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O K and I DO remember some of that! Thanks. .318 yes. lawsuit, patent infringement, yes. "spritzer" - NO > spitzer. Don't tell Gnoahh .. American Absolutely. jwall, you're only getting the 2nd part of the history of the 8 X 57. The ONLY difference between the 7.92 X 57 you're posting about and the original from 1888 is the bullet diameter. The 8 X 57 beat the -03 by 15 years and the -06 by 18 years. Sorry. In 1905 the German Army changed the bullet diameter from .318 of the original 8 X 57 to .323 and the bullet weight from 220 to 150 grs. The .318 change to .323 has confused most American shooters ever since. The case head, rim and body diameter of the -06 are, for all intents and purposes, identical to the 8 X 57. Any cartridge based on the 8 X 57 can be easily made from -06 brass usually simply by resizing and trimming. Many thousands of handloaders have made those modifications of -06 brass, me included, probably millions of times. Rarely will the neck diameter of the formed cartridge need to be reduced.
The 30-06 is indeed derived from the 30-03 which was derived from the 8 X 57. So much so that Mauser took Springfield to court not only over the 1903 rifle but also the spritzer bullet of the 30-06. I am open to correction but I believe Mauser won both cases. I know Mauser won the case over the 1903 for patent infringement and except through WWI, Springfield had to pay Mauser $1.00 per rifle royalty. The bullet law suit I am foggy on but I thought Mauser won it as well.
So, essentially, gnoahh is right. The essentials of the 30-06 are not of American origin. But for cryin' out loud, what is more American than a 30-06?....and I don't really care for the cartridge.
Thank You, as you can see I DID some searching AND my memory has FMD (fading memory disorder) Jerry
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
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Campfire 'Bwana
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.22 short?
.44 Henry?
.56-56 Spencer?
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50 BMG. Nothing says "Murica" bigger and more boldly than a 50 out of a Barrett or M2 Browning.
Always remember that you are unique, just like everyone else.
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Have fun.....j3
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Campfire Outfitter
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Most American is very subjective. With that said on pure numbers alone it would be .22LR, 30-30, 30-06, 45 Colt, 12ga
But do pure numbers make it the most American? IMO, no it's not the numbers. Obviously the 06 isn't AS popular as it WAS for DECADES. I'd agree with whoever said the 308 is seeing more use today than the 06. What about 'collectively' over the years ? that's another question. However the 308 is @ 1/2 the age of the 06. We have many American proprietary cartridges and I'm GLAD. The 270 Win certainly IS American w/o Question. Maybe it's my "maturity" , aka age, but when asked or someone mentions 30-06 >>> WW I, WW II, Korea, etc. comes to MY mind. AMERICAN? Yes Indeed. Jerry You are saying this like I disagree with you. Look at my list! I don't own a 30-30 or 06.
Eat Fish, Wear Grundens, Drink Alaskan.
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_________________________________________________________________________ “Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
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30-06 hands down 👍.....Hb
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I've been a member of the German Gun Collector's Assn. for either 10 or 11 years and I think it took me the first 9 to get it all straight. The .318 to .323 difference I picked up after only 5 or 6 years. and folks tell me I don't learn quickly....hogwash!
NRA Benefactor 2008
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Most American is very subjective. With that said on pure numbers alone it would be .22LR, 30-30, 30-06, 45 Colt, 12ga
But do pure numbers make it the most American? IMO, no it's not the numbers. Obviously the 06 isn't AS popular as it WAS for DECADES. I'd agree with whoever said the 308 is seeing more use today than the 06. What about 'collectively' over the years ? that's another question. However the 308 is @ 1/2 the age of the 06. We have many American proprietary cartridges and I'm GLAD. The 270 Win certainly IS American w/o Question. Maybe it's my "maturity" , aka age, but when asked or someone mentions 30-06 >>> WW I, WW II, Korea, etc. comes to MY mind. AMERICAN? Yes Indeed. Jerry You are saying this like I disagree with you. Look at my list! I don't own a 30-30 or 06. There is a little misunderstanding ‘somewhere’ ? I was agreeing w/you as well. Jerry
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
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30-30, or 30-06......and 357 magnum
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jwall, the first two that came to my mind were the two you mentioned, 30 WCF and 30-06. Then Dollar threw in the 45 Colt and 45-70. I guess for me it would have to be the two latter as I've shot infinitely more of them than the two 30's. However, I'd bet there's a lot more users of the first two than the latter two. NOT to argue there sharps. I guess living the South and not knowing anyone personally who has travelled to hunt Moose or Buffalo or Big Bears-----> the 45-70 never came to mind. I know 'some' of its history and it CERTAINLY is American ! Jerry I just said 45-70 because 30-30 was already out there. But the 45 and 45-70 do have the longest running history of American cartridges that are still popular today.
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22lr because it was everybodys first. Spot on. Yeah, Good call.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Traditional American, yes, 30/30 and 30.06
For modern America, it's the 5.56 and .308.
