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Helllooo! It's plant poison not people poison. No way can this stuff hurt you, your children, your grandchildren, etc... Spray away.

BP...

Crossbow mixed full strength with full strength Round-Up is my go to for blackberries. I mix in a bit of dye to make sure I get the stuff I don't and not the stuff I do. Still a constant battle.

Geno, yeah, the lawyers can run amok with such things. I'll leave that to them.

Ecosystem effects are one of the issues I have concerns about. If one where to think you just spray it a little, it does its job and vanishes they would be very misinformed. Don't get me confused with bunny huggers. I like them fried, thanks.

One will find that virtually w/o exception the array of herbicides in use in this country do not simply vanish after use. If they find their way into soils or sediments via runoff or leaching into the aquifer they become stable until released elsewhere thru natural processes. The document linked above containing the long list of such things found in local waters is far from comprehensive and the major contributor for all pollutants listed is local Ag activities. These things attack micro/macro invertebrates to various degrees in the process and as a result the food chain foundation develops a few cracks along the way. I look at it as an economic issue primarily and one of priorities.

Back around 2008 the Florida DEP issued the 305B report IAW the Clean Water Act and part of that included the 303d List (impaired waters). At that time the state claimed that virtually all coastal inshore waters were impaired for a variety of reasons, and more than 80% of inland waters as well. It is a circumstance common across the USA these days. The executive summary of the 303d List included estimated contribution of the state's waters to our annual gross product. For inland and near shore coastal waters the number was in excess of $600 billion. Ag contribution estimates are estimated around $100 billion annually. Simple to figure out which goose laid the golden egg, no? 50 years ago most of our waters were relatively clean, the springs were clear and wildlife abundant. Toxic algae outbreaks on our coasts were unheard of and not 1/10th of a percent of the residents had ever heard of flesh eating bacteria. Those days are gone.

Back in the late '70s to early '80s I had a day job as a corporate pilot and night job as a commercial fisherman on the east coast of Florida. My income from fishing was over twice that of the flying job, working 3-4 nights/week at the former. You can't catch a frickin' cold in those waters these days unless one is inclined to dance in the rain around January....nude.

To reiterate my point(s) or perhaps clarify them a bit, we have some serious issues at hand that will require some hard choices to be made, this on a national level. If we, as a people, put it on the ground, it's going to have consequences. If we take steps to make things greener, bug & weed free, it has consequences. I don't have any reason to think that Roundup has had direct impact of a negative sort on my life, but am remarkably skeptical about the idea that it is innocent across the broad reach of this country. It is a poison and its residue is in our food. It is not a legacy I want to pass on to future generations, and I know for a fact there are alternatives. Question is, do we have the strength to change course?

BTW, I have survived 3 bouts with cancer, two of which were lymphomas. My doc is perplexed each year I drop by for a checkup. You see, I was supposed to be dead 8 years ago.

So are many of us.
And Strength? Judging from the many on this thread, hell no.
These are the same tough guys who smoke Chesterfield king non-filters and who would have bathed in Agent Orange.


But, but, Monsanto says it's safe! Hey!

No poison is safe. It should be handled like it is dangerous and cleaned off of you if it gets on you. I just read the warnings on the bottle I have and it says to wear protective clothing mist mask and goggles. Says it is harmful to people and animals when spraying and wet. It also says to immediately remove clothing after use.
I do not agree with a billion dollar judgement against the company that makes it. Monsanto is not responsible for people misusing their product just like Remington isn't responsible for people shooting someone with their rifles. And Ford wouldn't be responsible if someone drove a ford through a crowd.

DD,

just getting back to this. You raise some valid points. Having fished for a lot of years, non-commercial, which led to an overall interest in fish, which led to a career in fish, which involves some study of water, I understand your concerns as they are mine also.

Some of the he-men around here might want to be concerned with drinking water if they live around certain municipalities, and I wouldn't be surprised if the situation doesn't involve certain aquifers, and therefor private wells, also. Some interesting studies were done on fish (and other organisms I seem to recall) on the effects of female hormones being flushed with the water in the water closet and subsequently getting in the waters of the locality. As any who has studied hormones knows, the amount needed to effect change can be minuscule. And it seems some (many?) ag chemicals, or their derivatives, mimic hormones of various sorts.

Unfortunately,and fortunately in many respects, ours is a profit driven society and I don't see the financial incentive to change course as you put it. The long held belief by many that a technical solution will arise before "we" die out might be the best hope? Sucks for the individuals that don't make it thought. And good portions of future generations might be those individuals.

Ma Nature has a marvelous capacity for taking abuse. But one day even She might get overloaded.

Sorry to hear about your Florida experiences, but I'm not surprised.

