Awesome thanks

Cancer, infant mortality, pandemics, mass extinctions, and natural disasters are awesome?

Yes. They are awesome, and they are necessary in the master plan.

Glass half empty guy.

It's all part of God's plan. If it's meant to be, it is.

That youngster reminds me of one I saw while bowhunting some years ago. We spotted 15 or 16 cows coming over a ridge toward us. They didn't come within range but turned and headed off in another direction. They were being trailed by a little raghorn that seemed mighty proud of himself. That little guy didn't have what it took to get all those cows. We figured he'd stolen them while the herd bull was fighting off another intruder. After 20 or 30 min, the herd came back and went back over the ridge in the same place they'd come from. This time they were being trailed by a big 6x6 and the raghorn was following along bawling his head off. That's more like it.

How much of these are caused by man having free will, except for natural disasters.

So, you'd rather there was never any more storms, lightening, volcanoes?

In the long run, those things dont destroy believers.

Tell him hummingbirds are of “intelligent design” that might put a millijoule of thought in his gravy bowl he calls a skull.

Nice video Jag, thanks for sharing.

Do you really think God had anything to do with these?

Are you saying that there are things that your god didn't create and control?

God controls And God allows .

So he's the one behind Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin and the 30+ million murders they arranged,?

(I know what's coming next, the old "works in mysterious ways" wheeze.)

I think your questions are legitimate. I don’t think it’s wrong to question God. There are clearly occasions in the Bible where people asked God questions and He wasn’t angered or offended. For me though, there’s a difference between asking God questions and accusing Him of wrongdoing. I do understand why so many people struggle with questions such as these though.

God does not do sin. Those are not His work.

Well put.



P

Rocky I respect your views but do not understand the point of discussing God if you do not believe that there is a God .

Please prove this.

Evolution creates some cool critters for certain.

I agree completely. Good thing God got the ball rolling.



P

Thanks for posting.

Most of those are the fault if Democrat and communists.

You leave this place believing there is no God, you best hope you are right.....chew on that awhile.

If there is a Creator, why would it care what you believe?

Ah. Pascal's Wager.

Fallacy, to "believe" just in case...

Yep. It was a very clever way that God used to achieve His creative objectives.

Just what are we talking about?

thats cause hes too busy creating moral and physical evils/calamities.





you mean just like child abducton and cylists getting pancaked by 18 wheelers?

Staunch christians dont like heritics like you.

can you cite where the word of God supports evolution?




Its also legitimate to question the different versions of a one god that various differing belief
christians peddle.

Yep,, sorta disinginuous....

God made Satan Think about that. Gave him free will and look what he did. He made us and gave us free will.

God created two trees in the Garden, one the Tree of Life, the other, the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The root of the first is Life, the second, death. Everything eminates from one or the other.

So, there you have it. Given that choice, choose Life that you and yours may live.

DF

I used to care what people thought about me. Until one day, I tried to pay my bills with their opinions.
Nope. I can’t cite where the word of God supports nuclear fission or nuclear fusion either.

To each his own. Sincere questions are typically normal and healthy.

Intelligent design requires intelligent input.

The Empire State building is a beautiful structure, but had to have a blueprint. Just didn't happen by chance.

"In the beginning was the Word..".. Now, to me that sounds like original informantion, a master blueprint of sorts.

Biggest problem with one's head in the sand is what's left exposed, definitely an "end" in sight, a rearend, that is.

DF

A man in our town did not believe that men had gone into space. Of course there were pictures of rockets etc. but he would believe it had happened.

Unbelief is much like that to some who do believe the bible and what God has said. To us it is not rational .

But the bible says many will not believe. We may say all kinds of things that are rational to us it will not change their belief. God is the one who changes people.

Plants and animals are not created, they evolve and grow. Only microbes existed on the planet for 3 billion years.

Is that speculation or revelation?

DF

Yep, just like that. Also love, beauty, loyalty, a first kiss, holding your baby for the first time, a wedding night, fresh cracked crab and melted butter, cold beer, a sizzling ribeye with sautéed mushrooms, huckleberry pie, pancakes in elk camp, elk heart fried in bacon grease the evening of opening day, your first car, the feeling of a 50-lb halibut on your line, the look in your wife’s eyes...

Also death, pain, fear, disappointment, failure, loss, tragedy, and democrats. Can’t have the good without the bad. Can’t have the bad without the good, either.

And I know I’m not going to change your mind, I’m not trying. I’m just expressing my belief.






P

I think that one is observation

Prove it!

Whatever you want.

why neither, of course. just a plain ol' fact (the real kind, not an alternative one).

The Creator in the Bible tells us He loves us. Those in our relm care when they love. He says He made us in His image so we can conclude He cares.

But don't forget He hates the wicked. He is The One Who cursed His creation. He claims when a calamity occurs He did it.

The God of the Bible is not the god we hear about in most classes and churches.

When things on the terrible list are happening, - do you fervently pray (like so many others do) to change them,

Or do you just humbly accept it all as part of divine will process / Gods master plan?

I am not about to deny God. Do so at your own peril.

God loved us first. He askes nothing of us. He has granted the greatest Gift in all the universe, all we have to do is humble ourselves a little bit, and take the Gift.

It's been proven with one hundred and fifty years of research. Check out the textbooks. Only the means and mechanisms by which organisms evolve is left to investigate. Evolution is proven.

Proven with evidence. Done and dusted.

The bible also says a whole lot of other things....things that are not compatible with love - coming from God. Which is why the Gnostics believed what they did about the God of the bible.

He cares, you just got to believe it.

God asks nothing of you?.. your God must be vastly different to the God of other christians.

I pray that things change, of course, but I ask for His peace if they don’t.

The whole “Not my will but Thine,” thing.

Throw another one at me, this is fun.



P

Praying for things to change according to your own preferences is not praying for Gods will.

What does God lack that such prayers would alter/influence his divine will?

That's you saying it, not a Creator of the universe saying it. If justified belief was important to a Creator of the Universe, there would be no problem providing evidence...rather than just a bunch of people saying what they believe while contradicting another bunch of people who believe something else.

