my 60s. I can shoot over a rest with the lever action and keep them into about 2.5 -3 MOA. But I can say at I can hit what I shoot at with both of them. I have never fired a shot with the Scout at any big game over 450 yards, and the longest shot I ever made with my M95 30-06 is about 300 yards. Yet those two 30-06s have perfect "track-records" so far, in that I have never fired a shot at game with either one that I have not killed, and I have never fired a 2nd shot at any game with either one. I am batting 1000 with them both, and have been for the 30+ years I have owned them.

In contrast, I own a 270 on a Mauser I made myself and it shoots under 1/2 MOA so often it's gotten boring. I did it yesterday when I was shooting all my rifles to confirm zeros. Yet I have misses 2 deer with that rifle. Why? Because I missed the deer........that's why. I fell for the notion "It's so accurate I just can't miss". Ummmmmmmmmm Yeah I can! I have learned that when the man fails, the gun will cooperate------ 100% of the time.

A good hunter will bring home the game because he can HUNT. When I hunt with a smooth bore flintlock ,or when I hunt with a handgun, I get close. That's why it's called hunting. And if you can hunt you will find that getting into range with a high accuracy scoped rifle is the same hunting techniques you use if you carry a bow and arrow or a stock revolver. But when I get a 100 yard shot with the 270 I named above there is NO doubt I am going to kill the elk, deer or antelope with that rifle as long as I don't rush and get sloppy (See if you can just take a wild guess as to how I would know that)

So again I beat the drum. It's the man......not the gun. A good hunter hunts within his abilities no mater what he is carrying at the time.

Shaman, I tend to agree with your comments, provided that the ranges are kept within the capabilities of the rifles and shooters ability to keep shots in the animals kill zone. I want to get my rifle to group as good as it is capable of, and adjust my range accordingly. My capabilities, must also be factored in. If I follow my own stipulations, and I miss, it is totally on me.....not the rifle/load. As szihn stated, using his handgun analogy.....the hunter should stay within the capabilities of the firearm/shooter. If that capability is “only” 25 yards.....so be it! memtb

Well said Shaman. But the internet benchresters don't want to hear reality. Also we might consider, two world wars were were fought with 4 moa rifles (and ammunition).

I too learned to hunt in Archery season and because of that I generally hunt places where my shots are inside of 50 yards making MOA accuracy relatively unimportant to me.

I used a 4 MOA rifle for many years in the Northern Minnesota woods. My first deer rifle, a 98K Mauser BCD with it's original 8mm barrel. The lead looks like a sewer pipe from corrosive ammo I guess. Redfield peep site. My mentor growing up told me if I could keep a shoot offhand on a dinner plate at 100 yards I would have no trouble getting deer. He was right. Still have the rifle, and for deep woods hunting I would have no issues using it today even though I have several other rifles that are MOA.

It amazes me the amount of guys who would rather let some else sight in their rifle rather than do it themselves. I know a guy who bought a Ruger #1 with gorgeous factory wood many years ago but the accuracy is horrible. He wont get rid of it because of the wood, but on the other hand he never hunts with it anyway

Jezoos Christie, are you sensitive. I wasn't even arguing with you. Get a life.

Oh, goodness no! I was not put off in the least by what you wrote. My reason for writing was that if folks are forgetting what a 4 MOA rifle is to the point where guys are saying that they were never acceptable, then we are losing a part of our history. In another generation, everyone will be wondering what the f*#% all the hoo-haw was about. If everyone can pop down to Wally World and buy a sub-MOA rifle that shoots flat out to 1000 yards with factory ammo, they'll look back on us think we were daft for bedding our stocks and annealing our brass and will think a $50 trigger job was something you did with a prostitute. We need to preserve this history or else we'll lose it.

I envision one day a living history deer camp, where the youth of tomorrow can learn about these things. I'd love to a part of it-- dressed in my Jones hat and wearing LL Bean boots, giving lessons on how to tell kids the correct way to explain a muffed shot. . .

, , .but I digress.

Interesting for sure, Thanks

My favorite rifle for elk hunting is about 3 MOA. It's an open-sighted muzzleloader and the only reason it's my favorite is because I can hunt elk with it in September during the rut. Can't do that here with a centerfire rifle or a scope.

When I lived back east and hunted whitetails in the hardwoods I did fine with a .30-30 that was only slightly more accurate. Shots over 100 yards were very rare so 3 MOA was fine.

But it's entirely different out west. I've made a few shots I wouldn't even attempt with a four MOA rifle, lots of chances for long shots out west.

Re simple "just good enough" rifles and sights, and "one box of ammo is good for two seasons, no need to waste it practicing", the tellers of hunting tales will brag about how many deer they killed, never mention how many got away wounded.

