Yes I know, another of those threads.

At one time in my life I was young, and thought I could act as I pleased, this is contrary to my raising.

I found myself in a spot that taught me I was not as smart as I had thought.

I had let enough of God's word linger in my mind to know I had to reach out. I am every so glad I did.

Thank you Jesus.

Any of you good folks have anything to share?

Yes with heavy doses of Cartesian doubt.

Jesus said that only those who God calls will be saved. The question is, who gets the call? God is omniscient. He knows everything and everyone, past, present, future. He knows who will answer the call long before he gives it. He doesn't call the rest because he knows they won't answer. No, it's not predestination. It's foreknowledge. He doesn't control who will answer, he just knows who we are. While this passage says predestined as 1 step in the process, note that the foreknowing comes first. You have to answer 'yes' before the predestination comes in.

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

I guess because the orphanage was run by nuns??

I for one count myself as one by Gods grace alone. Suppose I was fortunate enough to be raised by multi generation family of Christian up-bringing. Not a perfect Christian to be sure and I know no perfect christians unless you want to count Jesus Christ.

Anyone considering and unsure if this is for them may I offer a opportunity to access a huge opportunity to take in the Gospel from the comfort of your own home from a family member that is a outstanding yet can be quite humble pastor of a southern California church of all places.

Check out the message archive under watch if you have time. So many options to select. Hope you find one that connects with you and or yours!

https://www.eastside.com/messagearchive

I strive, with difficulty, to be a follower of Jesus. The idea that the Power that created the universe is interested in having a relationship with me...one of His creations...resonates with me. Everything else really pales in comparison to that idea. Once that relationship was established, fine theological points that are so often considered important, evaporated. To know that when the Creator of all the universe is on your side...it changes your perspective and gives life real meaning. It makes my life better, and makes me better at life. And it causes me to see other people differently...I strive to see them the way that God sees them...made in the spiritual image of God, they are the supreme objects of His creation. I truly feel that extending grace to other people is the greatest opportunity that we’ll ever have, relationally, while we’re on this earth. “Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.“ - Jesus
I take ‘that’ to heart.

I like the abuse.

It's personal, a personal relationship with the Lord.

And to have the Peace that passes understanding, we can't get stuck in our understanding. I think that's where so many miss it. If they can't figure it out, in essence control the narrative, they're out.

So many attempting to follow the Lord don't want to die to self, take up their cross daily and follow him.

If He's to reign in your life, you gotta surrender your high places to Him. That's not always easy. Sometimes we have to reach the "bottom of our barrel" before we look up and ask Him for help, not too unlike the alcoholic.

DF

This.

This gal I was interested in had a bunch of good whitetail acreage, she told me a story 'bout free milk and a cow
And said, "No huggy, no kissy, until I get a Wedding Vow"

there was some church stuff attached to that too

I used to love the Georgia Satellites!

Seriously, back in the day they rocked.

Hahaha! Good edit.

Blame it on Saturday afternoon's festivities!

WHY ?

I don't like the 'alternative'.

It's a simple matter of choice - Jesus Vs HELL.

Not raised by them Jim.....

But slightly beaten into submission perhaps?

Not even sure I'm a "Christian" any more.................or any less perhaps.

But if I'm dyin' I ain't turning down the Extreme Unction stuff...................................Just in case.

Geno

lol

The pastor of her church met us at a beer joint and give us a talk bout pornication. Or something.

I wasn’t old enough to buy a beer. 😃

The only extreme unction you need is Jesus' promise of 'believe in me and you will be saved'. No priest, no sprinkling of water, no ceremony, just his promise.

Yeah,

But I ain't takin' no chances if there's a priest or fellow Catholic around to say the last rights.


Just in case.


Geno

I would be lost if I wasn’t. It has helped me through tough times.

I'm a follower of Christ, been aware of the spiritual part of me and others since I was old enough to have conscious thought. I never understood the 'born again in the spirit' claim by religion, when obviously we are born with the spirit. Anyway Christ's life, teachings, death, resurrection and the Holy spirit all make sense to what I felt at my earliest age.

It also doesn't negate other's spiritual awareness that never knew of Christ or put another name to God.

I'm a follower of Christ but not of religion with all it's exclusiveness, christian usually means a follower of a religion so I don't claim to be one.

Kent

Why Are You a Christian?

Because.... if I were a Muslim the would call me an "apostate" and cut my freaking head off....

Ditto.

I am a Christian because Jesus offered the free gift of salvation and eternal life. The only thing expected of me (a sinner) was to have faith in Jesus. That is all that was necessary. Eternal life is a free gift, freely offered, and freely received.

“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can snatch them out of my hand.” John 10:28

As a Christian, I am totally forgiven, righteous, reconciled, redeemed, justified, sanctified, part of the body of Jesus, a citizen of heaven, and I have eternal life.

“Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.” Acts 16:31

All we have to do is claim it and accept it. Jesus made it THAT easy for us. So I am a Christian because I want eternal life, and Jesus is my reality.

Apart from simple faith in the loving Savior, Jesus Christ, there can be no salvation. John 14:6. Jesus is enough for me.

There’s nothing we can do to be saved except accept Jesus. There’s nothing we can do to be lost with no hope of eternal life except decline the free gift of Jesus’s grace.

Why Am I a Christian? Because I heard the gospel, knew Jesus loves me and wants me. (I said "Yes" 50+ years ago.)

W.C. Fields was asked why he was reading the bible while he was on his deathbed. He replied " I'm looking for loopholes" He was an underappreciated philosopher and savant.



mike r

I dont have a choice. . There is only one way to the Father and that is through Jesus Christ. If I am wong what do I loose? If I am right , I gain paradise forever. After I became a Christian, I noticed I was not missing out on any fun. Matter of fact, I have a bunch more money from not going to bars, seeing " friends" that wanted to borrow 10 bucks and would be back tomorrow with the money. Never saw most of them again. My wife was attracted to me cause I was a solid young guy in the Lord. I still hear form some of my old buddies. One is dead, one is so over weight he cant do anything and the rest I knew are very old looking compared to me. A Christian life is a very good one. I go to a bigger somewhat Pentacostal church. It is amazing how young every looks. Women I thought were in college till I find they have Highschool daughters. One lady , I thought was 40, she is 54. Guys, look younger too. Living a life for Christ is not just to serve God, it is a guide to live a good life and it shows . I was pulbearer this afternoon. My cousin Kurt. He did not live for the Lord . He was 67 . Alcholalic , diabetic, and lived like a wildcat. Nicest guy in the world when he got older though.