Maybe God allows bad things to happen so that he can feel useful when prayed to?

Yet hardly ever answering prayers so as to give the impression that he doesn't actually exist...thereby playing the game of hide and seek based on faith?

Then getting very upset when someone is not convinced of his existence?

It's all very strange.

Christians regularly flip-flop on their faith.

First its: "I trust everything that happens as the divine will of the Lord"

next thing - they are group praying cause they dont like the cards God
has delt someone.

I’m selfish, of course I want things my way. Duh. Sometimes God’s will looks like a poop sandwich, but I don’t understand the Big Picture. So I ask for things to go my way but peace in my heart if/when they don’t.

I don’t see it as God lacking anything. That’s an odd choice of words to me.




P

So you dont pray in faith for 'Gods will be done' like you claimed.

Did you push the post reply button a little early?

Is that why I could find three pH.D. evolutionists the other day who say there is nothing they can say for sure is true about evolution?

If you don't have field or laboratory experience you are a parrot like most of us.

Sure I do. I pray that His will is the same as what I want. But if His will is different, I ask for His peace to accept it.

You’re working a little too hard. Don’t over think it.



P

Sounds like a bunch of evolutionists. When I was twenty-five my favorite evolutionist was proven wrong by another evolutionist.

Read the book "The Case for miracles".

or you are unecessarily complicating your prayer process.
praying for His will should be more than sufficient.

but it seems you feel the need to educate God on what you want.
thus its seems you consider him lacking in some way.

some humans are driven by Satan.

In the Book of Job, Satan is the one who causes evil things. Christ said that Satan comes to kill, steal, and destroy. Christ stopped a storm. Storm wasn't caused by God. Christ is God in the flesh. God allows things. He does not force anyone to believe. He didn't create robots. Also, man's sin is what brought on the evil in the world, as well as death. Satan was behind Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. It took prayer and the US military to stop Hitler.

Anyway, it's all in the Bible. Read the New Testament first then the Old Testament can be understood better. Two sides of the same coin. Old Testament shows man's sin and Gods Holiness. Shows that man can't live up to God's laws. New Testament shows God's love through mercy and grace. God is holy and God is love.

Nope, I’m human and I want what I want. I’m the one who’s lacking. You logic is kinda skewed. Like I said, I’m not trying to change your mind, and you won’t change mine. I’ll include you in my prayers tonight, with your permission.



P

Prayer stopped Hitler?

and whatever you think Satan did , it was God who gave him his position/dominion and empowered him.

Satan never applied for the job , God forced him into it.

Why would you feel the need to tell God what you personaly want...doesnt he already know such
before you begin to pray?..clearly theres something you doubt about His abilty.

anyway it seems you are not content to pray purely for Gods will be done,
you like to tag your own personal requests to it.

Wow, you really don’t get it. Why are you trying so hard to poke holes in my belief? And don’t say you’re not, its obvious. What do you hope to gain by refuting my position? I’m not trying to change your mind but you’re working awfully hard to find inconsistencies in my belief. Are you that unhappy or scared that when you see contented belief you need to besmirch it?

Truly.



P

Why don't you and starman put a sock in it. Don't come in if it makes you so miserable. No one is forcing you to read this.

Jim

That's pretty fair, I think. I've seen the argument from both sides, and honestly they can both sound convincing and I don't have the scientific knowledge to know who's information is most accurate. But, I find I don't really care that much how exactly it happened anyway, so I haven't ever dug that deeply into it.

Why do you perceive rational responses through debate/discussion as being driven by "fear and unhappiness"..?

its actually you who clings to your brand of faith out of 'fear' isnt it? ..and you pray specifically for 'unhappy' things to improve?

and I aint " working hard" to find inconsistencies in your belief , cause they are bleating obvious.

RE: besmirch.....LOL

-so you feel your reputation (as a christian).. has been damaged?

Good folks looking for an alibi. It's so simple. We all know the Way.

That is the beauty of his Creation, he gave us that freedom to accept him and believe him, he gave you this same freedom to not accept him and leave this place believing that...not to complicated is it.

Possessed.

DF

Maybe you should back your claim with citations and quotes so that we can see what was actually said and by whom?

Nah. Besides, as the story goes, Satan is the creation of god doing the will of God according to God's plan. Obedient to God, acting on instructions from God, eg: the book of Job.

Normal due diligence requires evidence to justify a conviction....not just accepting what someone tells you or what is claimed to be true in ancient scrolls....that cannot be verified but must be taken on faith.

We don't operate like that in the real world.

Looks like all the heavy hitters are on board now. Should go 500 posts at least.

It has been put to music many times. This is only one.

Besmirch: make something dirty or discolored.

Interacting with you isn’t fun anymore. It makes me sad. So I’ll let you have the last word.




P

I know the claims and the arguments. They are not convincing....a spontaneous remission in every five million terminal cancer cases is a natural anomaly not divine intervention or a miracle.

My Bible is all the evidence, and I surely believe it to justify my convictions, not believing what everyone tells me. Must be taken on faith...that is the beauty of it...again.

But which god?

I'm sure you wouldnt give a dayom WTH your kids thought of you, which is probably a good thing.

Uh, you forgot that there is evil and many on earth elect to submit to it, satan, as Eve did in the Garden of Eden.

Dayom!

Amen!

PTL!

Sheesh, all I meant to do posting this video was to show something nice. Then the unbelievers have to jump in and tell me I'm wrong like some did when I told people like them about the UFOs my bud and I saw.

They told us we were wrong until the next day the front page story on the Corpus Christy Caller was the stories of airline pilots flying in and out of Corpus that early Saturday AM were reporting on seeing those same UFOs.

Strangely, if you ever see one, you will suddenly believe in them. Seeing them gives a pretty good clue they exist, just like Christian's get a pretty good clue when they see the awesomeness of Gods handiwork.

Like HE said, if you cant see it, it's because you have scales on your eyes. Just because you havent seen UFOs doesnt mean they dont exist.

