Mixed according to instructions, applied as "best practices", how the hell can this stuff kill people if it won't kill blackberries and wild roses?

I’ve sprayed enough Roundup to kill an army if it is indeed “bad”. So have about all my farmer buddies here. We are in a heavy agricultural area where I live. Zero problems. And yes, we grow a large acreage of Roundup ready crops. No problems with farmers nor their neighbors.

From what I understand the plaintiff brought suit in one of the most liberal friendly areas, which virtually guaranteed a very favorable decision by the jury.

I have sprayed a lot of it over the years and have never thought of drinking it.

I think that folks who were sick thought it might be a good payout.

Still use it today and will tomorrow.

Follow the money... I too, have sprayed gly and Paraquat since the 70's

Might be that like any other herbicide there are things it will and won't kill.

I hear the skepticism you fellas put forth, but suggest that if you crawl deeply into the topic and examine the fine details, you might have a second thought or two. Will suggest further that if you trust Monsanto I have some fine real estate just east of Freeport in the Bahamas I'd like to sell.

Shyster lawyers.

Crossbow will kill it. That's my go to for broadleafs.

Get some of the stuff marketed to kill poison ivy and try it. You could even mix it in with your roundup if you have any left. Should cover more bases.

I only depend on glyphostphate for controlling bladed grasses and weeds.


Mix in some 2,4D together and get the double tap effect.

Squirt in a bottle of Dawn dishwashing liquid to really give an extra 'ooze' factor.

And what the hell, pour in some cypermethrin or permethrin and knock out chiggers or associated annoying arthropods too. Might as well

Ditto.... No worries here.

I've done that too - works very well.

Killing plants is not always straight forward. Couple of weeks ago I did an experiment and sprayed some plain full strength white vinegar from the grocery store on different things. It scorched some unwanted bladed grass just as good as roundup. Other stuff like vines.....I think it fertilized them.

Mr DD,

you sound to me like a learned man.

Enjoy the hurricane when it gets there (almost said "she", but that's no longer the standard case)

Geno

I would think it’s a joke. I’ve sprayed all the chemicals for 25 years and before that grew up on a farm where the sprayer was a car with the body cut off. Tank and booms put on. All the farmers up here did the same. No I did not follow safety directions and most people don’t. I was careful with the bug killers because they would sometimes be dead when you made the next pass. No case has proven this product causes cancer they just got a McDonald’s hot coffee jury in suburbs and went with it. Ed k

Thanks for the tip, I'll try some. Instruction sheet says Roundup is supposed to work on blackberries if applied in late summer, well, not that I can see. But, so far, the blackberries have survived a D-7, an excavator, and fire. I'm convinced the wild roses would survive a tactical nuclear strike.

Equating an herbicides ability to kill a certain species to it’s long term toxicity to mammals is kinda foolish.

The whole Monsanto debacle has been brought to you by the same folks that believe marijuana can cure every illness on the planet, so what does that tell you?

Geno, I was concerned about Dorian certainly, but in response to an email sent to her HQ wherein I threatened to spray Roundup in her eye she asked for a raincheck.

Crossbow totally killed Himalaya blackberries for me this summer. I am still amazed at how dead it killed them. I wore mask and latex gloves and stayed upwind with a back pack tank sprayer on a patch about 75 yards by 3 yards plus some spot bushes.

Plants are tougher than humans. As a species we are fairly weak.

Roundup is my go to for poison ivy and other unwanted plants. No issues. Mainly the ivy. Knocked it dead here.

Im always tellin’ the kids, "dammmmmmn!!!! I can feel the non-Hodgkins lymphoma soaking in!" As I spray away! Yeah they chuckle.

The asswhole that won the lawsuit admitted to letting himself be soaked in it which the directions explicitly tell you not to.


Don't take a shower in it and you're just fine, Fugging lawyers anyways.

I for one minute do not believe even a good soaking in roundup will hurt you. The LD-50 of 2-4D on mammals is much much lower than is the LD-50 of glyphosate.

2-4D is much more toxic than is glyphosate. So why aren't the lawyers going after 2-4D?

Answer, because 2-4D is not part and parcel to any evil GMO plot! can you hear the irony?

Well stated Sir!

I do believe that you’d agree with the premise that napalm is a more thorough and much more fun herbicide.

I’ve been driving for 33 years and I have yet to be killed or paralyzed in an auto accident so based upon the logic applied here by other’s, fatalities and serious bodily injury arising from auto accidents are virtually impossible to suffer. I’ve used roundup too and I haven’t as yet developed cancer so it must be safe. 🙄

PS.....my sympathies for “family farmers” that suck on the teat of Monsanto for their seed and for the poisons they use on our food can KMA. I don’t personally have any animosity but I have no patience for their bullshit defense of Monsanto or their impulsive defense of the “farming techniques” they use.

There’s a good reason why “organic” is becoming HUGE and the tasteless, unripe, crap that’s foisted upon those without the ability to grow their own food is becoming less desirable. We grow a lot and buy or trade with other local organic farmers either through our connections or at the local farmers market.

I have always respected farmers but many of them have become partners with the devil (Monsanto) and because of that, along with their endless “woe is me” bullshit whining I’ve come to see the bigger corporate farmers as nothing more than a liberal democrat in a King Ranch pickup with their hand out for as much welfare handouts as their greedy, fat asses can gobble.

This is hilarious....

But at least it's another piece in the puzzle of a dude portraying them self as a conservative, redneck gun guy, that unfortunately lives in Communist Western Washington......

When in fact they are a greenie, left, organic, cob wiper.



You did have us fooled for a while, but you are clearly showing your true colors for the last few months.

Later.

What's funny is the greenies
don't like tillage.
The answer is roundup.
The greenies want no-till cropping.
The answer is roundup.
The greenies don't want noxious weeds to grow.
The answer is roundup.
The greenies don't want summer fallow dirt.
The answer is roundup.
The greenies don't like erosion in the fields.
The answer is roundup.
Even non-gmo....
The answer is roundup.

Well said.

I have to wonder how many here still think that cigs don't cause cancer.
I had roundup get on my hand after it got past my glove and my tongue went numb for half the day. At that time I had no real idea of the stuff's toxicity. I found out through simple experience.
Some people can tolerate the stuff; others can't.

Many of us don't agree with multi-billion dollar settlements, most lawyers and many plaintiffs are snakes, but the stuff is poison to some people and to much of the environment.

The shysters look for deep pockets, then a reason to sue.

I’m guessing that more people die front allergic reaction to peanut butter than roundup. Facts not emotion should rule the day. Ed k

...