When evolution fell apart for me I realized A Creator was necessary. After becoming a Creationist I read the Bible. It took a couple years and I accepted Jesus. The peace was overwhelming. Right then I knew what born again was all about.

That was forty-five years ago.

Eternity, Omniscience, Omnipotence - powerful and awesome beyond description.
Omnipresent Grace - offers the immense opportunity and sustenance.
Faith - to grasp the opportunity, follow and strive.
The Truth shall set you free.

For most people it’s where you were born. If you had been born in say India there is a good chance you would not be Christian. Ed k

I have no choice in the matter. HE made a believer out of me.

I find it funny you have to keep reminding us/yourself you are a “Christian”

This is a very good thread, few if any detractors, thank you.

Well, ifin you werent such a mean old azzwhole....

Truth. I thank GOD HE didnt screw up on where HE had the foresight to place me.

God called me.

It leads me to be as good a man as I can be and the joy that comes with it.

And you are my Dear Friend

Lynn

The Lord showed me the way to Him, and He has been with me ever since, through hell and back, He was there, and remains there with me always. Hallelujah ! Praise the the Lord ! Amen.

Lynn

Re: Why Are You a Christian?




This one's for Slumlord...

Why, because it helps me maintain and keep my freedom, it’s helps me keep the agency and freedom to choose that god gave me. Lastly it keeps my family together, in particular my marriage. Been divorced before and it only takes one of 2 party’s to destroy a family. If I am told tomorrow it’s all Santa Claus. I change nothing

"Quid est veritas" Saint Pontius Pilate. His words, (Jesus' words) answered it for me.

I am a child of the Father. Christian means many things to many people. But to be His child... you are, or you are not. To be sure, I am no easily loved child, and sometimes wonder why He chose me. But when He chooses you, it is His choice, not yours. You can’t pick your family, they say. Once chosen, it is incumbent on you to at least attempt to live as the Father would desire of you, and to study to understand what that is. I struggled for years to fit God to the box I thought He should fit, and as I previously have stated here, with one sentence, He destroyed that box and showed me my position relative to Him. Call it a come-to-Jesus meeting with Dad, the one where He says one thing that lets you know that He is in charge, and you just need to let it go. The peace of finally understanding that I am the child and He is the ruler of all things is indescribable.

When you know that everything that happens is His will, it makes it impossible to worry, or to hate your circumstance. If all is His will, and His will is good, then to worry or complain is to place yourself in charge of that which you cannot control. To me, the peace that passes understanding is what is possessed by the person who is in their proper place with the Father, because they know He controls all things, and what He does is good. We are not the arbiters of good, He is. Our job is simply to trust. Reaching that point has brought me more peace than I ever thought possible.

Well said.

The pigs with good fortune, who are well fed and wallow in the pond water, are always happy to squeal and holler.

Opus Dei is where it’s at...Suffering is an art form.😎

I can't imagine how empty my life would be without having faith in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. And while my life doesn't always reflect it, He is the most important thing in my life. I love Him, because He first loved me. And gave Himself as a sacrifice for me, to pay the price for my sins. Someday we will all bow before Him and acknowledge Him as Lord.

Not a fan of religion, but Jesus Christ is my savior. Took many years to come to HIM but a better life is knowing HIM. I struggle every day to be better than I am. Especially with what the left is trying to do to our great country. And I do mean I Struggle. I know GOD is in control but I also know HE gave us free will. We can screw it up as much as we choose, And there in lies the problem and why we have to continue to fight the evil that is confronting our great nation.

I liked your PRE edit ----> Kentucky Headhunters. Dumas Walkers

Because the other team would not take me.

I became a Christain because as a young boy, my Dad taught me to love Jesus first. Secondly, he taught me to love my family and how to treat my fellow man. He lived his faith and it always made me proud. powdr

And the winner is......because my parents were.

Do you think you would be a Christian if you were born in Saudi Arabia?
Or India?
Or Japan?
Or Nepal?

No winner there - you are so very wrong.

I have posted this before, and it's still the reason I believe.




1) The odds: Scientist says that the odds of all of the amino acids, proteins, etc. came together at the same time in the right place to get electrically charged to create a cell (the simplest form of life) is around 10 to the 40,000th power (this is a 10 with 39,999 zeros behind it). Mathematicians say that anything higher than 10 to the 50th power is impossible to happen through random chance. Charles Darwin thought that the cell was very simple but today we know better. One cell contains enough information that if printed out would take over 500,000 pages.

2) Design and purpose: Albert Einstein (one of the smartest men to walk the Earth) did not profess to be a Christian but he did believe in a creator. Einstein said that when he looked at the universe and the way all things worked together, he saw design and purpose. If I gave you a watch and told you that the watch had evolved over millions of years because nature knew that man needed a way to tell time you would think I was crazy! But we have been taught to believe that (even though thousands of times more complicated) our eyes, nose, ears, etc. just evolved because we needed them.

3) Ignorance of man: Just a few years ago the scientific community was on fire celebrating the fact that they had created life for the first time. Over thousands of years one of man's greatest accomplishments was to copy the simplest form of life (a cell) and reproduce it. If this is the best that we can do, why then would I put faith in the ignorance of man to tell me how we came to be.

