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But the fossil record does not show that. Neither does molecular biology. You just gloss over the fossil record problem. Asserting what macro-evolution might be (or "is") is no proof whatsoever that it happened and in asserting that micro-evolution leads to macro you offer no evidence whatsoever. You assume as true that which must be proven without addressing any of the difficulties I spoke of. If macro-evolution occurred, why do leading paleontologists like Stephen J. Gould say the fossil record is "un-Darwinian"?

Last edited by Tarquin; 02/17/20.

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You're just picking on some of the finer details of evolution - they both supported facts of evolution


Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.

That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.

Well?
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Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
You're just picking on some of the finer details of evolution - they both supported facts of evolution

No, they don't. Did you read my lengthy post above?


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Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by Dixie_Dude
... Being critical of God is very dangerous.

God is intolerant of questioning?


Christians will gladly be critical of other people's God.. even call them false!.. Its only when you question their
God that sends their mercury rising.


-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Originally Posted by Tarquin
But the fossil record does not show that. Neither does molecular biology. You just gloss over the fossil record problem. Asserting what macro-evolution might be (or "is") is no proof whatsoever that it happened and in asserting that micro-evolution leads to macro you offer no evidence whatsoever. You assume as true that which must be proven without addressing any of the difficulties I spoke of. If macro-evolution occurred, why do leading paleontologists like Stephen J. Gould say the fossil record is "un-Darwinian"?



I don't gloss over anything. That is precisely what you appear to be doing when it comes to evidence for evolution. Nor is it my assertion that micro evolution accumulates change over long periods leading to new species forming, plus of course beneficial mutations, possible punctuated equilibrium events and so on.

These are not my personal claims or beliefs, it's just the science as it stands, there is a fossil strata that tells the story of evolution. Comparative anatomy, molecular evidence, Comparative Embryology, transitional fossils....the list goes on. It's all there.

And I think you may have misconstrued Gould's remark. You need to quote what he actually said in the context of his references.

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I wasn't sure which lengthy post you were referring to. I'm not on top of the details of the science and research but their findings that they have made so far make sense for evolution at a greater level. Given the long time periods involved and natural destruction of evidence over that time makes the fact finding mission hard, but no doubt there will be more evidence forthcoming.


Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.

That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.

Well?
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Originally Posted by Starman
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by Dixie_Dude
... Being critical of God is very dangerous.

God is intolerant of questioning?


Christians will gladly be critical of other people's God.. even call them false!.. It only when you question their
God that it sends their mercury rising.


A lot of people seem touchy when it comes to their own God.

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Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by Tarquin
But the fossil record does not show that. Neither does molecular biology. You just gloss over the fossil record problem. Asserting what macro-evolution might be (or "is") is no proof whatsoever that it happened and in asserting that micro-evolution leads to macro you offer no evidence whatsoever. You assume as true that which must be proven without addressing any of the difficulties I spoke of. If macro-evolution occurred, why do leading paleontologists like Stephen J. Gould say the fossil record is "un-Darwinian"?



I don't gloss over anything. That is precisely what you appear to be doing when it comes to evidence for evolution. Nor is it my assertion that micro evolution accumulates change over long periods leading to new species forming, plus of course beneficial mutations, possible punctuated equilibrium events and so on.

These are not my personal claims or beliefs, it's just the science as it stands, there is a fossil strata that tells the story of evolution. Comparative anatomy, molecular evidence, Comparative Embryology, transitional fossils....the list goes on. It's all there.

And I think you may have misconstrued Gould's remark. You need to quote what he actually said in the context of his references.


Wow. Just wow. The fossil record is decidedly un-Darwinian. Don't believe it? As Stephen J. Gould (well he's dead now, but he's already answered the question. Transitional species? There are a few potential candidates but Darwinism predicts the transitionals would be "innumerable"---that there would be more transitionals than stable species, but there aren't. Where are they? The fossil strata? You mean like the Burgess shale, where species appear out of nowhere fully formed, with no evidence of ancestral forms? That's hardly Darwinian. I could go on and on too. The evidence just isn't there.