Wow, that there calls for a double blind study. Immediate and substantial nerve toxicity from incidental exposure to Roundup?

Not doubting that is what you believe happened. But I might expect to see the same happen again with a placebo.

Oh yes, I have e experienced the tongue and nose thing. After a six pack of beer. And after heavy exposure to pyrethroid insecticides.

I have been exposed to lots of high density pyrethroids, and have developed a sensitivity to them. It takes very little now to make my tongue tingle.

But there is no shared chemistry between pyrethroids and Roundup.

The LD-50 of material does not directly correlate to its cancer causation. LD-50 is a acute test not chronic exposure. You can have a compound that is immediately dangerous to life and health and it is not always a carcinogen. Cancer risk factor is like rolling dice. Each time your exposed to a carcinogen its like rolling the dice. So the more times your exposed, the more rolls of the dice. You may always roll wins every time you use roundup and get it on your hands or breathe the vapor. The people who get cancer roll a loser. Take gasoline,.the more times you breathe the fumes or put it on your hands the more rolls of the dice. Its your roll. I tell people with young kids this all the time when they are fumigating their kids with RAID and other pesticides and garden herbicides. They all laugh, until one of theirs get cancer, then wow, they start to listen.

People laughed about cigs, vaping, perchloroetheylene and dry cleaning, agent orange, DDT, on and on. This thread is like a broken record.

I spent some time researching this the other day. It seems that there was only one study that made a link to cancer, but when it was reviewed more in depth about the data, it appears the data was cherry picked to support the findings. There were many, many, many other studies by more reputable organizations that found no link at all.

Placebo?! lol!!
With all due respect, the sh t got on my skin and my tongue went instantly numb. That's never happened to me ever in my life with any substance. To me it is poison; you can use it, drink it, splash it on your salad. I want no part of it.
My wife has used the stuff and trace amounts blew onto her legs and she had an instant rash. That's our 'double blind' test. Grin.

I'm not going to change anyone's mind here, and no one will change mine. Anything that wipes out all living vegetation for a year can't be healthy to human tissue. Period.

I mixed up 30 gallons of Roundup and 2-4-D this morning to spray some fencerows with. Got some on my hands because I always forget to put my rubber gloves on. I need to remember them the next time, of I'm gonna die pretty soon.

I've only been using it since it first came on the market in the mid 1970's. At one time it was worth it's weight in gold, and you didn't dare spill a drop. Today, I can buy a 2 1/2 gallon jug of generic Roundup for about $35.

I have this string of dead spots across my lawn. Wife was determined to kill off those aspen or birch suckers coming up (I just mow over them.) and grabbed the first "weed killer" she saw. (I am ALWAYS on her case about reading labels!). It was Roundup.

So now we have all these brown spots with one little live tree sucker in them..... sort of "water here" bullseyes....

And by the way, if u use the "grass-safe". Weed-B-Gone -be sure it is in it's diluted form. The concentrate used straight works about as well as Roundup.

Ask me how I know......

Good thing I have dogs crapping on the lawn..those dark green spots (If I get it picked up in time- otherwise it's dead spots), sort of average things out....

I used to wash car parts with gasoline, no gloves, and wire brush occasionally scraping my hands as I cleaned the parts.

I had my hand in a hydraulic oil tank for nearly 45 minutes trying to get the filter out that someone had overtightened. My arm was red and covered with tiny zit like bumps for a few days.

I grabbed many fish and other biological specimens directly from the formalin preservative buckets with bare hands before it was established it probably isn't a good thing to do.

Painted in enclosed places with spray paint, used brake cleaner spray on older brake parts that likely had asbestos linings, love the smell of gasoline and would stand where I could smell it when pumping gas, drank alcoholic beverages ( basically a solvent) while chewing and smoking tobacco products, have been exposed to Chloramine T and iodine at places I worked along with many other "everyday chemicals". I could probably think of many more.

I kinda think prairie creek station is working along the right lines here. I try to avoid too many rolls of the dice nowadays, having survived a renal cell carcinoma (one of my body's filters, dealing with all that stuff I've been exposed to.

Did any (or any combination?) of that stuff "cause" my cancer? Who the heck knows.

I wear gloves now when handling used motor oil, automotive chemicals, "roundup" when I have occasionally had to use it ( I HATE puncture vine) but I use a weed burner when and where I can, use borax instead of Raid for ants, soap for whiteflies and aphids, and take other measures to avoid using "chemicals" when I can.

DDT was once considered safe for personal use. I'm kinda glad they took off the market in the US of A. Even when there are days here I'd love to spray the yard with it for the f'n skeeters.

Long term, no-one knows the real effects of most of the stuff used nowadays. Our cohort's grandkids might find out.

Geno

PS lead and mercury used to be considered "harmless" mostly. Played with that stuff some too.Don't anymore.

PPS and let's not forget Homeowner Harry and his use of yard chems. if an ounce per gallon works, 4 ounces works more better. And if a gallon is 'sposed to cover 1000 sf, well I'll use two. Then it even works betterer.

Your tongue went numb with exposure to concentrate or mix application solution?

I've been blasted directly in the face underneath houses with Chlorpyrifos organophosphate termiticide. DOZENS AND DOZENS of times. Had it on my hands and arms almost daily for several yrs.

methyl carbamate, synthetic pyrethroids, or org-phosphates, pyrethrum, fungicides,


So far no twitches or tremors. Maybe a tick or shimmer but that could be present meds.


Did have one retired Lt Colonel, an administrative career man, I'd spray his home monthly for fleas.

He'd have to go play on the bush hogg or spin wrenches on his project cars for several hours after I treated his home. First time I showed up he started sounding like Sylvestor the Cat all sufferin succotash and chit. Said his tounge was going numb.

Years ago I helped my dad spray Rodeo (glyphosate without the surfactant) on cattails at his place, we had the 55 gallon sprayer set up in the back of the pick up, I would drive along the edge while he sprayed out of the back of the truck. We came to a narrow spot with high cedar limb blocking the way, he tried lift the limb high enough to clear the cab and got knocked backwards into the sprayer when I moved the truck forward, in the fall he broke a plastic fitting next to the valve and got sprayed directly in the mouth, he was complaining about numbness in his lips before we got back to the house to get his mouth and face rinsed. To this day he complains about the slight numbness he still has in his lips from that exposure and that was at least 15 years ago. Not sure if it was the glyphosate or the nonionic surfactant we mixed in with it but I'm sure the batch was mixed a little on the hot side.

Sounds like that Chuck dude on Better Call Saul.