4) Population growth rate: Studies of population growth rate shows us that there is around a 2% growth rate in the human population. If you take the 7 billion people alive today, and reverse that at a rate of 2% you will come up with roughly somewhere between 7,000 to 10,000 years. Which goes hand-in-hand with what the Bible tells us. If you go back just 25,000 years with a 2% growth rate you will come up with 100+ billion people, but we have nowhere near this today. Scientist say that humans have walked the Earth for 500,000+ years. Surely over 500,000 years (even with disease or famine nearly wiping out the human population several times) there would be periods of 10 to 20 thousand years with no catastrophic disease or famine, but there is no evidence of large populations. Most scientists agree that there are almost as many people alive today as there are dead.

Trash this post. It's too deep and complicated for unbelievers to comprehend, therefore, impossible.

Schiett exploded a long time ago. They told us that in skool. Therefore, I no.

Yes I am.

Indeed Paul. The very reason I tossed it years ago. Catholicism pounded down my throat when I was far too young to understand. A travesty...

January 3, 1954,
Einstein reply to Eric Gutkind:

"The word God is for me nothing but the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of venerable but still rather primitive legends. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can (for me) change anything about this... For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions."

March 1954,
Einstein reply to Joe Dispentiere:

" It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

EINSTEINS book of Ideas and Opinions (1954) stated:

"In their struggle for the ethical good, teachers of religion must have the stature to give up the doctrine of a personal God, that is, give up that source of fear and hope which in the past placed such vast power in the hands of priests."

1950, Einstein letter to M. Berkowitz:

"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment."


April 1929, Einstein cable to Rabbi Herbert S. Goldstein:

"I believe in Spinoza's God {of Philosophy} , who
reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists,
not in a God who concerns himself with the fate
and the doings of mankind."


December 1922 Einstein stated the following on the concept of a savior:

"Denominational traditions I can only consider historically and psychologically; they have no other significance for me."


EINSTEIN to Japanese magazine Kaizō 1923:

"Scientific research can reduce superstition by encouraging people to think and view things in terms of cause and effect. Certain it is that a conviction, akin to religious feeling, of the rationality and intelligibility of the world lies behind all scientific work of a higher order.... This firm belief, a belief bound up with a deep feeling, in a superior mind that reveals itself in the world of experience, represents my conception of God.."

People who have had no contact with the bible or Christianity cannot become Christians, that can only happen through conditioning, conversion or people being drawn to the faith once it has been established....missionaries or evangelism at work, etc.

We are supposed to be that influence on our children.

Proverbs 22:6 (NKJV)
6 Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it.

Well said and the truth.
A Founding Father, one of the main ones, said the same thing.

"As I have now given you my reasons for believing that the Bible is not the word of God, that it is a falsehood, I have a right to ask you your reasons for believing the contrary; but I know you can give me none, except that you were educated to believe the Bible; and as the Turks give the same reason for believing the Koran, it is evident that education makes all the difference, and that reason and truth have nothing to do in the case. [[[[ ["You believe in the Bible from the accident of birth, and the Turks believe in the Koran from the same accident, and each calls the other 'infidel.'"] ]]]]] But leaving the prejudice of education out of the case, the unprejudiced truth is, that all are infidels who believe falsely of God, whether they draw their creed from the Bible, or from the Koran, from the Old Testament, or from the New.

When you have examined the Bible with the attention that I have done, (for I do not think you know much about it,) and permit yourself to have just ideas of God, you will most probably believe as I do. But I wish you to know that this answer to your letter is not written for the purpose of changing your opinion. It is written to satisfy you, and some other friends whom I esteem, that my disbelief of the Bible is founded on a pure and religious belief in God; for in my opinion the Bible is a gross libel against the justice and goodness of God, in almost every part of it.

I find this interesting also.

Why not go to another thread and enjoy other topics?

Jesus said that God's desire is that NO man would perish. Everyone has a chance at salvation, no matter where they're born or who their parents are. How this happens to those in pagan countries we aren't told, just that it happens. Everyone, there and here, has a chance. Some grab it but the majority reject it, even when it's right in front of them. One thing's for sure, many on this forum can't stand in front of God at the judgement and say 'I never heard'. Just in reading this forum you've heard.

Believe me folks, it would be an easier thing to do, just keep Faith under cover. be one of the regular cool, tough guys here.

We are told to spread good news, the Gospel.

Scientists are always looking for life 'out there'. The odds of it spontaneously happening here are 1 in billions. The odds of it happening a 2d time 'out there' are 1 in billions squared. The odds of happening twice are so low as to be completely ludicrous.

Thomas Paine died on June 8, 1809, in NYC and was buried on his property in New Rochelle. On his deathbed, his doctor asked him if he wished to accept Jesus Christ before passing. “I have no wish to believe on that subject,” Paine replied before taking his final breath.

Smug arrogance to the end.

He also said,

“I am not an atheist,” he began.

“The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the
position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in
many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books.
It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they
are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the
arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to
me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God.
We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but
only dimly understand these laws.”

Check out the Apostles Creed.

Furthermore, who would die for a lie? Many Apostles died for spreading what they knew was true.

This world, this time, this place, is no accident. God has a purpose for us.

Yep, we are to spread the Gospel, AND.......we are to serve our fellow man. I reckon that’s why we end up doing mission trips to places like Montana, along with trying to cover things in our own state.

Ah yes.....bassackwardsism.

Far more who were NOT apostles died for the Truth of the Gospel, and continue dying for those Truth's to this day, and will until the Lord returns.

These are "interesting" times, though many will not bend the knee until it's too late.

The point being I don't have to keep telling Christians that I'm a Christian, nor do I have to keep reminding myself.
Anyone interested in spreading the Gospel needs to spread it with non believers.

In his own words concerning his belief.................................


You may have an opinion that a man is inspired, but you cannot prove it, nor can you have any proof of it yourself, because you cannot see into his mind in order to know how he comes by his thoughts; and the same is the case with the word 'revelation.' There can be no evidence of such a thing, for you can no more prove revelation than you can prove what another man dreams of, neither can he prove it himself.