Some are of the mind they go around focused on the bad and miserable. As a result, that's all they will see.

How self centered and conceited does one have to be to say, hey, you're wrong, because I cant see it.

Finding a 'Harry Potter' listed in the phone book
is all some need to believe in the existence of
a wizard.

Or, choose death and look at everything through your asswhole, so you have a schietty view of things.

I still kinda think the christians are mis-guided. Look at the ancient egyptians and what magnificent legacies they left behind that still exist to this day, and they had a whole family of gods. Sets a good example of what a good set of deities should be.

So how long since the advent of a new species and how long until the advent of another?

Maybe GOD is not just love, but also just.

So if you bust your kids butt for playing in the street, does that mean you dont love it? Sheesh. So, you cant conceive of love and being just, and you have the audacity to try and educate us? Unreal. Duh? Too great a mental leap? Evidently.

Now tell us, There is no God (as far as you can deduce).

Christians often pray to change things cause they are not content, largely due to the schietty negative view they have
of particular events in Gods unfolding plan.

Virus' "mutate" all the time. More complex organisms take longer - the timespan is incomprehensible because we don't live that long individually but there's plenty of proof that it happens.

It's not just to act contrary to the rules of justice, the very same standards and rules that you are said to value. We are told that God is love, yet the very same source describes God acting vindictively and unjustly, and there lies the contradiction.

Viruses are not species of animals that procreate from males and females.

You didn't make this specification in the first place. Why do you want to narrow down your arguement in this manner?

Besides, the evidence is there.

Neither are dandelions. What's your point?

They are a species with Male and female parts, like you, la Roye. Now GFY.

BTW, you arent awesome either.

Yeah. Why exclude virus' - they are another wonderous creation of our loving god

You prove He is just, not just loving.

It rains on the ...

You and rocky prove there is always a cloud behind a silver lining, for a little while, anyway, which is exactly your objective and purpose.

Folks like you all keep us from living in Heaven on Earth now, and gives us hope in the hereafter.

Thank you and your bud satan.

Makes no difference.

Are you aware of the timescales involved? What happened after each of the five major extinction events?

I'm only in the arguement because I hate the way religion detracts from appreciating life as it is and just accepting that. Religion breeds many "sins" and relies on a propaganda based on fear of death, or rather what lies there after.

Time is better spent on a Sunday morning practicing double taps and mag changes, than filling ones head with delusional religous rubbish IMHO

False. Micro-evolution has been proven, but the grander and all-important claims (macro-evolution) have not been proven.

You enjoy the unprecedented benefits of a culture called "western" civilization. Its premises are entirely religious; it is built upon Judeo-Christian morality and the fundamental precepts of Judeo-Christian monotheism.

No, civilisation and culture exists despite religion. I think christians and non-believers have 30% population each, the remaining 40% is all the other religions.

Religion is the "appendix" in the evolution of philosophy.

Not western civilization. You are utterly ignorant of history and the foundations of western culture. Utterly. Modern philosophy is entirely nihilistic, root and branch; it denies the existence of any such thing as "good".

Well I am partially ignorant but it was politics that led the decisions for the advancement of society - sometimes under the guise of religion, but intentions divorced from religion none the less. There are prinicples in philosophy that drive religion and politics, and certainly religion fails these days to meet those intentions, and probably never did anyway.

On re-think you are right. I recall of days gone where general bigotry and racial discrimination were bourne out of those of religeous faith.

You need to brush up the evidence for evolution

Good is relative. We would not consider it good to be killed and eaten by a crocodile, but the crocodile probably feels good about getting a meal.

And your statement that "good" is relative says everything, to say nothing of being analytically silly as self-refuting.

In other words you didn't understand what I said.

Shark bites leg off surfer - good for the shark. Surfer sees the situation differently.

Yep.

I know the claims and the arguments. They are not convincing....a spontaneous remission in every five million terminal cancer cases is a natural anomaly not divine intervention or a miracle. [/quote]

You are not talking from good information. The book is about a scientist who took a crew of doctors to record actual missionaries praying and what happens. The book is filled with documentation of person after person being healed from blindness or deafness. Read the book. You will be surprised.

Finally, my .com friend, I agree with your post. You understand it better than the vast majority of Christians.

When a virus mutates does it become something else? NO! It's still a virus!

I explained it to you from the perspective of me when I was a boss. You constantly choose to reject any and everything that challenges your worldview. You judge The Creator as those He is no more than a human.

I will always be astounded by individuals and their finite comprehension in a single moment of time vs. the unlimited time and immeasurable span of all that God created is.

The problem is a set of values are given and a set of values broken, the same set of rules and values. It doesn't matter who is said to have done it, be it man or God, or when it was done... the rules and values are contravened and they are broken. It's basic logic.

It is you who needs to brush up on the evidence. You might start with Signature in the Cell and Darwin's Doubt by Stephen Meyer.

Well said.

that is certainly a good definition of irrational, blind faith.

Doesn't say much for a rational thought process though.

Restrictions place on him by God, NOT doing the will of God... Big difference.

Rebellion, not obedience.

God IS in ultimate control, not Satan..

DF

Keep it simple good men.

They are too blinded by scales and hate to see such simple truths.

God let's Satan separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, by letting those unworthy choose him instead of HIM, thus saving believers from the blather of their babble, in Heaven. Thank GOD. Thanks, GOD.

A great example of God having supreme authority over all is in the book of Job.
He let satan destroy almost everything of Job’s but told satan he could not kill Job.
Good grief people it’s so simple.
Who is the destroyer?
Who has supreme authority?

It's so simple, many miss it.

You've summed it up nicely.

DF

Hilarious. Meyer is a crank. An advocate of ID, which tried and failed to get established.

...

Stephen Meyer's with the Discovery Institute.....That tells you everything you need to know about his "science".

And that's the kind of thing creationists trot out as evidence against evolution. It's amazing.

To establish truth requires evidence. Faith is the hope of something being true.

And as is par for you, you respond with ad hominem categorization ("creationists") rather than on the merits to the actual evidence set forth in Meyer's work. In logic, that's called a concession.