Geno

Tell me about some of those alternatives you speak of Digital Dan.

Specifically what legacy would you like to leave behind?

LMFAO.....Just like agent orange, great stuff that only “killed” plants. They sprayed away and my good friend wasted away and died because they sprayed away. He was the third friend that died from cancer attributed to his exposure to the innocuous herbicide. The numbers of guys in his SOF unit that died of cancer was staggering and either they suffered the effects of agent orange or it’s an impossible coincidence.

Jim, I'm silly enough to think if we went to the moon 50 years ago that maybe, just maybe, we have the wit to figure out how to leave the house near about as clean as it was when we arrived. One of the things obvious to me, and perhaps not to the average Joe, is the issues at play are interrelated and very complex. Being a simple minded sort I'd like to think the solutions are of the sort that somewhere along the way we can have one of those "why didn't I think of that?" moments.

Allow me to weave a path for the sake of discussion. OK, so we're in a social construct wherein profit is the holy grail and so forth. One of those supply meet demand and stockholders meet profit kind of things? Here's a scenario for ya. Multinational corporation moves into your back yard and starts mining phosphate. Why? Fertilizer. They dig so many holes it lowers the regional water table significantly. Where does the fertilizer go? 75% of America's demand and 25% of world demand, that's where. Never mind that that 25% of world demand is 75% of their production. Yeah, I know, it's confusing this early in the day. Hang on, it gets more funner as we go.

So, why do we need to fertilize the planet? Well hell, we got to feed the masses, right? Let's suppose that we here in the USA are obligated to do that, so we want to grow like there's no tomorrow. Part of the equation requires greater production for a given piece of dirt, so we fertilize it. Dayum.....where'd all them fuggin' weeds come from? Enter another multinational corporation that has a brilliant idea!!!!! We can phuoc with Ma Nature and make crops that are immune to herbicides and spray chitt out of them pesky weeds! And if that don't work we'll just keep inventing stuff until it does.

The fallout? Elevated nitrate levels in our waters and increasing concentrations of toxic chemicals. Never mind that when you increase the nitrate concentrations it causes proliferation of algae in our waters which leads to other biological aberrations such as flesh eating bacteria. Hey, it's your foot, not mine. And we don't give a chitt about algae, where da fug you think Soylent Green really came from, hey?

Here's the problem as I see it. Increasing nitrate levels cause proliferation of algae in our waters. It occurs because of fertilizer runoff from rain and leeching into the aquifer. The sources are many but primary among them are reliance upon septic tanks in some regions, and agriculture practices which contribute the majority load. The chemical cocktail we are fabricating with pesticide/herbicide application has implications that are to some degree understood, and otherwise a mystery. Nitrate levels have historic norms that are dependent upon region and setting. Here in Florida the prevailing 'natural background' is .05 mg/l. Many of our springs are currently discharging concentrations in the range of 3-8 mg/l. For reference, 5 mg/l is 100 times greater concentration than natural background in my neighborhood. Present day concentrations in more than a few areas of the state exceed the EPA allowable level of 10 mg/l. So, what's the big deal? Elevated NO2/NO3 levels are carcinogenic. Furthermore, there is a growing body of scientific evidence that suggests clearly that levels below the EPA limit have the same characteristics and also promote blue baby syndrome. Somewhere in the 2-5 mg/l range is looking a little risky. Any of you fellas have even a vague idea what it will cost to put a water purification plant in your neighborhood to deal with elevated nitrate? I dunno either, but if you're thinking hundreds of millions you're on the right track.

OMG! WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!

Not necessarily. Take a few minutes and read the article in the link below. If it pans out Mosaic and Monsanto can kiss my cracker ass. The article is about a year old and the grapevine tells me they have been successful in mating nitrogen fixing bacteria to over 50 different crop varieties that currently require fertilizer.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jennys...itrogen-producing-microbes/#4ab47ed13d4b

I don't know it will or will not work. What I do know is that our present path is suicidal. Let's say we're 4th and goal on the 2 yard line and there's 45 seconds left on the clock.

Well, thanks for taking the time to write that down.


I think you are mostly on the right track there.

One thing that I would say is that Production, Profit and responsible farming practices are not mutually exclusive.

While we mostly labor in a Production driven model, a Profit driven model can actually be better for the environment.


Paradoxically, a Production driven model actually leads to hunger for the planet, and decreased or negative profits for the farmer.


A Profit driven model can actually be better for everyone....farmer and consumer anyway. The middle men get left the fugg out!




As far as nitrogen goes, there are several TONS of N above every acre of land on the planet. Yes it makes good sense to utilize this source of N.


However, even this source of N is not stable.



I tend to see the N problem like a balloon with room air in it.