It is often said in the Bible that God spake unto Moses, but how do you know that God spake unto Moses? Because, you will say, the Bible says so. The Koran says, that God spake unto Mahomet, do you believe that too? No. Why not? Because, you will say, you do not believe it; and so because you do, and because you don't is all the reason you can give for believing or disbelieving except that you will say that Mahomet was an impostor. And how do you know Moses was not an imposter? For my own part, I believe that all are impostors who pretend to hold verbal communication with the Deity. It is the way by which the world has been imposed upon; but if you think otherwise you have the same right to your opinion that I have to mine, and must answer for it in the same manner. But all this does not settle the point, whether the Bible be the 'word of God,' or not. It is therefore necessary to go a step further. The case then is: --

You form your opinion of God from the account given of him in the Bible; and I form my opinion of the Bible from the wisdom and goodness of God manifested in the structure of the universe, and in all works of Creation. The result in these two cases will be, that you, by taking the Bible for your standard, will have a bad opinion of God; and I, by taking God for my standard, shall have a bad opinion of the Bible.

The Bible represents God to be a changeable, passionate, vindictive Being; making a world and then drowning it, afterwards repenting of what he had done, and promising not to do so again. Setting one nation to cut the throats of another, and stopping the course of the sun till the butchery should be done. But the works of God in the Creation preach to us another doctrine. In that vast volume we see nothing to give us the idea of a changeable, passionate, vindictive God; everything we there behold impresses us with a contrary idea, -- that of unchangeableness and of eternal order, harmony, and goodness. The sun and the seasons return at their appointed time, and everything in the Creation proclaims that God is unchangeable. Now, which am I to believe, a book that any impostor might make and call the 'word of God,' or the Creation itself which none but an Almighty Power could make? For the Bible says one thing, and the Creation says the contrary. The Bible represents God with all the passions of a mortal, and the Creation proclaims him with all the attributes of a God.

It is from the Bible that man has learned cruelty, rapine, and murder; for the belief of a cruel God makes a cruel man. That bloodthirsty man, called the prophet Samuel, makes God to say, (i Sam. xv. 3,) "Now go and smite Amaleck, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."

I have what many Christians would consider a warped view of spirituality. So it’s a bit of a comfort to find I am not alone.

I can’t see the things I’ve seen & not be convinced there’s a higher power.

Plus some of the best & most successful men I’ve known have been devout in their faith. Even if you could prove it was just a big fairy tale, there’s power in submitting ourselves to a higher power that guides our thoughts, words & actions

Sorry brother, this is a great forum w/ lots of good info but not a stellar source of moral or spiritual guidance. Or medical or financial advice. Spirituality comes in many forms not included in a book.

mike r

Spirituality doesn't equal salvation.

I find this to be very true.
After years of religion from the organized church corporations, I'll take Spirituality over religious salvation.

And yet salvation is 100% spiritual and 0% physical/worldly.

Kent

That's what I was taught in church too but it seems many of the Christians here disagree with you.

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

There it is in a nutshell. You believe or you don't. You're saved or you're not. There's no other option.

No, it's not. Talk is cheap. Actions mean everything, BUT, those actions must not be for others to know.

I find it interesting that other 'christians' feel the need to deride others of their faith.
I find it more interesting when those whose words/actions often show their hypocrisy tend to do so.

Seems simple enough, but what about God calling only those who he knows will answer, and not bothering with the others?

Many do not, will not take Him up on it.

It's your choice. That fact that God already knows what it will be doesn't affect anything. It's still your choice.

Ok.
Scenario.

I am your neighbor, I have cookies for sale.....I know you don’t eat cookies because of your sugar diabetes but knowing you are my neighbor and we are friends and I don’t want to hurt your feelings I ask you anyways knowing well ahead you will not purchase them.
In this case I know you won’t buy my cookies....I offer them to you anyways because we are great friends....you still say no. Now what?

I am trying to explain to myself how to get to the timing. Some conversions have taken decades.

Why am I a Christian? Short answer is: Because Christ died for me and paid the penalty for my sin.

Jesus said "repent and believe the gospel"...i did, and continue to.

I could expound on some theology of God's efficacious call, etc. I hold to more of what some call a reformed doctrine. I found Romans 9 answered a lot of my questions. I'm not looking to debate, but glad to discuss this by pm.

I was raised in a family that worshipped God through Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit but decided I wanted freedom. I went out and tried to invent a worldview that would allow me to do what I wanted when I wanted. I found pursuit of my appetites a pointless and empty endeavor.

Once my God’s grace allowed me to get to the point where I was in so much pain I had to kill myself or bend the knee to the Lord of the universe I became sane and said as did the great king, I ...” lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever...”

I cannot see another worldview that doesn’t lead to nihilism and we’re reaping our collective abandonment of the Lord of Heaven.

My life is not my own and I am deeply grateful for that. I have been chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world NOT (THERE IS NO WAY OBVIOUSLY) because I am better than anyone, but because God “will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy”

The foreknowledge argument either ignores the plain meaning of the text (ie God foreknew everyone which would lead to universalism) or adds to it “those He foreknew would choose Him...” but in any case it ignores the clear teaching of Scripture that apart from the work of the Holy Spirit in the heart of depraved man we are all without hope of any kind whatsoever.

Well said...

So the question is why did The Christian God go soft couple millennia ago?

I find it both interesting and informative, hearing the different answers to this question, probably the most important question of all times.

I appreciate the responses, in essence testimonies of who we are and whose we are.

There were two trees in the Garden of Eden. Each and everyone of us has roots in one or the other. Google the Spiritual significance of Two Trees in the Garden, discover your roots.

Not having a position IS a position, default is a declaration.

DF

.

Two trees?

Genesis 2:8And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

There were many trees in the Garden. Likely hundreds or even thousands, that were pleasant to look at and good for food. But there was only one that God told the man they could not eat of it. And we all, with certain exceptions, know what happened next..........

The two trees referenced are the Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Focus on those two. Interesting stuff.

DF

Amen.