There's nothing that he had to say that we haven't already debunked 100+ times on this site.

Here's Kenneth Miller, a Catholic, and the Professor of Biology Royce Family Professor for Teaching Excellence at Brown University, explaining how they dismantled "Intelligent Design" in the Dover Case.

I wasn't attacking any particilar person. It was a general comment. I was directing my comment at creationism and creationists in general....what creationists do to support their untenable position.

ID supporters put their case in court, and it failed for scientific reasons....so why is it still being brought up?

You forget that Judeo-Christianity is result of
syncretism with pagan Zoroastrianism and
pagan Hellenism.

PAUL wrote by taking from Greek philosopher Homer
to appeal to the many Greek speaking gentiles.

If not for the pagan Greeks and Romans with their
Greek and Latin and importance placed on educational
institutions, and secular rule of law justice system,
what would our western civilization be like today?

Why do we have a universal language [of the time] Greek Septiguin(O. T.) ?
Well it's because the hellenistic pagans wanted a copy
made for the Greek library in Alexandria.

Greeks and Romans were largely tolerant of the variety
of different cults in their colonies and Empires.
Yet the Jews and Christians of those periods with their
range of inter-rival sects expressed intolerance to
each other as well as the pagans.

Futhermore;

Founding fathers like Jefferson and others were pagan classical period educated and influenced, and it is from
such period of antiquity that vitally important parts of
the constitution like 'Separation of Church and State'
are modelled.

DBT,

You often say there is no evidence despite many Ph.D scientist switch from evolution to creation every year due to evidence.

Today I realized you are like at a crime scene and don't know about fingerprints, blood splatter, DNA, and other evidence available to those who take off their worldview blinders.

I am sure if you knew of just one evolutionists who converted you would crow about it.

That it so much boollshit it isn't funny.

Jag,

They are blinded to the truth. I would rather be wrong in my belief than wr4ong in theirs. My belief, if wrong, won't have me living in misery for all eternity. Theirs will. Ignore them. They are not worth it. I just put them all on ignore (a modern day way of shaking the dust off). Let them believe as they want.



Jim

I find it curious that left leaning, "progressive", socialist types are often athiests, agnostics, etc, scoffers at Christianity and Christian values.

Dems talk all the time about "our values", but sometimes I wonder what they're referring to, as their values are certainly not my values.

They seem to hate people who, as they say, cling to their Bible and their guns. Obongo famously said they are bitter, clinging to their guns and religion, referring to us.

I see a lot more hate, vitriol and bitterness coming from the left than from the right.

DF

Can't say I have noticed that, but certainly people here hate people who DO NOT cling to their bibles and guns.

Cling to whatever. I'll take my guns and evolution every day.

Satan conformed and thus was obedient.

Liar.

You don't read 24hr very much do you? Seriously, you are clueless.

Did Satan break the rules set down by God
in the case of Job?... Please point out where
Satan disregarded God when toying with Job.

You're crew clings to the idea we are a democracy and you're too stupid to percieve their agenda. You cant see what's before your very eyes.

You're a lying racist who licked Zeros ass because he was bleck.

OK folks, we have been told to love one another. Let us respect each others opinion. I am confident of the stand I take.

The earthly tale of Jesus shows he led by meek humble
example, which all the lousy christians constantly fail at
following.
but JCs father is old school, an irrational emotion driven
Arbritary justice patriarchal autocrat that don't lead
by example and has great difficulty communicating
with mortals.

Apparently Jesus is needed to reach out to folks and to
moderate- talk sense and reason into the cantankerous
old man, so he don't go around willy nilly destroying all
the people He loves.

Yes, and he's over due in his coming back to earth for the second time. He better pull his finger out before it's too late - only about 30% of the world population is Christian and muslims look to overtake into first place shortly. Be a pity if he came back and there was no one left to save.

Do you know why Jesus is coming back?

Do you know how the Bible describes conditions on earth just prior to the Return?

So, did Satan rebel against God?

More people have likely stepped back from God because of their inability to reconcile a good and loving God with the injustice and the suffering and the pain in the world...than for any other reason.

God created and appointed lucifer knowing
he would rebel.
Effectively creating and empowering his own
Arch nemesis.

so clearly such Rebellion in heaven is God's will
In the divine plan. ... What was God's
contigency plan If Lucifer had not rebelled?

as far as Job is concerned, Satan was fully
compliant with God's request on the rules
Of the game... Lest you can prove otherwise.

God did indeed create Lucifer. Being omniscient, he would know what Lucifer would do. But, God did not make Lucifer sin. Lucifer did that on his own. He was created as being perfect, but sin was found in him.....he made the decision to rebel. His choice to rebel. Satan was cast out. He has no excuse, he made the choice to rebel. God is not responsible....God’s omniscience is not an excuse that Satan can use to prevent judgment.

In the same way, God now knows.... at this instant....whether or not you will make a decision to accept the gift or to stay in rebellion to God.

Your decision has not yet been finalized.

Satan’s decision is final and there is no remedy for him.

Well said and true. Thanks

Of course not - you guys/gals should know that.

P



Yeah, it was obvious that you didn’t know. Didn’t stop you from making a comment though.

You should get out more on Sunday morning.

But he and his other wicked rebel angels were spared
by God,... rather than destroying such evil
They were then given another task to fullfill by God.
and for that God must surely take responsibility.

Its all part of the plan......apparently.



Some bosses are not responsible I guess.

Absolutely, will see you then.

Wow.... spared by God? You don’t know the Bible.

You also presume to sit in judgment of an Almighty and Righteous God.

Think about that for a moment..... you need to read and understand how God rebuked Job. Read Job 39 and then pay special attention to the first few verses of Job 40.

cast out (or exiled) not destroyed,
so one could say Spared by God.




Your God is a character in a subjective content book
written by man and often unidentified authors.

Well, you obviously did not read Job 39 & 40.

But, know that you really do not understand and it seems you do not care to even try to understand.