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Originally Posted by Tarquin
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by Tarquin
But the fossil record does not show that. Neither does molecular biology. You just gloss over the fossil record problem. Asserting what macro-evolution might be (or "is") is no proof whatsoever that it happened and in asserting that micro-evolution leads to macro you offer no evidence whatsoever. You assume as true that which must be proven without addressing any of the difficulties I spoke of. If macro-evolution occurred, why do leading paleontologists like Stephen J. Gould say the fossil record is "un-Darwinian"?



I don't gloss over anything. That is precisely what you appear to be doing when it comes to evidence for evolution. Nor is it my assertion that micro evolution accumulates change over long periods leading to new species forming, plus of course beneficial mutations, possible punctuated equilibrium events and so on.

These are not my personal claims or beliefs, it's just the science as it stands, there is a fossil strata that tells the story of evolution. Comparative anatomy, molecular evidence, Comparative Embryology, transitional fossils....the list goes on. It's all there.

And I think you may have misconstrued Gould's remark. You need to quote what he actually said in the context of his references.


Wow. Just wow. The fossil record is decidedly un-Darwinian. Don't believe it? As Stephen J. Gould (well he's dead now, but he's already answered the question. Transitional species? There are a few potential candidates but Darwinism predicts the transitionals would be "innumerable"---that there would be more transitionals than stable species, but there aren't. Where are they? The fossil strata? You mean like the Burgess shale, where species appear out of nowhere fully formed, with no evidence of ancestral forms? That's hardly Darwinian. I could go on and on too. The evidence just isn't there.



So you don't understand the nature of strata or the fossils that are found within it.

You should stop reading creationist material and get a hold of some textbooks or check out reputable online sites.

Evolution is not actually "Darwinian" - a lot of progress has been made since the time of Darwin, genetics, traits, etc.

Organisms evolve.

The evidence is so overwhelming that evolution is a proven fact, only the means and mechanisms is left to investigate.

Nor have you backed your Gould comment with a proper quote, in context so that readers can see exactly what he said and why he said it.

Can you do that?

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Tarquin, surely you realize that the Burgess shale fossils don't support your version of special creation, not in timeline or in genus or subgenus....or anything remotely like the bible tells us? Don't you see the problem with your beliefs?

As for the Precambrian;

''We now know that Darwin was, in a general sense, correct. The longevity of the Precambrian far outstrips the "whole interval of the Cambrian age to the present day", and for at least some of that time the sea did swarm with life. By about 565 million years ago (during the Ediacaran, the period just before the Cambrian) animals were already burrowing beneath the vast bacterial mats that covered the seafloor, and by the beginning of the Cambrian (~542 million years ago) there was a greater diversity of creatures disturbing the mud on the ocean bottom. Other Edicaran fossils have also shown that animals were present and diversifying long before the "Cambrian Explosion" (the famous Burgess Shale is about 505 million years old), even if a number of those forms met with extinction by the end of the Ediacaran. (It should be noted, though, that the identifications of many of these fossils are still controversial. Dickinsonia and Spriggina are good examples of this.)

Despite all we have learned, however, creationists still insist that the Cambrian Explosion was "a moment of geological time [when] complex animals first appeared on earth fully formed, without evidence of any evolutionary ancestors." While it is true that we cannot construct direct lines of descent from Middle Cambrian organisms like Anomalocaris and Hurdia to creatures that lived during the Ediacaran, the fossil record is clear that complex, multicellular life preceded the Cambrian Explosion for tens of millions of years. Darwin did not know of such evidence, nor was he considering the "Cambrian Explosion" as it is discussed today, but his hypothesis has met the test. Trilobites and other famous Cambrian fossils were preceded by a number of creatures that "swarmed" in the prehistoric seas.''