Okay, 1'st: You apparently have no idea what Roundup does or how it works. It absolutely does not "wipe out vegetation for a year". Roundup has zero pre-emergent or ground sterilization properties. The bacteria in the soil metabolize Roundup to nothing in a matter of hours or possibly days.

Roundup kills by contact with green vegetation. Or, in one case that I am familiar with, mixed with irrigation water and taken up by the roots.

Every other herbacide out there is more dangerous than Roundup. And if you take Roundup away, it will be replaced by those others, and in greater quantities because they are less efficacious. Thank God we have Roundup available instead.

As to your reaction to the chemical and your wife's reaction. If I was a betting man, as the saying goes, I'd be betting on contaminants in the spray equipment from previous use with insecticides. Many insecticides are actually nerve toxins. Absent that possibility, anxiety/panic attacks.

Somebody mentioned DDT. DDT is pretty much harmless to humans. They used to apply the powder directly to humans quite frequently with no noticeable ill effects. DDT was removed from the market, not because it was substantially harmfull to humans, but because it was VERY persistant in the environment. And it was linked to thin egg shells in eagles.

Ever notice those Lawyer Ads on TV. Not a single one of them claim Roundup is confirmed as a carcinogen. They state "it is listed as a POSSIBLE carcinogen by the WHO." If they had any real data the ad sure as hell would not say possible,

Horsesh*t., I know exactly how it works, I've extensively studied the stuff as much as a non-chemist can and have an understanding. After what i experienced I educated myself about the product from all sides.
Roundup has a very unique acid/salt-based molecular structure that is particularly nasty and likely toxic well beyond a myriad of cancers.

The problem is the stuff has been politicized. Enviro-freaks scream about the stuff with zero understanding, Lawyers want their pound of flesh, and likewise Monsanto cronies and those who value the product regardless of effects, extol it as well.

There isn't much middle ground, people love it or hate it.

This thread reminds me of something Rush Limbaugh once said, I'm a huge Rush fan, but when he once commented that second hand smoke was a hoax, and that it posed no health risks to young kids forced to breathe it, I knew that sometimes even smart people are completely full of sh t.

Ya think this is maybe why you transport your nutz in a wheelbarrow................

Roundup has no carry over. If it does not hit a plant before it hits the ground it is inactive. I asked Monsanto to make some that would last a while on the ground to stop future weeds and was told they would like to but it was impossible because of its makeup. Ed k

Better living through chemistry, hey?

Take awhile and read the registration decisions penned by EPA on your favorite whackocide. They are available online via EPA's web site. After that ask yourself what is implied, and ignored.

Then explain why herbicide and pesticide trace of virtually all varieties is found in our aquifer. Perhaps it can be revealed what happens when one or more of these chemicals meet up in the wild? Sort of like mixing 2,4D and 2,4,5T if you get my drift.

A little education never hurts, but Monsanto won't provide that.

I guess most of you guys that think 2, 4D & Round-Up are completely harmless must have forgotten about Agent Orange.

Roundup is probably the safest broad spectrum herbicide we have right now.

We should be using much....much less of it.

Much less.

My neighbor had a mix of Laudis and Roundup sprayed on his corn early this summer, Laudis will provide residual control, this was the second round of spraying on the field near our house. The first round of pre-planting spray was a mixture of 2,4-D, Atrizene, and fertilizer.

https://www.cropscience.bayer.us/Products/herbicides/laudis/label-msds

"Lawyers are boils upon the neck of society that prevent it from turning its head from right to left!"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

DD,

The formulations of the pesticides under discussion here are freely available for anyone interested to look. And there are literally thousands of eager young Organic Chemistry students every year who would love nothing better than to come up with definitive proof that any one of those pesticides is the evil spawn of Satan that the greenies like to claim they are. That would be their ticket to fame, fortune, and possibly a Nobel Laureate.

So far, none of these eager young students have been able to discern anything noteworthy where Roundup is concerned.

Where'd you hear that?

I don't really give a flip about eager chemistry students.

There's a fairly popular herbicide on the market that creates somewhere around 7-8 carcinogenic compounds during its natural degradation in the environment. It's approved for use by EPA and the cascade is represented in the registration decision. Do you know which one it is?

Wise words.

From a smart man,
Not a zealot.


Good, bad, or indifferent, I have experienced the numb lips and tongue from
chemical exposure. Not Roundup, but chemicals at work.

I have experienced skin burns from concentrated glyphosate.
Obviously I didn't follow PPE protocol and procedures.
But the point is, that chit gave me the only chemical burns I've ever
had from such a small, short term exposure.

And I have been splashed by many solvents, and phenolic based resins.

One of the "inert" ingredients in Roundup and other herbicides.

Polyethoxylated tallow amine

I have seeded crops into the field only a couple hours after spraying them with a full rate of roundup. Wheat-durum-barley-canola-flax-field peas. No effect on any of them. No carry over. Ed k

EPA can't find schit.

https://www.epa.gov/ingredients-used-pesticide-products/glyphosate

The antis tried for YEARS to link 2,4-d to non-hodgkins lymphoma and never could.

Roundup is a Paper Tiger and nothing more.

Here in CA they have found a small handful of ground applied herbicide trace in the aquifer but nothing like your "virtually all varieties".

That is scary sh t right there, and it's why many of us are doing our best to grow our own food and beef.

A couple weeks ago the guy I lease from was pouring some concrete blocks to put on the cultivator. He grabbed a hose and put on the spray nozzle, went back and turned the valve on. The nozzle was open so he ran to catch it before it sprayed all over. What was coming out of the hose was 100% Roundup. He had used it to fill the sprayer and forgot about it. He was soaked from head to toe. It was in his eyes and mouth.

He’s 76 years old.

Would three days make it not "scary sh t"?

Roundups ionic charge is positive compared to the soil and is tied up instantly.

The meristems would have to be present AND sprayed with the solution for uptake to even occur upon which the seed would shut down and not grow into food.

I think it's great you wanna grow your own food, but telling guys that are using legal practices to grow crops that their way is "scary sh t" is akin to Joe Biden telling you to buy a side by side shotgun for home defense.

While I understand and accept what you are saying, the fact of the matter is that the majority of grains in our country are currently laced with 'Glyphosate' based compounds. Whether you realize it or not these are literally poisoning our children at an alarming rate if only for the fact that it's easier to spray and walk away than any other weed prevention method. I'm all for using the latest technology, but when it comes to inflicting lingering pain and suffering upon our children I disagree. Maybe you have a better view of Bayer, Monsanto, etc...but, I have read their decades long approaches to 'profit', and I don't find it acceptible for my children, nor for the children of my countrymen. YMMV.