Go your own way, it seems right to you, but don’t be surprised if it doesn’t turn out well.

There is some good news here though. You are drawn ....like a moth to a flame.....to these Christian themed threads. Maybe that is good. I suspect that something in you is very unsettled. Maybe....

LOL..well it's rather simple, off the rail christians
provide the most light entertainment on the CF,
Nothing more nothing less.
But we can trust your kind to put some wishful
thinking delusional arcane spin to it.

Those guiding light spirit channeling secret Bible code
mythology Interpreting types such as wacko jX and
yourself, dont do much except inflate your own fragile
egos while in search of gullible audience members.

NOW at one time you spat the dummy and told the CF,
you had Starman on Ignore, but now you can't resist
and seem like quote: 'moth drawn to a light'.



well in actual fact OP title only says GOD
but it's typical of your type to think it would
only be about your brand of God.

There is a very small percentage of biologists, etc, who are creationists in terms of their personal beliefs. The point is, they cannot prove their beliefs. They have tried and they have failed. The evidence is against them.

The first few verses have Satan turning up in heaven and god turning his attention to Job. Satan did nothing against Job until God gave the go ahead. Satan only acted according to the instructions of God, being obedient to God at all times.

The role of satan in Judaism is not the same as that of Christianity.

DBT,
Be aware that what Bible cleary shows in Job
is not sufficient for some christians like TF49.

When I asked - "Did Satan break the rules set down
by God in the case of Job? - Please point out where
Satan disregarded God when toying with Job."

TF49 would not directly answer that, instead
he deflected to Lucifers rebellion in heaven.. lol.

Even the rebellion in heaven is not really supported in the OT. Isaiah refers to the King of Babylon, etc. Judaism has a different view altogether.

Given the character of God, as revealed in the Bible, Satan rebelled against an evil, powerful tyrant and deserves our respect for that act. Just as the Founders of our nation deserve respect for rebelling against the intolerable yoke of British rule.

Please give us the names of some scientists in relevant fields who "switch from evolution to creation". Also be so kind as to include their summaries of the evidence that convinced them.

If you fail to do this some might think you are making yet another assertion from the Seventh Planet.

Kindest regards

Ringman,
In the thread titled Evolution Scientifically Debunked, I answered your challenge to provide examples of beneficial mutations by citing popular articles and peer-reviewed scientific papers. Perhaps you missed my reply. After reading it do you accept that beneficial mutations exist? P.S. There are plenty more examples if you would care to look for them. (beneficial mutations)


I replied with a number of examples that even Kent Hovind could understand. ( Half wing ) Perhaps you missed my reply.

After reading my reply do you now agree that a half wing can confer a benefit on its possessor?

Judaism's view on the nature and role of Satan.

What is the Jewish view of Satan? Was he a fallen angel? Let us find out in this post.

Christian View
In Christian belief, Satan is a fallen angel that has freedom of choice and rebels against God. Christians conveniently use the “Satan, to explain any evil or irrational behavior (such as non belief in Jesus as messiah or god). The New Testament is fertile ground for this outlook. It is only here that Satan becomes a wicked, rebellious angel, which quite likely evolved the character called Satan into an evil angel and enemy of God based on theological Persian dualism where such a construct is present.

Jewish View
He (Satan) is clearly subordinate to God, a member of His suite (Heb. Bene ha-elokim), who is unable to act without his permission. Nowhere is he in any sense a rival of God. The Encyclopedia Judaica The Christian claim that it was Satan who created evil is utterly fraudulent according to our Tanach: I (God) form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7 God creates all things, not simply good things. There isn't a single verse in the entire Tanach that states that Satan ever created evil or ever disobeyed a command from God. Satan is an obedient servant of God in the Tanach who serves the role of man's accuser in God's court.

Creation of Temptation
God created the temptation to do evil partially to test our loyalty, and partially to improve us. That is why the word (Satan- שטן) in Hebrew literally means an adversary (Numbers 22:22) that comes to challenge us. We find this notion throughout the Book of Job, where God gives permission to the Satan to challenge the righteous Job. In fact, one of the most dramatic and powerful expressions of man’s struggle with God and his conscience involves Job and Satan. God had given Satan permission to afflict Job with all manner of hardships and misfortune. In turn, Job loses his family and possessions, and is stricken with boils and disease. As he sits in sheer agony, his close colleagues remark, “Your piety is your foolishness.” Even his wife chews him out, saying, "Are you still holding fast to your integrity? Curse God, and die." But Job tells them, "You speak as one who is despicable. Should we accept only the good from God and not also accept the evil?”(Job 2:9‑10)

Conclusion
It is the mission of every conscientious person to overcome temptations and do what is correct. The Torah itself (Genesis 4:7) teaches that is a mission within our grasp to fulfill. There is nothing to fear from the temptations of the Satan when one is focused on Godliness and self-improvement.

How nice of me to post such a malevolent comment and video to facilitate the great unbelievers into fulfilling their God given duty and purpose of existence in educating all humanity as to the real facts of life so none ever feel guilty or ashamed for any vile acts they have ever done since there evidently is no real reason not to do WTF one feels like doing at any given moment, provided of course, it wont land one in jail.

The PC motto of "If it feels good, do it" lives on. Humanity is justified.

Sleep well, DBT and AS, you SJWs have educated us beyond all measure of responsibility and done your jobs well. Now AFAIC you can go to Hell.

Why not just live with the mystery of existence with an open mind, a mind open to new possibilities? Religious explanations come from the past, a time when the true scope and scale of the universe was not known.

God allows:

OR

AND

It really isn't that hard.

Pick the one you want... or pick BOTH.

IMHO... people that must disparage

So that they can ONLY HAVE

Are missing out on the majority of the gifts this life has to offer.

Ah yes, I am backslidden again.

But, like I have said before regarding you, “That dog barks too much”.

There is a reason for that, but I don’t know what it is. Maybe you don’t either.

People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive. - Blaise Pascal

And then we go looking for reasons to substantiate our belief.

This likely applies to one’s ‘belief in’ or ‘rejection of’ the existence of God as well.