Originally Posted by Tarquin

As Stephen J. Gould (well he's dead now, but he's already answered the question


It's irrelevant that he is dead....I'm asking to provide source material to back what you claim he said, and not just be expected to take your word for it.

Can you support what you say or not?

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Originally Posted by DBT
[Sorry you feel that way....that only believers are allowed to have their say....that anyone who points out problems in the spirit of truth, the actual history and development of the bible, etc, is sheeting on the parade.


You don't "point out problems in the spirit of truth". You read anti-God stuff which usually is not true and try to use that junk to prove God's Word wrong.


"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
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Originally Posted by DBT
[
Some people don't like having their beliefs questioned. Defense mechanisms come into play quite quickly. That much is quite clear.



You are a prime example![size:14pt][/size]


"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
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Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
I wasn't sure which lengthy post you were referring to. I'm not on top of the details of the science and research but their findings that they have made so far make sense for evolution at a greater level. Given the long time periods involved and natural destruction of evidence over that time makes the fact finding mission hard, but no doubt there will be more evidence forthcoming.



The more evidence forthcoming support creation and subsequent flood. That's why no educated creationists become evolutionists but the reverse is true.


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This whole debate on evolution is pointless because evolution is a proven fact, just as surely as the earth is round.

I am not going to search for Tarquin's "lengthy post" because Tarquin is a quack-doodle who doesn't understand what the late Stephen J. Gould said. Gould did not refute evolution. He believed in punctuated evolution, which merely means it proceeds faster or slower as conditions allow or mandate. That's a pretty obvious supposition, now proven.

As to the Burgess shale, it's unusual to find soft bodied fossils of any kind, let alone the record of ones that led to those.

But we do have a fairly complete fossil record of humans, continuously and accurately dated back to 4,000,000 years ago. And they evolved. A lot. Surprised?

I don't believe that God is stupid enough to believe in the Book of Genesis. After all, God didn't write it. The only purpose such fairy tales serve is to allow those who insist on their truth to turn away people with IQs above 100 who otherwise might be tempted to embrace Christianity.


Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.

Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
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Originally Posted by Ringman
How many times have I asked you to tell us how billions of fossils form without a world wide flood? Fossils don't prove evolution. They support a Flood.

Originally Posted by How Do Fossils Form?

