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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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My experience is that God calls to those with open minds and hearts who know they’re deeply flawed and want to know Him.
I’ve met many people who didn’t believe but didn’t NOT believe and who asked God to show Himself to them and none were ignored.
But in the interest of fairness, if you’d prefer to shake your fist or wave your bird at Him instead you’ll also get the answer you seek. That was not my experience. I tried. The more I learned about it, about the Bible, about science, about religions in general and about the world the less it made sense. I could lie to everyone else of course but if He is real then I figured I wasn't fooling Him. You reckon he'd be more pissed at trying to pull one over on Him or not pretending to be faithful? Well, you were right in not fooling Him. Now, learning science, the apparent contradictions in the Bible, about other religions and then making your "intelligent" deduction and thus relying on your own understanding rather than having faith is a losing proposition. How many years did you ask Him in prayer to give you faith and help you overcome your unbelief, not saying I'm an expert or good example or very well versed in this. Numerous years, off and on. And I wasn’t asking to overcome unbelief, I was asking for asking for conviction on what I assumed must be true but had never felt truly and didn’t figure He would appreciate me lying about it to Him
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Joined: Jun 2008
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,516 Likes: 2 |
A lot of Atheist deconverted by reading the Bible. Jesus’ most devout first century followers never owned a Bible, never read a Bible...because there was no Bible to be had or read. But these men and women turned the world upside down; they’re the reason that people worship Jesus today; and they never held a Bible because there was no Bible until the fourth century. Not really, Christianity most likely would have remained a small cult had it not been for Paul's promotional work and Constantine adopting Christianity as his state religion. Yes really. “These men and women” that I mentioned above actually saw Jesus die, and later they saw Him alive. They witnessed the very event upon which Christianity is founded. And ‘that’ event is what sparked the movement (the Church) that brought us the Bible.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 13,141 Likes: 9
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 13,141 Likes: 9 |
I've been gone from home all day. Has this issue been settled? One side convinced the others? Jesus' simple message of salvation through repentance evidenced by a changed life and good works sure has gotten twisted up by some of those who claim to be his best friends. By the way, Jesus message wasn't anything new. He was just pointing out that those of his day who claimed to be God's representatives had run off the rails. If he came back preaching the same message today's church would not let him live three years.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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Joined: Nov 2011
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,073 Likes: 4 |
A lot of Atheist deconverted by reading the Bible. Jesus’ most devout first century followers never owned a Bible, never read a Bible...because there was no Bible to be had or read. But these men and women turned the world upside down; they’re the reason that people worship Jesus today; and they never held a Bible because there was no Bible until the fourth century. Parts of the old Testament date to around 500 BCE and most of it predated the early Christians and proto-christians so they had religious texts reflective of at least parts of the OT. If your do not believe The Bible is at least the "inspired word of God", than yours is a minority position among Christians. Marcion allegedly put together the first cannon sometime in the second century, which supposedly included six of the original letter of "Paul" and a variant of Luke. It's still debate if Marcion's luke was a proto-Luke or an abridged version of Luke. It's true, the variouis pre-christian sects didn't have any of the modern cannons, but they did have texts, of and were very skilled at forging new ones. Heck, there was at least 60 gospels that we know.....