“I ‘want’ atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers.” - Thomas Nagel

“It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. I don’t ‘want’ there to be a God; I don’t ‘want’ the universe to be like that.” - Thomas Nagel

He knows the universe and I know all I need to about it.

Why try to figure out what's wrong with a transmission or figure out life without an instruction book?

You can go through life wondering about this or that or the other or you can understand WTH is going on a lot earlier in life and each new big announcement by the MSM is understood in perspective.

None of your experts have been able to or needed to explain to me why suckers with your bent exist, or why the Europen Union or UN came into existence, or why western Europe and the Chruch has been going off the deep end over muzzy immigration or why drug addiction and aids and cartels developed or why WW1 and WW2 happened or why the folks went crazy over PC or why Zero became their hero or why and who kicked God out of school or the cost of the consequences of it.

I know where we came from and where you are going and where I am going, which is more than i can say for you.

I know why you and AS have to schiett on every thread about your enemy and our Creator and how your snake drives you to do it like a moth to a flame.

Sorry you feel that way....that only believers are allowed to have their say....that anyone who points out problems in the spirit of truth, the actual history and development of the bible, etc, is sheeting on the parade.

Backslidden?.. Hmmm not really..no need to think
that deep... Dummy spit reactions are just immature
infantile behavior... Indicative of stunted growth as a
person.

Try laying off your ancient middle eastern fringe cult
mythology mind drug dependency for a while...
Then maybe you can learn from other folk who don't
require such lame security blanket beliefs.. Of course
danger is that you risk growing up both mentally and emotionally.

Some people don't like having their beliefs questioned. Defense mechanisms come into play quite quickly. That much is quite clear.

IF folks truelly believe that 2000 yrs ago a man performed miracles, rose from the dead, then dissapeared in the sky

Then they should also believe Bigfoot still walks
the woods.... With all the eye witness accounts
and many still living first-hand witnesses, why doubt it?

Yet IIRC, Christian CF members have crapped on
the Bigfoot Believers parade.

Don’t forget Santa Claus......

Flat Earthers also get defensive. And young age creationists, as do Muslims, the danger with them is they may just pull out their big sharp knives.

Santa can't be questioned....think of the little children.

Nor can you yours.

They are not 'mine,' however evolution is an established fact, fossil record, transitional fossils, DNA, molecular evidence, etc. A large percentage of theists accept the reality of evolution. Including Christians.

DBT,
jX is of the Cinderella story type mindset fraternity,
where pumpkins just turn into carriages through magic.

You know no such things, your arrogance and judgemental-ism are showing through nicely though.

Faith is the illusion of knowledge where no knowledge exists.

Anyone who believes this universe, this planet, this environment, this body we all have just happened, due to some happenstance of nature is just fooling themselves with what they want to be true so they can live as they please. End of discussion.

Admitting that Intelligent Design is the most logical explanation for our existence could require having to change their lifestyle. Which alas, they believe would be burdensome, boring, out dated, old fashioned and not desirable. Plus they don't want to ever even scarcely admit that there could possibly be a real Hell.

You don't want or need God. He will give you exactly what you asked for some day. Only it won't be fun. And then it will be too late for you to do anything about it.

I pray for you non-believers. You are going to be hot and thirsty for a long time.

Praying for you friend.

Threats do not change facts.

Magic is no explanation for the existence of the universe....which works on principles of physics, not design or planning. The history of the planet could have gone in any number of directions had conditions been different. Had an asteroid not hit the gulf of Mexico sixty five million years ago, there would still be dinosaurs....their demise allowed mammals to evolve and fill niches that were previously denied them, and so on.

As it is the human race nearly went extinct during the last ice age.

None of which paints a picture of special creation or a God that cares about the creatures of the world or their fate.

Ahhh religion - based on fear of death and hope for salvation, yet driving hate and arrogance, unless you happen to be in on the pagan cult mindset.

It is a continual fight between good and evil.....there will be casualties.

They live dreaming the words of Zero are true. Believe and believe and believe and their belief can make their Hopes come true. Zero care disproved that, but they cling to their hope there is no hope.

Just like with Zeros believers, their belief didn't come through.

A sure sign of mental illness is when folks
take ancient mythology as serious as some do.

Cognitive science has identified schizoid types
where unlike some who are impaired by such
condition, instead find comfort, encouragment
and confidence through such.

If you don't seek God, you will not find Him. If you seek Him with all your heart, you will find Him. God is real. You can know He is real. You just have trust in Jesus, seek God, and He will manifest Himself to you in various things. This universe is too big to have created itself. God created it, and everything else.

Ask, and ye shall recieve.

Are you one of those types that pray to change outcomes you don't like, even though your God already decided that it should be so?

Bigoted nonsense---although concedely, it is hard to argue against when Jag is probably Exhibit A for you.

Did you mean "concietedly", since I didnt concede schiett?

Christians who obstinantely think their God is the only real one, and others false = bigoted.

Expect no sense from anyone drugged out
on their own particular brand of mythology.
... typically they will tell you the drug is
working just fine.

Bigoted doesnt necessarily mean rong.

God puts His Word above HIs Name. Any prayers have to be in line with the Word of God or He won't answer them. Being critical of God is very dangerous.