By Joseph Castro - https://www.livescience.com/37781-how-do-fossils-form-rocks.html
When animals, plants and other organisms die, they typically decay completely. But sometimes, when the conditions are just right, they're preserved as fossils.
Several different physical and chemical processes create fossils, according to the New York State Geological Survey.
Freezing, drying and encasement, such as in tar or resin, can create whole-body fossils that preserve bodily tissues. These fossils represent the organisms as they were when living, but these types of fossils are very rare.
Most organisms become fossils when they're changed through various other means.
The heat and pressure from being buried in sediment can sometimes cause the tissues of organisms — including plant leaves and the soft body parts of fish, reptiles and marine invertebrates — to release hydrogen and oxygen, leaving behind a residue of carbon.
This process — which is called carbonization, or distillation — yields a detailed carbon impression of the dead organism in sedimentary rock.
The most common method of fossilization is called permineralization, or petrification. After an organism's soft tissues decay in sediment, the hard parts — particularly the bones — are left behind.
Water seeps into the remains, and minerals dissolved in the water seep into the spaces within the remains, where they form crystals. These crystallized minerals cause the remains to harden along with the encasing sedimentary rock.
In another fossilization process, called replacement, the minerals in groundwater replace the minerals that make up the bodily remains after the water completely dissolves the original hard parts of the organism.
Fossils also form from molds and casts. If an organism completely dissolves in sedimentary rock, it can leave an impression of its exterior in the rock, called an external mold. If that mold gets filled with other minerals, it becomes a cast.
An internal mold forms when sediments or minerals fill the internal cavity, such as a shell or skull, of an organism, and the remains dissolve.
Organic remnants
In recent years, researchers have discovered that some fossils aren't just made of minerals. Fossil analyses have shown, for instance, that some retain organic material dated to the Cretaceous, a period that lasted from 65.5 million to 145.5 million years ago, and the Jurassic period, which lasted from 145.5 million to 199.6 million years ago
Tests suggest that these organic materials belong to dinosaurs because they match certain proteins from birds, which evolved from dinosaurs.
"It used to be that no one thought it was possible for any endogenous material — material that comes from the animal — could be left behind after the fossilization process," said Ken Lacovara, the dean of the School of Earth and Environment at Rowan University in New Jersey. "[But] that's not really the case."
It's unclear how the organic material is preserved, but iron might help the proteins become cross-linked and unrecognizable, or unavailable to the bacteria that would otherwise consume them, Lacovara said. (Formaldehyde works in a similar way, cross-linking the amino acids that make up proteins, making them more resistant to decay, Mary Schweitzer, a molecular paleontologist at North Carolina State University, told Live Science.)
Another idea is "microbial masonry," Lacovara said. "It's possible that the bacteria that initially chomped through the tissue are secreting minerals as a waste product that then hermetically [airtight] seal a little bit of what remains behind," almost like a stone mason sealing off a structure, he told Live Science.
Moreover, sandstone — rock made of sand-size grains of minerals, sediments or inorganic material — seems to be the best type of environment for preserving organic material in fossils.
"Sandstone is like a bunch of volleyballs sitting on top of each other with big interstitial [spaced] areas between them," Lacovara said. "So it seems like rapid decay might promote the preservation process. Maybe we need the bacteria to get through fast and to chomp through the sediment so that they can sequester some of [the surviving organic material] in the process."

Ringman, which of these processes require a world wide flood? Why would local floods, landslides, volcanic ash falls, or “it fell in the crick and drowned” not be adequate explanations? Explanations that have no necessity of an imaginary friend who did it by magic.
Originally Posted by Ringman
DNA proves a Creator to any reasonable person.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdozVq81gog is from a middle-school primer on biology. Keep in mind that this video is five years old and research has undoubtedly advanced since then. At what stage was it necessary for DNA to be created by magic?
Originally Posted by Ringman}Even Click said it was miraculous and invented "panspermia" (spacemen brought it) to get around accepting the fact DNA cannot happen without intelligent design and manufacturing.[/quote

Who is Click and what are his/her qualifications? Unless you provide the exact quote and the source of the quote we would be justified in thinking this another of your myriad unfounded assertions.
[quote=Ringman]Molecular evidence demands Intelligent Design. I hope you know the simplest cell in more complex than the whole city of New York.

Intelligent Design demands a designer. Can you demonstrate the existence of a designer and tell us what mechanism was used to design cells?
What metric are you using to measure complexity? How many Complexity Units comprise the simplest cell? How many are in New York City? If you cannot measure complexity you are making another unfounded assertion.
Originally Posted by Ringman
The idea of transitional fossils is a joke.

Here a few more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils at the end of the list are links to about fifty peer-reviewed papers published in scientific journals.
Here are some more examples: http://www.fossilmuseum.net/Evolution/transitionalfossils.htm
Originally Posted by Ringman
The reason we know a dinosaur is a dinosaur is because they group; just like fossil cats, wolves, fish and everything else.

Dinosaurs are recognized as a group, technically called a clade, because they share characteristics. The same goes with your other examples. What is your point?

Originally Posted by Ringman
Your defenses are not working for thinking people.

A great deal of evidence has been supplied and ignored by you. Is it the mark of a thinking person ignore evidence?
Originally Posted by Ringman
That's why every year educated evolutionists become creationists.