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Nov 2011
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,073 Likes: 4 |
A lot of Atheist deconverted by reading the Bible. Jesus’ most devout first century followers never owned a Bible, never read a Bible...because there was no Bible to be had or read. But these men and women turned the world upside down; they’re the reason that people worship Jesus today; and they never held a Bible because there was no Bible until the fourth century. Not really, Christianity most likely would have remained a small cult had it not been for Paul's promotional work and Constantine adopting Christianity as his state religion. Yes really. “These men and women” that I mentioned above actually saw Jesus die, and later they saw Him alive. They witnessed the very event upon which Christianity is founded. And ‘that’ event is what sparked the movement (the Church) that brought us the Bible. And upon what do you base this claim?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,875 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,875 Likes: 1 |
Religion would otherwise say the same, oh, and where did god come from? If God exists He has no beginning being Infinite, Intelligent, Energy. It might be a cute question to foolish people but it like asking, "To whom is the bachelor married?" Nobody is claiming that we came from nothing. Apparently you don't understand the theory of evolution. You ever hear of The Big Bang? Nothing became something and that something became intelligent people. All of this has been explained to you numerous times...did you not read what was said? Perhaps you didn't understand? Does it have to be repeated....only to have the same fallacies raised? Please explain the fallacies of the Big Bang. A lot of Atheist deconverted by reading the Bible. Jesus’ most devout first century followers never owned a Bible, never read a Bible...because there was no Bible to be had or read. But these men and women turned the world upside down; they’re the reason that people worship Jesus today; and they never held a Bible because there was no Bible until the fourth century. Not really, Christianity most likely would have remained a small cult had it not been for Paul's promotional work and Constantine adopting Christianity as his state religion. I guess you never heard about the other disciples who went out and taught others to go out.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
“These men and women” that I mentioned above actually saw Jesus die, and later they
saw Him alive.
How many verifiably saw such? A ballpark figure will do, and how you arrived at such figure.
Christianity most likely would have remained a small cult had it not been for Paul's promotional work and Constantine adopting Christianity as his state religion.
I guess you never heard about the other disciples who went out and taught others to go out. You sound unaware of the pivotal role Roman emperors sympathetic to Christianity, played in the spread of Christianity. Scholarly books on the Romans usually have A good solid chapter on religion\Christianity from which you can gain better understanding.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Joined: Jun 2008
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,516 Likes: 2 |
A lot of Atheist deconverted by reading the Bible. Jesus’ most devout first century followers never owned a Bible, never read a Bible...because there was no Bible to be had or read. But these men and women turned the world upside down; they’re the reason that people worship Jesus today; and they never held a Bible because there was no Bible until the fourth century. Not really, Christianity most likely would have remained a small cult had it not been for Paul's promotional work and Constantine adopting Christianity as his state religion. Yes really. “These men and women” that I mentioned above actually saw Jesus die, and later they saw Him alive. They witnessed the very event upon which Christianity is founded. And ‘that’ event is what sparked the movement (the Church) that brought us the Bible. And upon what do you base this claim? Are you denying it...? Are you claiming it didn’t happen...?
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,516 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,516 Likes: 2 |
I guess you never heard about the other disciples who went out and taught others to go out. You sound unaware of the pivotal role Roman emperors sympathetic to Christianity, played in the spread of Christianity. Scholarly books on the Romans usually have a good solid chapter on religion\Christianity. You attributed the above quote to me...a quote I clearly did not make.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
Yes my mistake on that(and corrected) but there's still this...
“These men and women” that I mentioned above actually saw Jesus die, and later they
saw Him alive.
How many verifiably saw such? A ballpark figure will do, and how you arrived at such figure.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,073 Likes: 4
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,073 Likes: 4 |
A lot of Atheist deconverted by reading the Bible. Jesus’ most devout first century followers never owned a Bible, never read a Bible...because there was no Bible to be had or read. But these men and women turned the world upside down; they’re the reason that people worship Jesus today; and they never held a Bible because there was no Bible until the fourth century. Not really, Christianity most likely would have remained a small cult had it not been for Paul's promotional work and Constantine adopting Christianity as his state religion. Yes really. “These men and women” that I mentioned above actually saw Jesus die, and later they saw Him alive. They witnessed the very event upon which Christianity is founded. And ‘that’ event is what sparked the movement (the Church) that brought us the Bible. And upon what do you base this claim? Are you denying it...? Are you claiming it didn’t happen...? Do you not believe that sources matter? Are you afraid to have that discussion?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,516 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,516 Likes: 2 |
“These men and women” that I mentioned above actually saw Jesus die, and later they
saw Him alive. How many verifiably saw such? A ballpark figure will do, and how you arrived at such figure. Why is ‘this’ question of interest to you...?