Do you really trust the EPA to be forthcoming on ANYTHING meaningful when it comes to health..? We already know they lied about global warming how many times? You should know better by now...

If I may, why would you suggest that these eager young student would be allowed to study such, if not paid to study the opposite of such. Eager, young students are usually looking for a payday, or internship with a reputable company. Making a grand expose of a major pharmaceutical company is more akin to exposing the deep state, which leads to many avenues of suicide... or are you not capable of being fruitfully honest..?

i will scare you even more than because you can also plant your crop and spray it anytime before it emerges and it won’t be hurt. Scary stuff huh. Ed k

Just another conspiracy theory not unlike Q Anon with enough tidbits to keep the true believers frothing at the mouth.

Stating beliefs as “matter of fact”, creating terms like “whackocide” and the “it’s for the children” mantra are all sadly out of the leftist playbook and sound entirely too much like the gun grabbers we all despise.

You should know this by now.....

More children will be saved by getting rid of soda pop and giving them good home cooked food than by worrying about round up which has been used for 30 years now. Obesity is a major killer in the USA. Edk

If something will kill a plant, bug or small animal it will kill you too, it just takes a lot longer.

How do the plaintiffs go about proving that their N-H Lymphoma has been caused exclusively by Glyph? There isn't a farmer, rancher, applicator, Gardner, groundskeeper, lawn care worker, landscaper, etc, etc, etc, that doesn't also use dozens of other chemicals. Not to mention gasoline fumes/spillage into small engines, exhaust exposure to gas and diesel powered equipment. Anyone putting any tool into the dirt could be exposed to shallow natural gas, IIRC in ND 52 of 53 counties have "significant" shallow natural gas. So much exposure to so many potential carcinogens.

I'm not on "Monsanto's side", but I'm much more worried about gas station or grocery store "fresh" Spring Rolls than I am about Glyph.

Sir,
I mean this in a good way.

If you actually believe this to be true and want to keep your children absolutely safe,
you should never shop again at any store, roadside stand or any other source of grocery product.
Even canned, frozen or freeze dried food is not acceptable, as you have no control over what went in it.

Hell, at a farmers market full of "organic" everything, how much is REALLY "organic"?
Do you trust your children's life with me telling you "sure, it's only organic here"?
I mean, I can double the price of my product by just telling you it's organic.

You need to produce every morsel that goes into your family's mouth, to be absolutely safe.
So I hope you have some land.

No restaurants either...ever. Not even on birthday's.

Of course, at the absolute safe level, your countrymen's children and the world's are SOL.

Look up shykemic acid pathway. This is an enzymatic process by which plants and microorganisms synthesize some proteins.

Glyphosate interrupts this enzymatic process, which kills the plant. Animals do not have this process to interupt.

Amazing as it is to some, biochemistry differs between animals and plants. What is poison to one can very well be harmless to the other.

I worked for Monsanto a couple of years in the early days of "Roundup". I was a lab technician in the Chocolate Bayou Chemical Plant, where the raw material for Roundup was produced. While we were always instructed to use care when handing anything Roundup related, these precautions were not excessive for "normal" chem lab operations. Basically, I worked with "worse" stuff in my plant career, and while in research. I'm 69 this year, still in good health, so it wan't too bad for me. But I was never careless.

Mike Holmes

And you do love your children, don’t you????

Seems to me that if Round up were really a deadly carcinogen, cancer rates would be through the roof if farmers have been using it since the 1970's. That is not the case. One of my favorite Uncles died of Non-Hodgkins Lymphoma about 6 years ago. The oncologists have no idea what causes it......but ambulance chasing lawyers managed to convince a jury of dumb Americans that Round up does? Sorry, don't buy it.

As to "organic food" that is probably a bigger scam than anything. I've made enough attempts at organic gardening as a backyard gardener to know that it would be next to impossible to do it on a big time agricultural scale. People would starve if they tried it. Chemical fertilizers and bug juice is why farmers are able to produce the staggering amounts that they do now days. Oh and hybridized plants too. What are they supposed to do....scatter chicken crap over those enormous corn fields in the Midwest? Probably not enough fish in the ocean for them to use fish meal. Come on man!

Didn't know we had food fetishists on the Campfire.

My stepdad was in ag chem sales in California from El Centro to Redding for Stauffer and Chevron. He took the time to train me on mixing and using various fertilizers, herbicides and pesticides, and we would go afield on road trips and ground truth things. On a huge, huge scale. Feeding the world scale, actually.

I can make things grow, and I can kill them just as easily. Safely. Those scumbags pandering for Roundup clients should be forced to buy foods not grown using Roundup. They'd starve.

I wish the student body well in all endeavors. Any discoveries made in the classroom are nothing more than a catalyst for further research.

It won't....
The massive adds all stem from California law suit that they awarded a guys family money...as I understand they couldn't prove it wasn't from roundup put couldn't prove it was either....
If roundup caused cancer there would be dead farmers everywhere....I spray 350 gal of concentrate a year..
It's a dig on Monsanto , as they are the forerunner of everything GMO...

Back in about 2008 I watches on span the world food council meeting....it was very interesting....I think you can find it on you tube..
Any way they were beating the GMO drum pretty hard...
One rep ....sounded German maybe....told them there is no more land we are farming all that possible we at current population growth will be out of food in 30 years...you better get used to GMO or starve...we can't feed the world without it...

Clueless!

This topic certainly energizes you fellas!

Problem is however that the subject is far more complex than most realize. It's a mix of chemistry, hydrology, geology, biology and politics. What could go wrong, hey?

Some time after coffee in the morning I'll pass along a few things for consideration...

Non-Hodgkin lymphoma is the most common form of blood cancer, so it's no wonder all the "Roundup lawsuit" ads are focused around that diagnosis.

I bet it ultimately goes the same way as the silicone breast implant lawsuit years ago. Later studies and evidence showed no link. Do you think the plaintiffs and lawyers ever gave the money back?

Beast implant lawsuit ethics

I was in the Belly of the Beast (Monsanto in St. Louis) when rr first stated. We were shown the Frankenstein process used. Actually they had a unit about a foot high or so and they showed us how it worked. After removing a gene from a plant that was resistant to round they used a blank 22 cartridge to imbed it in seed. Didn’t scare me at all. No the natural plant they use to get the gene won’t kill you either. Ed k

There are entire investment funds (like stocks) that feed money for speculative litigation. This money is used to fund Infomercials, studies and sway public opinion in certain areas to help "soften" the jury pools and court districts. The lawyers then shop for a court in that area to take their case. Just like we're seeing after the California court case, it opens the floodgate for additional suits. The lawyers then simply refer to the previous winning verdict. It's a winning formula for the lawyers and the investments funds help fuel it.