Go to the range today, everyone has an AR, or two, or twelve.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
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Two world wars say it's the 30-06. You might heard about em, it was in all the papers.
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Traditional American, yes, 30/30 and 30.06
For modern America, it's the 5.56 and .308.
Go to the range today, everyone has an AR, or two, or twelve. O K. I’d bet there are MORE guys who have an 06 than an AR. I have yet to know anyone personally who owns an AR anything. Also, it’s been 30 + yds since I saw anyone hunting a 30-30. Jerry
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
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Two world wars say it's the 30-06. You might heard about em, it was in all the papers. Don’t forget Korea.
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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O K and I DO remember some of that! Thanks. .318 yes. lawsuit, patent infringement, yes. "spritzer" - NO > spitzer. Don't tell Gnoahh .. American Absolutely. jwall, you're only getting the 2nd part of the history of the 8 X 57. The ONLY difference between the 7.92 X 57 you're posting about and the original from 1888 is the bullet diameter. The 8 X 57 beat the -03 by 15 years and the -06 by 18 years. Sorry. In 1905 the German Army changed the bullet diameter from .318 of the original 8 X 57 to .323 and the bullet weight from 220 to 150 grs. The .318 change to .323 has confused most American shooters ever since. The case head, rim and body diameter of the -06 are, for all intents and purposes, identical to the 8 X 57. Any cartridge based on the 8 X 57 can be easily made from -06 brass usually simply by resizing and trimming. Many thousands of handloaders have made those modifications of -06 brass, me included, probably millions of times. Rarely will the neck diameter of the formed cartridge need to be reduced.
The 30-06 is indeed derived from the 30-03 which was derived from the 8 X 57. So much so that Mauser took Springfield to court not only over the 1903 rifle but also the spritzer bullet of the 30-06. I am open to correction but I believe Mauser won both cases. I know Mauser won the case over the 1903 for patent infringement and except through WWI, Springfield had to pay Mauser $1.00 per rifle royalty. The bullet law suit I am foggy on but I thought Mauser won it as well.
So, essentially, gnoahh is right. The essentials of the 30-06 are not of American origin. But for cryin' out loud, what is more American than a 30-06?....and I don't really care for the cartridge.
Thank You, as you can see I DID some searching AND my memory has FMD (fading memory disorder) Jerry Haha! All in good fun! I had skipped the .30-03 because I didn't want to muddy the waters- and perhaps not germane to the thread, and probably still isn't but here goes. The only difference between it and the '06 was a bit of neck length- .30-03 neck was .1" longer and originally made so as to best accommodate the standard .30 bullet, a 220 grain RN held over from the Krag. (Look at the neck of a .30-40 Krag next to a .30-06 and their thinking will become apparent.) In 1906 when the 150 grain spitzer at much higher velocity was adopted it was decided that the long neck wasn't needed for that application so it was shortened 1/10"- voila, the .30-06 debuted in its final iteration. (Even though the "new" cartridge could be safely fired in the old chamber they felt a need to shorten all the barrels in use and recut the chambers for the '06 cartridge neck. It was a helluva undertaking because in those three years of service the Armory had batted out a pile of rifles and they all had to be altered. Naturally from that date on Service rifles had the new chamber. It also meant that .30-03 ammo had to be recalled and replaced as the '03 cartridge won't quite fit in an '06 chamber.) And yes, the lawsuits we lost to German concerns really happened and were only abrogated by us going to war against them, and winning it. I own a bunch of .30-30's (but no Winchester or Marlin lever guns) and a bigger bunch of .30-06's (mostly original Springfields), and I shudder to think of the number of guns in both calibers I've owned over the last 50 years. I would be happy to live out my days with nothing but either one by my side. Perhaps it should be a "King and Queen" dual title as Most American Cartridge"?
Last edited by gnoahhh; 02/18/20.
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz "Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
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jwall- *** 3100 guy***
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Campfire Ranger
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Traditional American, yes, 30/30 and 30.06
For modern America, it's the 5.56 and .308.
Go to the range today, everyone has an AR, or two, or twelve. O K. I’d bet there are MORE guys who have an 06 than an AR. I have yet to know anyone personally who owns an AR anything. Also, it’s been 30 + yds since I saw anyone hunting a 30-30. Jerry Maybe, but not as lopsided as you might think. Most of the gunnys I hobnob with own '06's, and they also own AR's. I do, and have a ball shooting it. I still run into a lot of guys toting .30-30's in the deer woods, both young and old. I have a Winchester M54 .30-30 bolt gun that makes it into the woods at least once each year, and a Savage 99G .30-30 that arrived too late last year but will certainly get its share of woods time in the future.
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz "Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
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Good point re: the 5.56/.223. About as American as you can get and certainly an icon of the last 60 or so years- but it's still in diapers compared to the other contenders.
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz "Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
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