Six of one half a dozen of the other. Seen guys with half minute rifles who shoot lots wound/lose critters at long distance from prone with bipods, rests, range finders and spotter assistants. Brag about how many deer they killed, never mention how many got away wounded.

Shoot at what you can hit, don't care if it is a 4 minute rifle or one that shoots 1/4" all day long. Know your limitations.

Shaman, I couldn't help but laugh while reading your post. My B-I-L was 13 years old when I married his sister and he was the little brother that I never had. He started deer hunting not long after that with an old 742 that MAY have been a 4 MOA rifle. His zeroing technique was to shoot at an empty coke can laying on the ground anywhere from 25 to 40 yards away....while leaning over the hood of his truck. If the can moved at the shot, he was good to go. Despite this, he was, and still is, the most prolific deer killer I have ever been around. If he spots a deer, it is dead.

About 25 years ago(I've been hunting with him for 50 years now), I gave him a 308 bolt action because the 742 finally shot to pieces. It is a good rifle capable of 1 to 1.5 MOA, but I can't see any appreciable difference in his deer killing prowess. When you seldom miss with a 4 MOA rifle, how much better can you do with a more accurate rifle?

That's the truth. Know your limitations, and practice realistically. Many more rounds are fired from the bench than from field positions. Heck, I've seen ranges with benches crammed so densely that there really isn't room to shoot unsupported.

Paul

Sounded just like my life back in the mid 70s shaman! East Tx, never shot a deer past 60yds with an old Mod 742 30-06 I "bought" from my uncle. he was in a financial bind and asked me if I knew anyone who would give him $85 for it ( 1974). I told him I would and later one he could buy it back. We didn't use scopes then, but as a vet I knew about irons. at 100yds it would shoot 5-6"! I killed several deer/hogs with it and later on when we had access to Federal "Red Box" ammo with Sierra 165 SBT it became a "bonafide" 4 MOA! I still killed game up from 15yds to 60yds though, ha. My 30-30 Mod 94 had made my longest shot up til then, 90yds. it was a 3-4 MOA. The rest were 10-20 yds.

Many a Marine shot "Expert" (out to 500 Meters) with an M14 that was "required" to be at least a 4 MOA shooter! Killing/hurting Commies is different, I know, but one can do well if they "hunker down", ha. I enjoyed you post!!

One of my friends shoots the same 30-06 Ruger he's had forever. If you asked him about MOA he'd have no idea what you were saying. I know his rifle is capable of far better than 4 MOA as I've worked up his hunting load for him But he doesn't know and doesn't care what an MOA is and if his rifle is capable of 1 or 100 MOA. He confidently goes out and kills his caribou every year, generally with one shot, comes home and puts the rifle back under the bed until next season. To him it's just a tool.

I'll be honest. In a lot of ways, my experiences deer hunting with 4MOA rifles were possibly better than as they are now with my current crop of rifles that are all shooting nice tight groups. They're certainly different.

For one thing, hunting with a deer sprayer forced me to stick to sure-bet venues where all my shots were at knife-fight ranges. There is a special zing that comes from not only the close range-- there's a special cold-bloodedness to it all. I'm now filling at least one of my tags at 150-175 yards. It just isn't the same.

I've all but sworn off my Ruger Hawkeye in 30-06 for at least this season. The reason is that I've got dozen or more deer rifle projects-- some going back to 2014, some longer, that I haven't been able to prove out simply because I've had such a consistent venison maker. A few years ago, I caught myself calling for the truck even before I'd check to see if the deer was down. I'd shot it in the last minute of legal hunting with the Hawkeye, and the blast had blinded me. I was so confident I'd dropped the deer in her tracks, I didn't get out and check.

30 years ago, I'd have sweated bullets until I'd gotten down from the stand and found the deer. In this case, I waited for the truck and then drove out to the approximate location, and there she was.

I gotta say: if I could find rifle ammo for $5 a box that went bang every time, I doubt I would handload. I killed a lot of stuff when I was young with crap factory ammo. Nothing I killed was beyond 200 yds, but most of it was well short of 50 yds. As long as it went bang, I could hunt that crap and be successful, even in the broad canyons and old burns I hunt much of the time.

The one thing that has changed for me when hunting with a sub-moa rifle is, unless I felt the shot was bad (a little too far back, etc.) I feel a lot more confident about where I'll find entrance/exit holes.

I drastically improved the accuracy of my Model 94 Winchester with peep sights, but it's still an open sighted .30-30 lever action carbine, so like you mentioned, I'll limit where I hunt with it.

I love to hunt with it and my Guide gun, which I just (re)install the peeps on and zeroed. Gonna hunt the thick stuff...