Calisto 24d and atrazine all hang around some....cllisto and lautis are similar products...round up is glysophate. The product is pretty much worthless these days....the weeds have genetically modifyed to it on there own...we just use it for grass now...
Of all the chemicals mentioned only Atrazne requires an applicators license to buy or apply...what does that tell you...

👍👍👍 [bleep] you aces
You've said odd things here before but move north. You reject at Canadian liberal

Now that glyphosate has been over used and misused.....the boys are buying Paraquat by the shuttle!


None of that schit for me thanks!


My spraying equipment is so old that I cant safely apply it anyhow.



Spraying is lame.

Round up was the stuff to use the last 30 years.....

Raise your hand if you haven’t used it. Lol

So we sprayed a lot of agent orange on the farm years ago. Obviously we were not spraying ourselves with it like in Vietnam, but we used cautions, gloves to mix it with etc.... Watched the wind, overspray and so on.

Most of these lawsuits come from mis use IMHO and a healthy dose of stupidity mixed in with that mis use.

Remember too much water can kill you. Not sure who we sue over that though unless I drink bottled, I could sue or relatives could sue Ozarka I guess.....

Well, let's call this a "who do you trust" line of discussion just for giggles.

The head of EPA is an appointee, not an elected official. As such it is reasonable to anticipate bias one way or the other in the development of Federal code, that being the vehicle for enforcement of Federal law. You feeling warm and fuzzy yet?

So Congress passes a law and the appropriate agency writes the code and that's how it all moves forward. Is it the scientists or lawyers that write the code? I know, silly question,but there you have it.

So along comes company X who wishes to market a product covered by the code. They submit the application, it gets reviewed and questions are asked. The applicant provides the answers. And so it goes, lawyers on both sides putting the fine touch in the dialog, back and forth, over and over again, until a decision is made by the regulators.

Page 1 of my thoughts, additional tidbits around the corner. Will leave one thing for your consideration.

If the label of herbicide X stipulates it may not be applied to estuarine environments for aquatic plant management is the contractor violating that restriction by application 6 miles upstream in a coastal river?

What does the “herbicide x” label say regarding application to a coastal river?

Rather hard to make a judgement on that without a label or even the name of the product Dan.

In regards to lawyers vs scientists, who writes the label an SDS?

Who wrote FIFRA for that matter?

"Do not apply in tidewater/brackish water."

Black and white. The brand is Sonar, manufactured by SeaPro.

Well, the poison ivy I sprayed week before last is as dead as Julius Caesar this week!

Another happy success story!

And remember you can’t spell success without "suc"!

I just h ad a conversation with an organic farmer. They are thinking of seeding everything to grass. She said crops have been very poor. No doubt. She said something is wrong with the soil. Ya! Used up all the nutrients and nothing left for crops. What that doesn’t get the weeds from not spraying do. They are organic farming and selling a little pot on the side. Like the sprays and fertilizer or not th at is how we all get enough to eat. Ed k

She's not much of a 'farmer' if she didn't know she needs to fertilize her ground.
Two words, cow sh t.


Try again.

They have organic beef also. All the cow sh t goes on the fields. If you study that it requires about 10 cows per acre of field to fertilize properly.Takes a big herd for a couple thousand acres. Not very realistic. Ed k

You dont need cow schit
..but it helps.

Living roots in the soil are enough...just takes time.

The organic farmers here all use a lot of either hog manure, or turkey liter. Both are loaded with antibiotics.

LMFAO.....Solid work champ!

Did you and wageslave graduate from the same preschool or did you two Einsteins just get too much roundup in your sippy cups?

If you buy any food products you are problably on the Monsanto tit. Any cooking oil or wheat products or beer or pasta products or breads(multi grain or whatever you are there with everybody else. In case you didn’t know it the University ag departments also charge for the use of the seeds they developed. Nothing free in this world. Somebody h as to invest in development of grains and somebody has to pay them to do it. Ed k

Well, I'm back with a few other tidbits to gnaw on.

A short synopsis of my last post sounds like this: I would not trust EPA as far as I could throw them in regards to this conversation, nor the state agencies that in theory administer the regulations they come up with. This implies of course that my distrust has little to do with the science, but rather the administration. There are so many stones they do not turn over in their decision making process it is perfectly laughable.

To the point referenced above about application of Sonar in what may or may not be construed as a label violation. I asked a simple question. Was it a label violation or not? A yes or no will suffice. In 1989 the state designated the system pictured below as Outstanding Florida Waters. It is, or was a vital component of the local economy for aquatic recreation to include swimming and fishing, both fresh and salt water.

1995


2008 when the Sonar was applied upstream.


A complaint was filed with EPA who in turn forwarded it to the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services, the primary point being that it was applied to estuarine waters. FDACS said, no, it was applied to a system reservoir immediately upstream. Case closed. The river pictured above is DEAD and has been since this event.

My point is fairly simple, the system that so many think is functional, is not. I will reiterate a previous suggestion. Read the friggin' registration decisions. FYI, EPA considers herbicides and pesticides as one in this discussion.
https://www.epa.gov/pesticide-registration
http://npic.orst.edu/reg/register.html

Are these things carcinogenic? Yes, no, perhaps, who knows?

Does "L/Dxx" mean that all life forms will respond the same to a given dose? Not a chance in hell. That includes you. They examine a variety of life forms, to include micro/macro invertebrates, plant life, wild life etc. They do not examine all. The concept of lethal dose (L/D) means that the designated life form population percentage designated (L/D 50 = 50%) will expire in a relatively short time, such as 24 hours as example. It has nothing to do with carcinogenic properties. Do they examine carcinogenic compound presence? Yes, but only to a limited degree, ie, first tier. That means if a compound is not carcinogenic it gets a green light, even if it degrades into something that is.

Herbicide/pesticide chemicals leach into the aquifer, and in many cases their degradation process halts while entombed in sand/clays/sediments/limerock etc. The Sonar mentioned above has a "half life" of approximately 7 days. It has not been applied within the river system since 2008, yet it is still present in water quality investigations. Oh, it is a low concentration to be sure, even lower than the application concentration target of 12 parts/billion.

You interested in some more info? Take a look at the link below, specifically at page 21. Approximately 75% of the flows in this river originate from springs and baseflow. That is a fancy way of saying "the aquifer". One and the same source as our drinking water. You wont see glyphosate there because the samples were not tested for it..
https://www.warinconline.com/content/files/LWR_Phase%202_Interim%20Report%20070318.pdf

Did ya know that inhalation of a single molecule of plutonium can lead to lung cancer?
Are you tougher than me? How about your kids?