Yet you have, despite repeated requests, failed to name any except the mysterious Crick. Please be so kind as to supply names of persons with relevant expertise (those with advanced degrees in Medieval Bulgarian Poetry will not count), and original sources where their statements can be found.
I might as well ask for a third time, since no reply was forthcoming:
Given the evidence presented in the Evolution Scientifically Debunked thread, do you now agree that a “half wing” can be useful? Do you agree that beneficial mutations exist and have been well documented?


One unerring mark of the love of the truth is not entertaining any proposition with greater assurance than the proofs it is built upon will warrant. John Locke, 1690
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Originally Posted by Starman
Originally Posted by TF49
.. Satan was cast out..


But he and his other wicked rebel angels were spared
by God,... rather than destroying such evil
They were then given another task to fullfill by God.
and for that God must surely take responsibility.

Only if being cast into Hell for all Eternity is "sparing". By my consideration, it is not. Untold millions of aberrant fools will be joining them, too. Will you be one?


We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?

Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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Originally Posted by wswolf
Originally Posted by Ringman
How many times have I asked you to tell us how billions of fossils form without a world wide flood? Fossils don't prove evolution. They support a Flood.

Originally Posted by How Do Fossils Form?

By Joseph Castro - https://www.livescience.com/37781-how-do-fossils-form-rocks.html
When animals, plants and other organisms die, they typically decay completely. But sometimes, when the conditions are just right, they're preserved as fossils.
Several different physical and chemical processes create fossils, according to the New York State Geological Survey.
Freezing, drying and encasement, such as in tar or resin, can create whole-body fossils that preserve bodily tissues. These fossils represent the organisms as they were when living, but these types of fossils are very rare.
Most organisms become fossils when they're changed through various other means.
The heat and pressure from being buried in sediment can sometimes cause the tissues of organisms — including plant leaves and the soft body parts of fish, reptiles and marine invertebrates — to release hydrogen and oxygen, leaving behind a residue of carbon.
This process — which is called carbonization, or distillation — yields a detailed carbon impression of the dead organism in sedimentary rock.
The most common method of fossilization is called permineralization, or petrification. After an organism's soft tissues decay in sediment, the hard parts — particularly the bones — are left behind.
Water seeps into the remains, and minerals dissolved in the water seep into the spaces within the remains, where they form crystals. These crystallized minerals cause the remains to harden along with the encasing sedimentary rock.
In another fossilization process, called replacement, the minerals in groundwater replace the minerals that make up the bodily remains after the water completely dissolves the original hard parts of the organism.
Fossils also form from molds and casts. If an organism completely dissolves in sedimentary rock, it can leave an impression of its exterior in the rock, called an external mold. If that mold gets filled with other minerals, it becomes a cast.
An internal mold forms when sediments or minerals fill the internal cavity, such as a shell or skull, of an organism, and the remains dissolve.
Organic remnants
In recent years, researchers have discovered that some fossils aren't just made of minerals. Fossil analyses have shown, for instance, that some retain organic material dated to the Cretaceous, a period that lasted from 65.5 million to 145.5 million years ago, and the Jurassic period, which lasted from 145.5 million to 199.6 million years ago
Tests suggest that these organic materials belong to dinosaurs because they match certain proteins from birds, which evolved from dinosaurs.
"It used to be that no one thought it was possible for any endogenous material — material that comes from the animal — could be left behind after the fossilization process," said Ken Lacovara, the dean of the School of Earth and Environment at Rowan University in New Jersey. "[But] that's not really the case."
It's unclear how the organic material is preserved, but iron might help the proteins become cross-linked and unrecognizable, or unavailable to the bacteria that would otherwise consume them, Lacovara said. (Formaldehyde works in a similar way, cross-linking the amino acids that make up proteins, making them more resistant to decay, Mary Schweitzer, a molecular paleontologist at North Carolina State University, told Live Science.)
Another idea is "microbial masonry," Lacovara said. "It's possible that the bacteria that initially chomped through the tissue are secreting minerals as a waste product that then hermetically [airtight] seal a little bit of what remains behind," almost like a stone mason sealing off a structure, he told Live Science.
Moreover, sandstone — rock made of sand-size grains of minerals, sediments or inorganic material — seems to be the best type of environment for preserving organic material in fossils.
"Sandstone is like a bunch of volleyballs sitting on top of each other with big interstitial [spaced] areas between them," Lacovara said. "So it seems like rapid decay might promote the preservation process. Maybe we need the bacteria to get through fast and to chomp through the sediment so that they can sequester some of [the surviving organic material] in the process."