The object of the game is to not let the balloon hit the floor. If it does is it gone Johnson.



The way to keep your N that you have invested large amounts of capital in, is to keep it working in your fields until it is time to use it in a cash crop.


That means using it to feed living roots, or storing it in root crops like radishes or turnips.

Crop residue.....residue that people sometimes burn or till under......is a great source of N....depending on the crop. That gets into the Carbon Nitrogen ratio though....




Something as simple as tilling a field of wheat stubble into the soil is wasting your N and your C.





Well, I could go on for ever.......but I wont.


I am a member of the Regenerative Ag movement. Top guys in the movement are folks like Ray Archuleta, Gabe Brown, Joel Salatin, Jay Furher.




One funny thing....as far as environmentally sound practices......Organic Farming is just as bad as conventional. In my not so humble opinion anyway.


Anyway, thanks again.

Signed,

Militant Farmer and Environmentalist,

Jim F'ing Conrad

On Topic??

Roundup is killing us....just not in the way most folks think.

Figure a way to keep N in the root zone rather than washing away and we would all profit. I hear the state of Iowa is begining the grasp these facts.

Living roots in the soil or storage vessels like turnips and radishes are how you do it.


Other crop nutrients like P and K are largely stable. Bound to the soil and what not. Do they call that Chelated? Not sure.


N is different. If you are not keeping the balloon in the air with crops.....it goes away.



Sterile soils lead to amendments like was being sold in the article you posted.


Someone once said that our soils today are a mere shadow of what they once were. Today's soils are little better than the inert water used in hydroponic agriculture.....they said.


Why not use profitable plants to manage your N rather than expensive amendments?


You then get into the realm of real "sustainability". More production, more profit, more opportunity.

Interesting, go on.

So the off label Sonar app up stream of brackish water killed off the beneficials that were keeping the algae down in that lagoon Dan?

Jim, there's likely more than one way to skin this cat. I'm only suggesting we need to figure the best method(s) and get our asses in gear.

Higbean, I'm not certain what the damning aspect was. I would imagine that sufficiently high concentrations of algae could smother some creature, but I doubt all. My guess is it was a mixture of things that go part and parcel. Low oxygen, toxicity to some of the invertebrates, and no doubt a number of other things I'm unaware of at this point. The algae bloom pictured previously lasted for about 4 weeks during and after the application which was done about a mile east of where the photo was taken. The action involved the rental of a residential dock where a large tank was installed and the Sonar was fed into the river/reservoir via a steady but "controlled" stream. Their controls were a bit suspect. I'm told that use of aquatic herbicides has a tendency to cause a spike in nutrients due to decaying vegetation but don't have a clear understanding of that.

The things that stand out to the average person is the lack of fish, wildlife and fisherman that were relatively abundant prior to this event. Back before this happened we had more otters in the back yard than Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on the door. Anywhere from a couple to 10 fishing boats passing by on a daily basis, mostly bass fishermen. Another footnote in history....

There are certainly many different ways to adress the problem.

Some ways are better than others.

What I am doing on my land is best for a small operation like mine. It is best for me.

It may not be the best for companies trying to sell me ammendments!

Aquatic vegetation in sufficient quantities can tie up excess nutrients and prevent an algea bloom, once the vegetation dies off, the decay process releases and recycles those nutrients back into the water which then feed an algea bloom. A heavy enough bloom can also reduce water clarity to the point where it hinders new vegetation growth.

Jim,

put that 'Militant farmer and Environmentalist" in a signature line for all to see in all your posts. let 'em know where you really stand.

And keep planting them turnips and stuff.

It was interesting, to say the least, to watch some places in E WA go to no till and pulse rotation in their wheat fields. Did not necessarily agree with some of them killing the garbanzos with herbicide so they could harvest all at once (what a local there told me was the reason at least). But, from what I was told by a couple in the industry they cut back substantially on fertilizer (ammonia) use, had to perform less tractor work, and still kept production up.........and of course profit.

Of course, adding garbs, lentils, and peas to the equation requires handling machinery and storage and shipping and buyers/markets and such. Hard for some folks to deal with when they are "wheat" farmers and not militant farmers and environmentalists.

DD, with any luck that river/stream will restore itself, but not likely in any quick sense. Especially if folks continue to keep weeds away from their beaches and docks with herbicides. That system looks pretty fugged up for a bit. And killing off aquatic vegetation quickly has serious serious effects. Algae blooms and crashes kill bunches of fish and other critters. As to elevated N levels in the water and fish.......ask an aquaculturist about brown blood disease.

Geno

Jim,

what you're doing is definitely not good for them amendment companies.

But it's likely you're not heavily invested in them and their bottom line anyway.

Geno