The point I'm trying to make is simple. These chemicals have a place to be sure, but there is seriously good reason to be skeptical about those who regulate their manufacture and use. The same mindset that gave us Agent Orange is still busy at work and highly influenced by political winds. Dreamed up by our buddy LBJ and put to use yet it was counterproductive in the battle field and dunned the taxpayers an awful lot of money when all was said and done. The chemists said they could make if faster with the use of heat though that would increase the concentration of dioxin significantly. Probably over $100 billion later we're still paying for it.

For those of you thinking about a visit to Floriduh be advised there are two rivers in the state that are discharging dioxin as a by product of pulp mill operations. The state has declined to set limits on this stream of pollution despite the certain consequences. Thank you Governor Senator Scott.

Politics and science are a seriously bad mix.

An hour has passed since I opened this and started to read, then ate dinner, put the chickens up, cleaned out the dog's pool and refilled it, and had dessert.

No comments to your latest post DD. Must be because in a very real way you're implying "ecosystem" effects, unknown ones at that. Bad juju around here with some folks methinks.

RE: your Sonar/river issue. Has the State/Feds defined "estuarine"? Or even "apply". By putting it in the reservoir upstream did they "apply" the chemical to "estuarine" waters? Mmmmmmn? Lawyers would likely have a field day with that one.

I'm like you, don't trust them agencies much, especially regarding "big business" tie ins. Not sure what we would do without them though. Go back to the late 1800 and have modern day "chemical barons"?

While reading your latest post with the pics, I began to wonder if some here might think you've been playing with and exposing yourself to too much lead. Perhaps some mercury too, added to make them bullets shinier or something.

Take care, I enjoyed reading your perspective on this topic.

Geno

Helllooo! It's plant poison not people poison. No way can this stuff hurt you, your children, your grandchildren, etc... Spray away.

BP...

Crossbow mixed full strength with full strength Round-Up is my go to for blackberries. I mix in a bit of dye to make sure I get the stuff I don't and not the stuff I do. Still a constant battle.

Geno, yeah, the lawyers can run amok with such things. I'll leave that to them.

Ecosystem effects are one of the issues I have concerns about. If one where to think you just spray it a little, it does its job and vanishes they would be very misinformed. Don't get me confused with bunny huggers. I like them fried, thanks.

One will find that virtually w/o exception the array of herbicides in use in this country do not simply vanish after use. If they find their way into soils or sediments via runoff or leaching into the aquifer they become stable until released elsewhere thru natural processes. The document linked above containing the long list of such things found in local waters is far from comprehensive and the major contributor for all pollutants listed is local Ag activities. These things attack micro/macro invertebrates to various degrees in the process and as a result the food chain foundation develops a few cracks along the way. I look at it as an economic issue primarily and one of priorities.

Back around 2008 the Florida DEP issued the 305B report IAW the Clean Water Act and part of that included the 303d List (impaired waters). At that time the state claimed that virtually all coastal inshore waters were impaired for a variety of reasons, and more than 80% of inland waters as well. It is a circumstance common across the USA these days. The executive summary of the 303d List included estimated contribution of the state's waters to our annual gross product. For inland and near shore coastal waters the number was in excess of $600 billion. Ag contribution estimates are estimated around $100 billion annually. Simple to figure out which goose laid the golden egg, no? 50 years ago most of our waters were relatively clean, the springs were clear and wildlife abundant. Toxic algae outbreaks on our coasts were unheard of and not 1/10th of a percent of the residents had ever heard of flesh eating bacteria. Those days are gone.

Back in the late '70s to early '80s I had a day job as a corporate pilot and night job as a commercial fisherman on the east coast of Florida. My income from fishing was over twice that of the flying job, working 3-4 nights/week at the former. You can't catch a frickin' cold in those waters these days unless one is inclined to dance in the rain around January....nude.

To reiterate my point(s) or perhaps clarify them a bit, we have some serious issues at hand that will require some hard choices to be made, this on a national level. If we, as a people, put it on the ground, it's going to have consequences. If we take steps to make things greener, bug & weed free, it has consequences. I don't have any reason to think that Roundup has had direct impact of a negative sort on my life, but am remarkably skeptical about the idea that it is innocent across the broad reach of this country. It is a poison and its residue is in our food. It is not a legacy I want to pass on to future generations, and I know for a fact there are alternatives. Question is, do we have the strength to change course?

BTW, I have survived 3 bouts with cancer, two of which were lymphomas. My doc is perplexed each year I drop by for a checkup. You see, I was supposed to be dead 8 years ago.

So are many of us.
And Strength? Judging from the many on this thread, hell no.
These are the same tough guys who smoke Chesterfield king non-filters and who would have bathed in Agent Orange.


But, but, Monsanto says it's safe! Hey!

No poison is safe. It should be handled like it is dangerous and cleaned off of you if it gets on you. I just read the warnings on the bottle I have and it says to wear protective clothing mist mask and goggles. Says it is harmful to people and animals when spraying and wet. It also says to immediately remove clothing after use.
I do not agree with a billion dollar judgement against the company that makes it. Monsanto is not responsible for people misusing their product just like Remington isn't responsible for people shooting someone with their rifles. And Ford wouldn't be responsible if someone drove a ford through a crowd.

DD,

just getting back to this. You raise some valid points. Having fished for a lot of years, non-commercial, which led to an overall interest in fish, which led to a career in fish, which involves some study of water, I understand your concerns as they are mine also.

Some of the he-men around here might want to be concerned with drinking water if they live around certain municipalities, and I wouldn't be surprised if the situation doesn't involve certain aquifers, and therefor private wells, also. Some interesting studies were done on fish (and other organisms I seem to recall) on the effects of female hormones being flushed with the water in the water closet and subsequently getting in the waters of the locality. As any who has studied hormones knows, the amount needed to effect change can be minuscule. And it seems some (many?) ag chemicals, or their derivatives, mimic hormones of various sorts.

Unfortunately,and fortunately in many respects, ours is a profit driven society and I don't see the financial incentive to change course as you put it. The long held belief by many that a technical solution will arise before "we" die out might be the best hope? Sucks for the individuals that don't make it thought. And good portions of future generations might be those individuals.

Ma Nature has a marvelous capacity for taking abuse. But one day even She might get overloaded.

Sorry to hear about your Florida experiences, but I'm not surprised.

Geno

Tell me about some of those alternatives you speak of Digital Dan.

Specifically what legacy would you like to leave behind?