Just as dangerous as being critical of Santa, and he knows if you've been naughty or nice

Depends on what you mean by "evolution". Materialism has no answer whatsoever for the question of how life began and so it is either utterly dishonest or unbelievable ignorant to assert that "only the means and mechanisms by which organisms evolved is left to investigate". In fact, evolutionists universally assert the exact opposite: we don't yet know how life began, but we soon will and in any event, how life "evolved" is virtually without question; the neo-Darwinian synthesis tells us with certainty, or so they claim. So DBT, you've asserted the exact opposite of what your betters in materialism (those who are better informed in your pet philosophy than you are) universally claim. In fact, it was because things were so bad in origin of life research that Anthony Flew, one of the worlds leading intellectual defenders of Darwinism and a staunch atheist, changed his mind and concluded that some superior intellect had to be responsible for the origin of life because materialism and Neo-Darwinism simply can't account for it. He concluded thusly because "he had to follow the evidence". Modern science literally hasn't a clue how inanimate matter became infused with life. Frankly, the evidence hasn't moved much beyond the Miller-Urie experiments of the late 50s (if memory serves as to the date). As far as evolution (whatever that vacuous term means), micro-evolution is well supported, but the all-important metaphysical claim---that Neo-Darwinism explains the diversity of life on earth has been, for all intents and purposes, falsified. In fact, micro-evolution disproves the macro-claims because thousands of years of intelligent human intervention have never produced a new species. Dogs and pigeons might get smaller or larger, or change colors. Millions of generations of fruit flies might change size or color. But dogs remain dogs and pigeons and fruit flies remain pigeons and fruit flies. On the Gallagapos Islands, when drought led to changes in Finch beak sizes, the Finch beaks always returned to the mean when moisture returned and in any event, the Finches remained Finches. In other words the unassailable characteristic of species is "stasis", not change. Indeed, species are remarkably resistant to change. Likewise, the fossil record has essential disproven Darwinism: it is not a branching tree with a coherent lineage of descent and modification, as Darwin predicted, but more like an incoherent bush where species appear out of nowhere, with literally no evidence of pre-existing forms in the fossil record. Whatever else you want to call it, that is not Neo-Darwinism. Indeed, it was the decidedly non-Darwinian character of the fossil record that forced Stephen J. Gould and Niles Eldredge to hypothecate punctuated equilibrium---they had to come up with some sort of theory to try account for the thoroughly non-Darwinian character of fossil record. As far as textbooks, they are joke because they are intended to maintain the creation myth of modern materialism, Neo-Darwinism. Accordingly, in the important respect hey are little more than propaganda tools rather than repositories of objective empirical knowledge because their a priori commitment to a certain mythology insures they bend over backwards to avoid discussing any disconfirming evidence. Finally, the mathematical challenges to Neo-Darwinism (known since the Wistar Institute convening in the 60s) are simply insurmountable. Apologists for the materialist creation myth, when confronted with the mathematical challenge, simply waive their hands and try to talk their way around the problem. By the way, if anyone is interested in a devastating and hysterically funny take-down of Richard Dawkins, get ahold of 'Darwinian Fairytales" by David Stove. Stove was a first rate philosopher and intellectual and an insanely funny writer and thinker. He absolutely destroys Dawkins and, using Dawkins own works, proves that Dawkins' selfish gene theory makes him essentially an Intelligent Design theorist without even knowing it! Another excellent read on why Neo-Darwinism is essentially a religious faith, is the great Mary Midgely's "Evolution as Religion".

The so called god that people find when they look differs between believers. One may become a Muslim, another a Hindu while someone else becomes a Pantheist, some believe in Deism, others in a God that takes an interest in our lives.....they can't all be right, if one is right the rest are wrong....or most likely all are wrong. The God that the seeker finds is a construct of their own hopes and desires

Wow, what a wall of text! But I can't see anything that refutes the reality of evolution. Micro evolution accumulating change over very long time periods become the evolution of species...as the fossil record, molecular biology, etc, etc, shows;


''Evolution is a process that results in changes in the genetic material of a population over time. Evolution reflects the adaptations of organisms to their changing environments and can result in altered genes, novel traits, and new species. Evolutionary processes depend on both changes in genetic variability and changes in allele frequencies over time.

The study of evolution can be performed on different scales. Microevolution reflects changes in DNA sequences and allele frequencies within a species over time. These changes may be due to mutations, which can introduce new alleles into a population. In addition, new alleles can be introduced in a population by gene flow, which occurs during breeding between two populations that carry unique alleles. In contrast with microevolution, macroevolution reflects large-scale changes at the species level, which result from the accumulation of numerous small changes on the microevolutionary scale. An example of macroevolution is the evolution of a new species. ''

God is intolerant of questioning?

But the fossil record does not show that. Neither does molecular biology. You just gloss over the fossil record problem. Asserting what macro-evolution might be (or "is") is no proof whatsoever that it happened and in asserting that micro-evolution leads to macro you offer no evidence whatsoever. You assume as true that which must be proven without addressing any of the difficulties I spoke of. If macro-evolution occurred, why do leading paleontologists like Stephen J. Gould say the fossil record is "un-Darwinian"?

You're just picking on some of the finer details of evolution - they both supported facts of evolution

No, they don't. Did you read my lengthy post above?

Christians will gladly be critical of other people's God.. even call them false!.. Its only when you question their
God that sends their mercury rising.

I don't gloss over anything. That is precisely what you appear to be doing when it comes to evidence for evolution. Nor is it my assertion that micro evolution accumulates change over long periods leading to new species forming, plus of course beneficial mutations, possible punctuated equilibrium events and so on.

These are not my personal claims or beliefs, it's just the science as it stands, there is a fossil strata that tells the story of evolution. Comparative anatomy, molecular evidence, Comparative Embryology, transitional fossils....the list goes on. It's all there.

And I think you may have misconstrued Gould's remark. You need to quote what he actually said in the context of his references.

I wasn't sure which lengthy post you were referring to. I'm not on top of the details of the science and research but their findings that they have made so far make sense for evolution at a greater level. Given the long time periods involved and natural destruction of evidence over that time makes the fact finding mission hard, but no doubt there will be more evidence forthcoming.

A lot of people seem touchy when it comes to their own God.

Wow. Just wow. The fossil record is decidedly un-Darwinian. Don't believe it? As Stephen J. Gould (well he's dead now, but he's already answered the question. Transitional species? There are a few potential candidates but Darwinism predicts the transitionals would be "innumerable"---that there would be more transitionals than stable species, but there aren't. Where are they? The fossil strata? You mean like the Burgess shale, where species appear out of nowhere fully formed, with no evidence of ancestral forms? That's hardly Darwinian. I could go on and on too. The evidence just isn't there.

So you don't understand the nature of strata or the fossils that are found within it.