That was the problem: Adam, and later Eve, focusing on the only tree God forbid them from eating of, with the introduction of Satan in the Garden. It did not appear to be hard for Adam, but Eve was a different story. God stacked the deck.

God “stacked the deck”? Are you suggesting He is a trickster?

If one reads the interaction between the serpent & Eve you can see that human kinds’ tendency to doubt God’s word existed before the serpent even came along. The father of lies coaxed along a tendency already existent.

God, however, has always been about the business of redemption from the beginning. He is, by definition, the One who is in control of the universe and owes man nothing. The post enlightenment worship of individual autonomy is today isogeted into the texts to support our notion that we are in control even of Gods redemptive plan for His people.

Depends on the nature of the decision making process and its inputs.

Some find the bible convincing, others don't. Some find the Qur'an or Gita convincing, others don't.

Do you have a choice in what you find is convincing to you? Can you choose to be convinced in the 'truth' of the Hindu world view, for example?

Being omniscient He would have known it was happening in real time, would have known it was coming, would have known what would happen...

Not to mention it was all by His Creation. He’s in charge of all of it...



Seems to me there’s not really any choice about it

In light of all the Einstein quotes I provided, That is lame and does nothing to give substance to christian mythology.

Einstein like the Founding Fathers and ancient philosophical Greeks (which the F/Fathers gave their due
consideration and respects to) , woke up and saw the folly in religions.
but no doubt we have CF christians steeped in backward minded middle-east cult superstitions
that consider themselves brighter-more aware than the above.

just waiting for a clueless CF goose to claim our western civilzation owes itself to the mythology
of Judeo-Christrianity...LOL

And not one direct answer to my questions.

Do Christians believe that the other 3/4 of the world are going to hell?

And apparently all the evil in the world is only done by us 70% ers.

You allegory is incomplete.

If you were god, you would also have been the one to give your neighbor diabetes, before offering him the cookies, you know he wouldn't accept.

No. Not true.
Read the book of Job.
That job of giving my neighbor diabetes was satans, being an all knowing and powerful god I gave him permission to give my neighbor diabetes.
That way I have another venue to get my neighbors attention = through healing.
He tries multiple ways but people being people look past all that and lay the blame on Him.

Tom is saying God hires bad ass mercenaries, ones no longer good enough for heaven
but well suited to doing wicked dirty deeds on earth as sanctioned by God.





so set fire to your neigbors house, just so you can come in with garden hose to display
how much you care for your neighbor.

The book of Job does not paint a nice picture of God or the company He keeps.

“Sanctioned”? more like allowed.
They are sanctioned by satan.

you dont know what 'sanctioned" means?



SANCTION

[ˈsaŋ(k)ʃ(ə)n]
VERB
.
sanctioned (past tense) · sanctioned (past participle)

1.give official permission or approval for (an action).

W/o going back and reading the whole thread, how many christians has the fire executed this time?

Satan in the OT is sanctioned by God, being the creation and agent of God, doing the will of God.

i know exactly what it means.
God does not do the destruction Himself.
He gives permission or approval to satan to do it....duh.

lol...you are certified dope.

Fireball,

I don't think we've made it to The Inquisition and all the non-Christians executed in the name of God yet on this thread.

How did people get the idea of being brutal prior to the Bible? It started about 3,500 years ago.

Because God revealed himself to me

So conspiracy to commit murder should be legal?

By your standards Mao and Stalin were ok guys since they didn't do the murdering themselves.

You are off by a couple of orders of magnitude....per your usual.

Did god create the shriners to soothe the suffering of those kids that satan messed up?


mike r

Mao and Stalin were tools in the hand of satan given permission by God to carry out His ultimate plan.
Call God what you will, one day you can ask Him face to face your own questions in your own Snyde way.
We’ll see how far that carries you.

There are a LOT more Christians in those countries than you can imagine. You don't hear about them because it's often illegal to be a Christian. It can be death. There are missionaries working under cover in all of them and their results are amazing. People there are starving for the truth. Jesus said that if you knock the door will be opened. Many are knocking and everyone who does will get an answer.

Apparently it's quite fine to have people tortured or killed as long as you don't get your own hands dirty.

Besides, the bible describes God killing people personally and directly.

So ? You never read Job?
Got it.

Try reading your own posts to see how stupid you are.

good grief....reading comprehension is apparently not your thing.
Mao and Stalin DID the killing
God ALLOWED it
MY standards are not even in the equation.....

So starman has no comeback worth anything?
Name calling now?
Pffft

I find it interesting how you are unable to critically evaluate the morality of your god sanctioning the misery wrought by Stalin and Mao, then, in the same breath, issue your threats of hellfire for those who would dare to question.

Its not name calling, you actually are stupid
as demonstrated.

For you (for some stupid reason) , argued against my
completely appropriate use of the word 'sanctioned'.

That’s because you nor I have ZERO authority or anything to question God in His decisions.
Carry on.

Well that depends...are you the one who made me diabetic?

Not sure I can add anything other than I daily thank the Lord for saving me. He sent his son to die an awful death that my sins be forgiven and I have life everlasting. He lives me way more than I ever deserve. Not always/usually what I want but always what I need.

No.

You really think Mao and Stalin personally pulled the trigger 150 million times, just the two of them? Or did they delegate, like how you claim your god delegates to your satin.

God delegating to Satin, who delegates to Stalin and Mao, who delegate to their underlings, doesn't change the Christian position that all this suffering and Evil starts with your God.

In the words of Epicurus:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then from whence comes evil?"

Good grief........

And that is this biggest problem with religious types such as yourself. It is your unwillingness to ask the hard questions, such as does a given claim of a supernatural being meet it's burden of proof. If it does, is this being moral and ethical, and if not, would it be moral and ethical for me to follow it?

My grandparents raised me from about 3 to 11.my grandmother always talked about religion and sent me to sunday school . so it is her fault that I have some belief in god . and it influences how I make decisions.

I don’t need proof if I have faith.

Sorry just got in from working and didn't see the thread had moved on...