LMFAO.....Just like agent orange, great stuff that only “killed” plants. They sprayed away and my good friend wasted away and died because they sprayed away. He was the third friend that died from cancer attributed to his exposure to the innocuous herbicide. The numbers of guys in his SOF unit that died of cancer was staggering and either they suffered the effects of agent orange or it’s an impossible coincidence.

Jim, I'm silly enough to think if we went to the moon 50 years ago that maybe, just maybe, we have the wit to figure out how to leave the house near about as clean as it was when we arrived. One of the things obvious to me, and perhaps not to the average Joe, is the issues at play are interrelated and very complex. Being a simple minded sort I'd like to think the solutions are of the sort that somewhere along the way we can have one of those "why didn't I think of that?" moments.

Allow me to weave a path for the sake of discussion. OK, so we're in a social construct wherein profit is the holy grail and so forth. One of those supply meet demand and stockholders meet profit kind of things? Here's a scenario for ya. Multinational corporation moves into your back yard and starts mining phosphate. Why? Fertilizer. They dig so many holes it lowers the regional water table significantly. Where does the fertilizer go? 75% of America's demand and 25% of world demand, that's where. Never mind that that 25% of world demand is 75% of their production. Yeah, I know, it's confusing this early in the day. Hang on, it gets more funner as we go.

So, why do we need to fertilize the planet? Well hell, we got to feed the masses, right? Let's suppose that we here in the USA are obligated to do that, so we want to grow like there's no tomorrow. Part of the equation requires greater production for a given piece of dirt, so we fertilize it. Dayum.....where'd all them fuggin' weeds come from? Enter another multinational corporation that has a brilliant idea!!!!! We can phuoc with Ma Nature and make crops that are immune to herbicides and spray chitt out of them pesky weeds! And if that don't work we'll just keep inventing stuff until it does.

The fallout? Elevated nitrate levels in our waters and increasing concentrations of toxic chemicals. Never mind that when you increase the nitrate concentrations it causes proliferation of algae in our waters which leads to other biological aberrations such as flesh eating bacteria. Hey, it's your foot, not mine. And we don't give a chitt about algae, where da fug you think Soylent Green really came from, hey?

Here's the problem as I see it. Increasing nitrate levels cause proliferation of algae in our waters. It occurs because of fertilizer runoff from rain and leeching into the aquifer. The sources are many but primary among them are reliance upon septic tanks in some regions, and agriculture practices which contribute the majority load. The chemical cocktail we are fabricating with pesticide/herbicide application has implications that are to some degree understood, and otherwise a mystery. Nitrate levels have historic norms that are dependent upon region and setting. Here in Florida the prevailing 'natural background' is .05 mg/l. Many of our springs are currently discharging concentrations in the range of 3-8 mg/l. For reference, 5 mg/l is 100 times greater concentration than natural background in my neighborhood. Present day concentrations in more than a few areas of the state exceed the EPA allowable level of 10 mg/l. So, what's the big deal? Elevated NO2/NO3 levels are carcinogenic. Furthermore, there is a growing body of scientific evidence that suggests clearly that levels below the EPA limit have the same characteristics and also promote blue baby syndrome. Somewhere in the 2-5 mg/l range is looking a little risky. Any of you fellas have even a vague idea what it will cost to put a water purification plant in your neighborhood to deal with elevated nitrate? I dunno either, but if you're thinking hundreds of millions you're on the right track.

OMG! WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!

Not necessarily. Take a few minutes and read the article in the link below. If it pans out Mosaic and Monsanto can kiss my cracker ass. The article is about a year old and the grapevine tells me they have been successful in mating nitrogen fixing bacteria to over 50 different crop varieties that currently require fertilizer.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jennys...itrogen-producing-microbes/#4ab47ed13d4b

I don't know it will or will not work. What I do know is that our present path is suicidal. Let's say we're 4th and goal on the 2 yard line and there's 45 seconds left on the clock.

Well, thanks for taking the time to write that down.


I think you are mostly on the right track there.

One thing that I would say is that Production, Profit and responsible farming practices are not mutually exclusive.

While we mostly labor in a Production driven model, a Profit driven model can actually be better for the environment.


Paradoxically, a Production driven model actually leads to hunger for the planet, and decreased or negative profits for the farmer.


A Profit driven model can actually be better for everyone....farmer and consumer anyway. The middle men get left the fugg out!




As far as nitrogen goes, there are several TONS of N above every acre of land on the planet. Yes it makes good sense to utilize this source of N.


However, even this source of N is not stable.



I tend to see the N problem like a balloon with room air in it.



The object of the game is to not let the balloon hit the floor. If it does is it gone Johnson.



The way to keep your N that you have invested large amounts of capital in, is to keep it working in your fields until it is time to use it in a cash crop.


That means using it to feed living roots, or storing it in root crops like radishes or turnips.

Crop residue.....residue that people sometimes burn or till under......is a great source of N....depending on the crop. That gets into the Carbon Nitrogen ratio though....




Something as simple as tilling a field of wheat stubble into the soil is wasting your N and your C.





Well, I could go on for ever.......but I wont.


I am a member of the Regenerative Ag movement. Top guys in the movement are folks like Ray Archuleta, Gabe Brown, Joel Salatin, Jay Furher.




One funny thing....as far as environmentally sound practices......Organic Farming is just as bad as conventional. In my not so humble opinion anyway.


Anyway, thanks again.

Signed,

Militant Farmer and Environmentalist,

Jim F'ing Conrad

On Topic??

Roundup is killing us....just not in the way most folks think.

Figure a way to keep N in the root zone rather than washing away and we would all profit. I hear the state of Iowa is begining the grasp these facts.

Living roots in the soil or storage vessels like turnips and radishes are how you do it.


Other crop nutrients like P and K are largely stable. Bound to the soil and what not. Do they call that Chelated? Not sure.


N is different. If you are not keeping the balloon in the air with crops.....it goes away.



Sterile soils lead to amendments like was being sold in the article you posted.


Someone once said that our soils today are a mere shadow of what they once were. Today's soils are little better than the inert water used in hydroponic agriculture.....they said.


Why not use profitable plants to manage your N rather than expensive amendments?


You then get into the realm of real "sustainability". More production, more profit, more opportunity.

Interesting, go on.

So the off label Sonar app up stream of brackish water killed off the beneficials that were keeping the algae down in that lagoon Dan?

Jim, there's likely more than one way to skin this cat. I'm only suggesting we need to figure the best method(s) and get our asses in gear.