Ringman, which of these processes require a world wide flood? Why would local floods, landslides, volcanic ash falls, or “it fell in the crick and drowned” not be adequate explanations? Explanations that have no necessity of an imaginary friend who did it by magic.
Originally Posted by Ringman
DNA proves a Creator to any reasonable person.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdozVq81gog is from a middle-school primer on biology. Keep in mind that this video is five years old and research has undoubtedly advanced since then. At what stage was it necessary for DNA to be created by magic?
Originally Posted by Ringman}Even Click said it was miraculous and invented "panspermia" (spacemen brought it) to get around accepting the fact DNA cannot happen without intelligent design and manufacturing.[/quote

Who is Click and what are his/her qualifications? Unless you provide the exact quote and the source of the quote we would be justified in thinking this another of your myriad unfounded assertions.
[quote=Ringman]Molecular evidence demands Intelligent Design. I hope you know the simplest cell in more complex than the whole city of New York.

Intelligent Design demands a designer. Can you demonstrate the existence of a designer and tell us what mechanism was used to design cells?
What metric are you using to measure complexity? How many Complexity Units comprise the simplest cell? How many are in New York City? If you cannot measure complexity you are making another unfounded assertion.
Originally Posted by Ringman
The idea of transitional fossils is a joke.

Here a few more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils at the end of the list are links to about fifty peer-reviewed papers published in scientific journals.
Here are some more examples: http://www.fossilmuseum.net/Evolution/transitionalfossils.htm
Originally Posted by Ringman
The reason we know a dinosaur is a dinosaur is because they group; just like fossil cats, wolves, fish and everything else.

Dinosaurs are recognized as a group, technically called a clade, because they share characteristics. The same goes with your other examples. What is your point?

Originally Posted by Ringman
Your defenses are not working for thinking people.

A great deal of evidence has been supplied and ignored by you. Is it the mark of a thinking person ignore evidence?
Originally Posted by Ringman
That's why every year educated evolutionists become creationists.

Yet you have, despite repeated requests, failed to name any except the mysterious Crick. Please be so kind as to supply names of persons with relevant expertise (those with advanced degrees in Medieval Bulgarian Poetry will not count), and original sources where their statements can be found.
I might as well ask for a third time, since no reply was forthcoming:
Given the evidence presented in the Evolution Scientifically Debunked thread, do you now agree that a “half wing” can be useful? Do you agree that beneficial mutations exist and have been well documented?




Ringman, sorry but young-earth Creationism is the equivalent of insisting the earth is flat. You're embarassing yourself.


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Originally Posted by Ringman
Originally Posted by DBT
[Sorry you feel that way....that only believers are allowed to have their say....that anyone who points out problems in the spirit of truth, the actual history and development of the bible, etc, is sheeting on the parade.


You don't "point out problems in the spirit of truth". You read anti-God stuff which usually is not true and try to use that junk to prove God's Word wrong.


Wrong. I point to what the bible itself says. The errors and problems in the bible speak for themselves....if acknowledged and not ignored. Sadly, the latter is typical.

Keep in mind that you yourself are critical when comes to the holy books of others, the Qur'an, Gita, etc, but do not apply the same standard to your own.

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Exclusivity.
The one common theme in all belief systems.

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Any mysterious through the use of parables


Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.

That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.

Well?
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