You should stop reading creationist material and get a hold of some textbooks or check out reputable online sites.

Evolution is not actually "Darwinian" - a lot of progress has been made since the time of Darwin, genetics, traits, etc.

Organisms evolve.

The evidence is so overwhelming that evolution is a proven fact, only the means and mechanisms is left to investigate.

Nor have you backed your Gould comment with a proper quote, in context so that readers can see exactly what he said and why he said it.

Can you do that?

Tarquin, surely you realize that the Burgess shale fossils don't support your version of special creation, not in timeline or in genus or subgenus....or anything remotely like the bible tells us? Don't you see the problem with your beliefs?

As for the Precambrian;

''We now know that Darwin was, in a general sense, correct. The longevity of the Precambrian far outstrips the "whole interval of the Cambrian age to the present day", and for at least some of that time the sea did swarm with life. By about 565 million years ago (during the Ediacaran, the period just before the Cambrian) animals were already burrowing beneath the vast bacterial mats that covered the seafloor, and by the beginning of the Cambrian (~542 million years ago) there was a greater diversity of creatures disturbing the mud on the ocean bottom. Other Edicaran fossils have also shown that animals were present and diversifying long before the "Cambrian Explosion" (the famous Burgess Shale is about 505 million years old), even if a number of those forms met with extinction by the end of the Ediacaran. (It should be noted, though, that the identifications of many of these fossils are still controversial. Dickinsonia and Spriggina are good examples of this.)

Despite all we have learned, however, creationists still insist that the Cambrian Explosion was "a moment of geological time [when] complex animals first appeared on earth fully formed, without evidence of any evolutionary ancestors." While it is true that we cannot construct direct lines of descent from Middle Cambrian organisms like Anomalocaris and Hurdia to creatures that lived during the Ediacaran, the fossil record is clear that complex, multicellular life preceded the Cambrian Explosion for tens of millions of years. Darwin did not know of such evidence, nor was he considering the "Cambrian Explosion" as it is discussed today, but his hypothesis has met the test. Trilobites and other famous Cambrian fossils were preceded by a number of creatures that "swarmed" in the prehistoric seas.''



It's irrelevant that he is dead....I'm asking to provide source material to back what you claim he said, and not just be expected to take your word for it.

Can you support what you say or not?

You don't "point out problems in the spirit of truth". You read anti-God stuff which usually is not true and try to use that junk to prove God's Word wrong.

You are a prime example![size:14pt][/size]

The more evidence forthcoming support creation and subsequent flood. That's why no educated creationists become evolutionists but the reverse is true.

This whole debate on evolution is pointless because evolution is a proven fact, just as surely as the earth is round.

I am not going to search for Tarquin's "lengthy post" because Tarquin is a quack-doodle who doesn't understand what the late Stephen J. Gould said. Gould did not refute evolution. He believed in punctuated evolution, which merely means it proceeds faster or slower as conditions allow or mandate. That's a pretty obvious supposition, now proven.

As to the Burgess shale, it's unusual to find soft bodied fossils of any kind, let alone the record of ones that led to those.

But we do have a fairly complete fossil record of humans, continuously and accurately dated back to 4,000,000 years ago. And they evolved. A lot. Surprised?

I don't believe that God is stupid enough to believe in the Book of Genesis. After all, God didn't write it. The only purpose such fairy tales serve is to allow those who insist on their truth to turn away people with IQs above 100 who otherwise might be tempted to embrace Christianity.

Ringman, which of these processes require a world wide flood? Why would local floods, landslides, volcanic ash falls, or “it fell in the crick and drowned” not be adequate explanations? Explanations that have no necessity of an imaginary friend who did it by magic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdozVq81gog is from a middle-school primer on biology. Keep in mind that this video is five years old and research has undoubtedly advanced since then. At what stage was it necessary for DNA to be created by magic?

Intelligent Design demands a designer. Can you demonstrate the existence of a designer and tell us what mechanism was used to design cells?
What metric are you using to measure complexity? How many Complexity Units comprise the simplest cell? How many are in New York City? If you cannot measure complexity you are making another unfounded assertion.

Here a few more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils at the end of the list are links to about fifty peer-reviewed papers published in scientific journals.
Here are some more examples: http://www.fossilmuseum.net/Evolution/transitionalfossils.htm

Dinosaurs are recognized as a group, technically called a clade, because they share characteristics. The same goes with your other examples. What is your point?


A great deal of evidence has been supplied and ignored by you. Is it the mark of a thinking person ignore evidence?

Yet you have, despite repeated requests, failed to name any except the mysterious Crick. Please be so kind as to supply names of persons with relevant expertise (those with advanced degrees in Medieval Bulgarian Poetry will not count), and original sources where their statements can be found.
I might as well ask for a third time, since no reply was forthcoming:
Given the evidence presented in the Evolution Scientifically Debunked thread, do you now agree that a “half wing” can be useful? Do you agree that beneficial mutations exist and have been well documented?

Only if being cast into Hell for all Eternity is "sparing". By my consideration, it is not. Untold millions of aberrant fools will be joining them, too. Will you be one?

Ringman, sorry but young-earth Creationism is the equivalent of insisting the earth is flat. You're embarassing yourself.

Wrong. I point to what the bible itself says. The errors and problems in the bible speak for themselves....if acknowledged and not ignored. Sadly, the latter is typical.

Keep in mind that you yourself are critical when comes to the holy books of others, the Qur'an, Gita, etc, but do not apply the same standard to your own.

Exclusivity.
The one common theme in all belief systems.

Any mysterious through the use of parables

The evil done is possible because God spared(exiled) Lucifer and his wicked angels
and for him to then be the (God appointed) prince of the earthly domain after the rebellion.

Of course you like others just want to skip over that part of the script and go
to the end of the movie.



sad to see ancient middle east peasant mind mythology have so much power over you.
You, jX and a few others from the CF should see if you can
get a group discount from a caring and capable psychiatrist.

Tossing people in Hell for the trivial condition of a lack of conviction doesn't say much for the nature and character of God.