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,073 Likes: 4
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,073 Likes: 4 |
“These men and women” that I mentioned above actually saw Jesus die, and later they
saw Him alive. How many verifiably saw such? A ballpark figure will do, and how you arrived at such figure. Why is ‘this’ question of interest to you...? Why are you afraid to answer it?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,516 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,516 Likes: 2 |
And upon what do you base this claim? Are you denying it...? Are you claiming it didn’t happen...? Do you not believe that sources matter? Are you afraid to have that discussion? Again, are ‘you’ denying it...? And again, are ‘you’ claiming it didn’t happen...?
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,073 Likes: 4
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,073 Likes: 4 |
And upon what do you base this claim? Are you denying it...? Are you claiming it didn’t happen...? Do you not believe that sources matter? Are you afraid to have that discussion? Again, are ‘you’ denying it...? And again, are ‘you’ claiming it didn’t happen...? You are the one claiming it happened, Let's hear your evidence, or do you not have any?
Last edited by antelope_sniper; 02/19/20.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
Why is ‘this’ question of interest to you...? Curious minds want to know.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,516 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,516 Likes: 2 |
You are the one claiming it happened. Are ‘you’ claiming it didn’t happen...? Let's hear your evidence, or do you not have any? If ‘you’ are claiming it didn’t happen, let’s hear ‘your’ evidence, or do ‘you’ not have any...?
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Joined: Oct 2004
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,664 Likes: 1 |
A lot of Atheist deconverted by reading the Bible. Jesus’ most devout first century followers never owned a Bible, never read a Bible...because there was no Bible to be had or read. But these men and women turned the world upside down; they’re the reason that people worship Jesus today; and they never held a Bible because there was no Bible until the fourth century. Not really, Christianity most likely would have remained a small cult had it not been for Paul's promotional work and Constantine adopting Christianity as his state religion. Yes really. “These men and women” that I mentioned above actually saw Jesus die, and later they saw Him alive. They witnessed the very event upon which Christianity is founded. And ‘that’ event is what sparked the movement (the Church) that brought us the Bible. We don't have eyewitnesses telling us what they saw. What we have is anonymous authors giving their accounts on the basis of hearsay decades after the described events with copying a high degree of copying, Mark as the earlier version, etc
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,073 Likes: 4
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,073 Likes: 4 |
You are the one claiming it happened. Are ‘you’ claiming it didn’t happen...? Let's hear your evidence, or do you not have any? If ‘you’ are claiming it didn’t happen, let’s hear your evidence, or do ‘you’ not have any...? You are the one making the claim. I just asked you to provide your sources and evidence for it. If you don't have any, just admit it.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,073 Likes: 4
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,073 Likes: 4 |
A lot of Atheist deconverted by reading the Bible. Jesus’ most devout first century followers never owned a Bible, never read a Bible...because there was no Bible to be had or read. But these men and women turned the world upside down; they’re the reason that people worship Jesus today; and they never held a Bible because there was no Bible until the fourth century. Not really, Christianity most likely would have remained a small cult had it not been for Paul's promotional work and Constantine adopting Christianity as his state religion. Yes really. “These men and women” that I mentioned above actually saw Jesus die, and later they saw Him alive. They witnessed the very event upon which Christianity is founded. And ‘that’ event is what sparked the movement (the Church) that brought us the Bible. We don't have eyewitnesses telling us what they saw. What we have is anonymous authors giving their accounts on the basis of hearsay decades after the described events with copying a high degree of copying, Mark as the earlier version, etc What? The Gospels are anonymous copies of copies of copies of copies of copies, with our earliest version put to parchment centuries later? Really? Say it isn't so!! I wonder if that's why Antlers doesn't want to discuss sources, especially after making such a big deal about no {mostly) bibles existing until 400 years after the alleged events?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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