I can’t say it better than He did:

Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?
8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt’?
12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.
16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.
19 “What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
20 Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!
22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?
24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,
26 to water a land where no one lives,
an uninhabited desert,
27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?
28 Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
30 when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?
31 “Can you bind the chains[b] of the Pleiades?
Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons[c]
or lead out the Bear[d] with its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up God’s[e] dominion over the earth?
34 “Can you raise your voice to the clouds
and cover yourself with a flood of water?
35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?
36 Who gives the ibis wisdom[f]
or gives the rooster understanding?[g]
37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
38 when the dust becomes hard
and the clods of earth stick together?
39 “Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
and satisfy the hunger of the lions
40 when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in a thicket?
41 Who provides food for the raven
when its young cry out to God
and wander about for lack of food?

Many people have faith, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Buddhist, Shinto, etc, etc..... faith cannot sort fact from fiction.

Correction, Mao and Stalin, et al, had other people doing the killing.

You can come up with nothing better than a 41 verse Red Herring?

If you really thought this through, I think you could do much better, but, I suspect you are not comfortable with where it would lead.

The bible describes a set of values that we are told are dear to God, that God is the embodiment of these values.....yet we have God described breaking these very same values. That is the problem.

I'll not debate your contention but, even if true, it does not support your declarative statement about "the winner".

Yes. Is that direct?

I agree with your comment about the parental role.

Could call it brainwashing

Have you like many christians ever prayed to
your God to change God given circumstances
more to your liking?

Those who truelly trust and believe in God's will be done,
Have no reason to send prayers to try and influence Him.
You either trust God already has a complete handle
on things or you don't.

Anyone praying to God to change what He has already dealt them, is effectively questioning His decisions.

No Mauser, being a born again Christian is something only a born again Christian understands.

Thank you! This get right to the heart of the matter I think,at least for me. Some people have faith in a certain set of beliefs,in this instance Christianity, and some don't. The big question that I've been trying to figure out for a long time is if there is a choice to be made to have faith or not. So far I can't really see how there is.
The trouble arises when those with faith try to convince those without using evidence, or those without try to convince those with faith that they have evidence to the contrary.

Invariably it seems one side finds the evidence convincing, the other doesn't. Again, I can't see a choice there, it just is what it is. How does one choose to believe what they find unbelievable? How can one stop believing something that they absolutely believe?

I don't really have good answers to these questions, but they are the reason I follow these topics.

Wouldn't teaching a child to believe in a pagan sect be considered child abuse?

You certainly live in a vacuum. There Muslims who became Christian because Jesus came to them.

Read the book The Case For Miracles.

Well good folks, when the time is right for you to take that precious Hand, I hope you do.

Spiritual matters are spiritually revealed. I couldn't believe either until it was revealed to me.

Every one has faith. They exercise it by believing what they can't know. Some believe, by faith, God is. Others, by faith, believe He is not. At least one can point to information and say it can't happen with out Intelligence. The other uses blind faith and believes nothing made information.

Why are you unbelievers and atheists SO SO SO obsessed with Christianity?

You mean you had a Paul type revelation?

Do claims of spiritual revelation from
Non Christians count?.. or is such only
possible through being a Christian?

look up the book of Isaiah in the Bible where the king Hezekia asked God for more life......and see what God did for him.
That changed Gods thoughts on the matter for he was told his would die immediately and his life was prolonged another 15 years.
Prayer changes things..

👍🏻 I think there may be a lot more with a like mind than you think.

Not sure if you were talking to me, but I'm not an atheist and I find all kinds of things that humans do and beleive to be fascinating. Religion is very interesting to me,especially when you get to observe numerous different people from different backgrounds and life experiences try to explain why they beleive as they do and rationalize those beliefs. I'm not here to change anyone's mind, or start any fights.

Only because the respondants on this forum are christian, otherwise we non-believers are of the same view of all religions.

In what ways have your prayers changed God's
thoughts or plans?

If I knew I’d be God.....

I appreciate these questions. I believe scripture teaches that we are bound by our nature. We don't choose God because our nature is to rebel. We can only repent and believe when we've been given a new nature. That's the spiritual rebirth that Jesus spoke of with Nicademus.

I find this forum format difficult to have a meaningful dialogue. I hope this helps.

So you have no clue what effect your prayers have on your God.

but you think you can change his mind.

Hey Starman, why don’t you start an unbeliever’s thread? Why do you want to dump on the believer’s thread?
Why are you so obsessed in our love of Jesus Christ our Lord?

Better yet, why don’t you have the balls to believe in Jesus Christ?

Praying changes us. Not God.

Trying to paint me in a corner huh?
Even if I gave several examples you would laugh them off and ridicule.

So Hezekia changed his own life expectancy?

Sorry not into feeble minded mythological middle eastern
cult figures... But nobody is stopping you.

I didn't expect you to understand what I said, and you have confirmed my expectation.

Just a hint, it has nothing to do with the fact that some do happen to convert....which is what I said.

Did you consider the fact that there are people who convert to Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, etc? What do you think that means?

There you go, learn something new every day, I didn't think that it takes balls to be convinced that something is true.

Why are you SO obsessed with Christianity?

We seem to under a counter attack, I think we can stand up to it.

You paint yourself into a corner you goose.

First you admit you don't know how effective your
prayers are cause you ain't God..
Next you say you have some (secret) examples
that (convinced?) you that your prayers worked.

Make up your fvkng mind.

The tragic question is why are you so obsessed with ancient mythology, that you allow to control every part of you life?

See?
Talking with you is like talking with a 2 yr old.
I’m saying one thing and you are saying another.
Calling names tells the audience you have nothing else to add so you delve into insults.
Congratulations.

NO, your posts clearly show you saying two
different things regarding your prayers.

Not a red herring in the least. I don’t care to question the most high God of the universe. The poem illustrates the gall of the man who presumes to question One who is outside time & space.

Debating people who don’t see that as utter foolishness is a waste of time.

As it is written,

“For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools”

Prove that it’s ancient mythology. You have assumed the opposite of what you’re trying to prove, self-refuting. Your unbelief presupposes belief.