Higbean, I'm not certain what the damning aspect was. I would imagine that sufficiently high concentrations of algae could smother some creature, but I doubt all. My guess is it was a mixture of things that go part and parcel. Low oxygen, toxicity to some of the invertebrates, and no doubt a number of other things I'm unaware of at this point. The algae bloom pictured previously lasted for about 4 weeks during and after the application which was done about a mile east of where the photo was taken. The action involved the rental of a residential dock where a large tank was installed and the Sonar was fed into the river/reservoir via a steady but "controlled" stream. Their controls were a bit suspect. I'm told that use of aquatic herbicides has a tendency to cause a spike in nutrients due to decaying vegetation but don't have a clear understanding of that.

The things that stand out to the average person is the lack of fish, wildlife and fisherman that were relatively abundant prior to this event. Back before this happened we had more otters in the back yard than Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on the door. Anywhere from a couple to 10 fishing boats passing by on a daily basis, mostly bass fishermen. Another footnote in history....

There are certainly many different ways to adress the problem.

Some ways are better than others.

What I am doing on my land is best for a small operation like mine. It is best for me.

It may not be the best for companies trying to sell me ammendments!

Aquatic vegetation in sufficient quantities can tie up excess nutrients and prevent an algea bloom, once the vegetation dies off, the decay process releases and recycles those nutrients back into the water which then feed an algea bloom. A heavy enough bloom can also reduce water clarity to the point where it hinders new vegetation growth.

Jim,

put that 'Militant farmer and Environmentalist" in a signature line for all to see in all your posts. let 'em know where you really stand.

And keep planting them turnips and stuff.

It was interesting, to say the least, to watch some places in E WA go to no till and pulse rotation in their wheat fields. Did not necessarily agree with some of them killing the garbanzos with herbicide so they could harvest all at once (what a local there told me was the reason at least). But, from what I was told by a couple in the industry they cut back substantially on fertilizer (ammonia) use, had to perform less tractor work, and still kept production up.........and of course profit.

Of course, adding garbs, lentils, and peas to the equation requires handling machinery and storage and shipping and buyers/markets and such. Hard for some folks to deal with when they are "wheat" farmers and not militant farmers and environmentalists.

DD, with any luck that river/stream will restore itself, but not likely in any quick sense. Especially if folks continue to keep weeds away from their beaches and docks with herbicides. That system looks pretty fugged up for a bit. And killing off aquatic vegetation quickly has serious serious effects. Algae blooms and crashes kill bunches of fish and other critters. As to elevated N levels in the water and fish.......ask an aquaculturist about brown blood disease.

Geno

Jim,

what you're doing is definitely not good for them amendment companies.

But it's likely you're not heavily invested in them and their bottom line anyway.

Geno

Everybody’s results can be different with the same methods. When I was farming I got into peas because nitrogen was not needed and they were supposed to put nitrogen in the soil. I did exactly as I was told by a friend and also a agronomist. On my farm I never got the big yields to turn a profit with the peas. After growing peas I had soil samples done for four years in a row on the pea ground. The nitrogen never showed up. I was farming to try and make a living so it was back to the standard crops here. Ed k

Pretty substantial fish kill?

Not to the eye so far as floaters, but by the time the water cleared up a bit pretty much everything hit the road except for turtles. We do get the odd visit from time to time, but the don't linger.

They find that here too.

Lots of different reasons for it.


These guys that do a green plow down dont see any gains if they dont plant a crop immediately afterwards.

Turns out that the microbial explosion that takes place after the peas are turned under pretty much wipes out any N that was fixed.

The bugs eat the peas....the microbial numbers explode...and then they go after the N.

No trace of it by spring.....unless you store it in a turnip or something for the winter.

Jim,

by "storing it in a turnip" does that mean you let the turnips overwinter and then turn them under? Harvest them? Let them rot for "manure"?

I kinda get the legume/nitro fixer deal, but not root veggies for nitrogen storing.

Geno

I was wondering the same thing. Are the turnips harvested or plowed?

Yes. The turnip or radish will take up available N and store it in the bulb.


The best thing is to just leave them alone.

Left alone, the bulbs rot and decompose over winter and by the time that process is complete....its time for spring planting.


You can graze the turnips. The cows or whatever will eat the bulbs and leave only a husk in the soil.

The nutrients in that bulb will be converted into cow schit. If you have an operation like mine....cow schit is not safe. The dung beetles will convert the dung into a too volatile source of N.

However....turnips grazed in late fall/winter will be converted into dung and no or very few dung beetles will be on the job at that time.



Bulb crops are the original Time Release Nitrogen.

The above ground growth of the turnips is easily broken down by wild animals and weather/oxidization.

Being a high in N on the Carbon/Nitrogen ratio....the leaves go away nicely.

They stink like crazy though! You do get used to it however....and when the temps get much lower than 0 the smell goes away.

I had a neighbor take a 40 acre field and do the turnip thing. The government had a program some time ago to aid in this practice. After about 5 years the field was seeded to grass because it would no longer produce a paying crop. He has now given up on this and just does regular farming again. Ed k

Thats too bad.


Wonder what he did wrong?

Interesting stuff Jim, thanks. 👍

Could diatomaceous earth help control the dung beetles?

What weed were they trying to control with the Sonar?

Maybe?

Dung beetles are the most important bug on the farm.....as important as bees!


We have worked very hard to increase their numbers.

Saw an article about them in our local "Cattle Mag", a companion to the AgMag. Seems they are critical to getting organic material back into the soil.

Need a few more up where I was hunting the other day, look like some floppies up there were more than a few years old.

I'll try the turnip thing in one of my garden beds, maybe some fall as a cover crop and let them rot over the winter.

Thanks for the lesson Jim.

Geno

Oh...I misunderstood you. You want the beetles in large numbers, I thought they were too prolific. My mistake.

No, no problem.


Not too prolific, you just have to be mindful of them. Nitrogen in a cow pie is pretty stable.


You just have to work with them! We are partners.

I do not know what went wrong. He runs about 100 he’d of cows also. He can use the hay but a good crop would pay better. I hope you can get away from some of the expensive fertilizer and chemicals. Less I put is always a good thing. I know the seed for your system isn’t cheap either. Ed k

Hell no!

Cover crop seed is expensive. Too much so in most cases.


These experts design a mix that has 10 or 15 different species in it.

You are paying them to experiment on your land.


Get a couple different plants growing. Check a few boxes. Add diversity later.


Our main goal has been to keep production where it was before...while cutting input costs.



We are so remote here that there is no such thing as "value added". We have to cut costs or die.

I don't recall their targets, but hydrilla was likely at the top of the list. It's back of course though some of the native plants are history. One of the things that moved in in a big way is lyngbia, a filamentous algae.