Your unbelief is a secular myth and an embarrassment.

Job is a wonderful account of God's grace and mercy..

Job was refined by fire and purified. Job at the end of the book is a better man than when it started. Job was initially said to be a righteous man, but somewhat self righteous. Job thought God was his ace card. When it's over, Job is God's ace card, not the other way around.

The refiner's fire is usually pretty hot. Adversity makes one bitter or better depending on what he brings to the equation.

Some understand it, some don't. Here's why:

1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV)
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


DF

I did have a revelation.

I'll let someone else engage you on whether others can have revelations and where those come from and what they might be.

LOL.... Well of course all other ancient
Norse, Greek, Persian, Roman, Celtic,
Asiatic. Etc etc. Mythology is just that,
and accepted by scholars as such.

All Except for your ancient safety blanket cult belief.

TFF.



Spoken just like we would expect by
a member of any religious cult.

You are clearly confused I am not.
Especially when it comes to God.

If that child believes in Jesus, it's way beyond child abuse.

Mt 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Starman, in this thread it looks as though you and your usual tactics have been exposed. Well - uh - I suppose one would say that you have exposed yourself.

What are my 'usual tactics'..?
go ahead expose me!..

Crusty old kook btthurt christians are a laugh a minute.

Yes sir, it is hard to discuss something this big and complicated in such a limiting manner, but we try! I appreciate your response.

Children aren't born with any understanding. They accept what's told to them and aren't necessarily capable of the logic to determine fact from fiction. They believe in Santa for a good many years. Wonder how many are "Clayton" believers who don't really believe and go through the motions to keep their family happy, and avoid being dis-owned by them. Religion breeds fear and actually existis because of it. Lucky for me I was born and raised in a non-believing family and had the commense sense, and experiences, to recognise the believers as the nutcases they really are (the blaspheming, child abusing, angery catholics down the road helped forge my understanding).

What about the other 1.2 Billion Muslims?

What about all the Christians who converted to Islam?

You don't even understand the difference between information and a chemical reaction.

Born that way.

It's interesting to me how many Christians claim to believe due to a fear of hell, or a fear of no after life. So who is it that lacks balls?

Same reason not to believe in any other supernatural being, lack of sufficient evidence.

Sounds like an admission to the weak nature of your examples.

I have no fear of hell....totally wrong assessment in my case.
I love my God.
I want to please Him and make Him proud of me.
If He still sends me to Hell then if there is a chance that I could still love Him in hell I would still love Him with all that is in me.

Just not with logic and reason.

Lol.

Who are the revelation experts on the CF
That are capable of soundly judging
Non Christian revelations?

Are you suggesting we take the word of
bias christians to decide the veracity
of non Christian revelation experiences?

God is not known by logic and reason.

Not to worry about his family, servants and livestock, killed by God to prove a point that he himself raised, knowing the outcome from the beginning. A fine display of mercy and justice, haha.

Let this cat be the pied piper of his “logic and reason”, marching over the hill to his land of bliss. Be done with this dude. There are sooooooo many places and people that you can spend your efforts on. I’d move on to better ground.

Do you actually have such examples
that convinced you your prayers worked?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

Your argument presupposed a lot, that your God exists, and that he's the "Most High God of the Universe". If that was the case, it should be self evident from the writings, morals, ethics, and values attributed to him. I just don't see that as being the case, so as a skeptic, it is my to question these writing as ask if they are relevant or outdated, necessary or arbitrary, helpful or oppressive.

Morals do exist outside of organized religion, and the ‘morality’ taught by many of these archaic systems is often outdated, sexist, racist, and teaches intolerance and inequality. When a parent forces a child into a religion, the parent is effectively handicapping his or her own offspring by limiting the abilities of the child to question the world around him or her and make informed decisions. Children raised under these conditions will mature believing that their religion is the only correct one, and, in the case of Christianity, they will believe that all who doubt their religion’s validity will suffer eternal damnation. This environment is one that often breeds hate, ignorance, and ‘justified’ violence.”
― David G. McAfee

So you are suggestion he move on to someone more gullible?

Yes.


Happy?

Thank you

Replied...

Pearls before swine is a waste of wealth...

Swine? It is swine who like to think and question?

Was supposed to be “if I knew ALL I’d be God”

No Tom, you are clearly confused.

How a person can be utterly convinced of such
things, while at the same time admitting he can't
truely know such things cause he ain't God,

Is nonsense talk,.. or is it just one of the mysteries Of Christianity?

Your God may not work by logic and reason
but you being only human should try it.

Ok sure.
We’ll see when it all ends who’s the confused one.

What, more threats of Hell?

It’s not a threat.
It’s what’s written in The Bible.
I’m just repeating what it says.
Not my word.

Laffin.....You know EXACTLY what I mean. There is no gray area here, and you know it!

Of course it's a threat.

You're like the mafia enforcer.....nice life you have here, it would be a shame if something happened to it. I'm not threatening you, I'm just relaying a message from The Boss.

A threat delivered on behalf of someone else, even a mythical creature, is still a threat.

It's a ruthless Boss who throws people into Hell for their beliefs or their lack of conviction. Reason would say: convince the person, not torture them.

Antelope -sniper is like the rich man that fared sumptuously everyday, then died. One day, he’ll lift up his eyes, being in Hell, and beg for a single drop of water.

He is lost and has rejected God. My guess is he has crossed that line, so be done with him. Don’t argue, don’t explain....he has made his decision, let him die with it. You can pray for him, but not much else.

Very direct.
So your God sent the vast majority of the humans who have ever lived to the earth merely to send them to Hell.

I'll pass on that God.

Yeah.
I’m done casting my pearls......

You guys win.







I tried.

I don't see the unbelievers starting up these threads.
I have largely stayed out of them in the past but do you all really need to pass out your Watchtower magazines every week?

Bristecd,

I see no good evidence for the existence of your hell.

Take a look at the arguments made tonight. They fall into three categories,

Faith: the excuse one used when they have no evidence, or in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Threats: The immoral proposition that your god sends everyone to hell for his failure to provide sufficient evidence,

Bible verses: Which are totally irrelevant until there's sufficient evidence to believe in your mythos.

My minds open to being changed when provided with sufficient evidence, your side just doesn't have any good evidence, let alone anything approaching extraordinary evidence to support your extraordinary claims.

Tom,

There are plenty of areas where you can do some good. Focus on those.

You are the one who admitted you have no good evidence to present, just Faith.

No its far more than that, even if you are of
The 'wrong' denomination of rival christian
you won't receive the same grace of God.

And thinking that sand is pearls is a waste of intellect.

For some believers the club is even smaller, with only 144,000 Jew's being admitted to heaven, all who are virgins and never told a single lie. And this appears in the New Testament.

Revelation 7:3–8:
... saying: "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the servants of God on their foreheads."
And I heard the number of the sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.[1]

Revelation 14:1:
Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.[2]

Revelation 14:3–5:
And they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. For it is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.[3]

That makes for a very small heaven, and a very crowded Hell.

“Fuck ‘em”
-God

I don't think my wife would like knowing she has defiled me.....................nor any of the other womens I lay with.

Geno

You and I both knew it was coming.
Its the std. last ditch pitch served up
around here.

Tom prob didn't know how immune
I am to such, Having grown up around
Irish and Mediterranean Roman Catholics,
attending Catholic schools, etc.



Everyone falls short of God, thus I can't see what
Any man can do to impress God/make him proud
... It sounds absurd.

AS,

Please know that it is not a Christian duty or responsibility to convince you about the reality of God and the reality of Jesus and the gift. Folks such as I can point the way ..... explain little or much depending upon the “ears” that hear us....hold you up in prayer before the Father... so on and so forth ...But, it is the Holy Spirit of God .... not me or others.....that shows the clear and weighty truth to the honest seeker of God.

God will not hold me responsible for your eternal destiny. That is between you and God.

Those that have ears to hear, will indeed hear. Those that “stick their own fingers in their ears” ..... for whatever reason they do.... those are the ones that will not hear and not believe and who have not yet received the gift.

Also....There has been much talk about evidence or “proof.” There is proof. As, I have previously related, God spoke to me..... God proved Himself to me. I related that experience on this Forum.

I have proof and you don’t. Our differences may be as simple as that. Seek the proof.... it is there.


Btw....regarding “threat” ....... when one recognizes an “indication of impending.....whatever.....trouble, risk or danger....”...... a responsible caring person might warn the one who is at risk. With that thought in mind, yes, I fear for you and am trying to warn you. Others have as well. Kinda like warning someone of a runaway horse headed their way.....”Watch Out!”

Not to say that preaching hellfire is of no value, but it seems to me that simply threatening some one with hellfire will do little good. Sometimes yes, but why would they be afraid of hellfire from a God they place no stock in? Seems that something specific from the Holy Spirit has to have been communicated first. Anyway, that is a digression.

This is your life and a hand has been dealt to you..... play it wisely.

ATB,

TF

No need - it's already hanging out fully exposed all to see. And, who is laughing?

Proof is a body of information that anyone can access and evaluate and draw a similar conclusion. Personal experience is subjective.

Also, it's not a matter of who 'wins' but what is true.

It is available to anyone that sincerely seeks to know. The problem is most don't.

Logic and reason are some of the processes developed by humans - apparently in the quest to gain understanding of whatever intellectual, moral, etc. itches beset them from time to time. These can be very significant processes and quite important to certain types of humans involved with inquisition - possibly some of the best exercises of human talent and capability. Yet - human and limited by human nature - not capable of explaining/validating/justifying everything in life, and certainly not the Creator. Not by works alone, - - -

A chemical reaction IS information.

Yes, among other important qualities - ruthless - you got it. Whose reason? Human reason, or the reason of the Almighty?

Your subjective experience is not accessible to anyone else.

Reason is determined by information. If the 'Almighty' is said to have given a set of values, and is said to embody this set of values, yet is described acting contrary to the very same set of values....we have a problem, we are presented with a contradiction.

Information seems to be only one of the determinants in human reasoning. You say "We have a problem, we are presented with a contradiction". Who is "we"? For whom is a contradiction a problem, and why?

The OP asked, "Why are you a Christian," DBT. Do you not have the IQ to deduce you werent spoken to?
Oh, I know, you have your freedom, and like a punk with your rights in an inner city school, you gets ta talk all you wants to.

One of the reasons I'm a Christian is because I prefer civilization as opposed to your uncivilized Babylonian babble.

You, by your very nature prove the existence of Lucifer. You're one of the broken spokes in the wheel of civil society.

You butt in where and when you wish, uninvited, as did your hero in the Garden of Eden, seeking to upset the apple cart, probably unaware of yourself being used as a tool, much like stupid, lieberal fools.

It could mean everybody is going to hell - I'll already be up the back laughing at all the christians coming in...

If you had actually noticed, I had made no reply until the thread took the turn it did, after which it makes no difference, the course of the thread was set..

The question is, why are you so sad about it?



Your the one with the punk like bad attitude, trying to make it personal whenever placed under question, whining and moaning at how unfair it all is.

Can't you tolerate questioning of beliefs?

You should welcome it in the spirit of discovery and learning. It should be standard practice.

Hmmm dont know, who's laughing?
Is it one of your favorite story book characters...?

seen lots of empty word blowhard Catholics in my time
- you catholic by any chance?

'We' means us the readers. The text doesn't change. It remains the same for all readers/observers. The problems begin with interpretation. Some try to convert what the text clearly says and clearly means into something it clearly does not say or mean. Why? Because the actual meaning does not suit the needs of the faith of the believer. The believer is not looking at it objectively. The filter of faith screens whatever does not suit.

God put the serpent in the garden for His purpose and made it the wisest most crafty
of beasts to ensure it gets the appointed task done.

Why you constantly complain about all the evil your
God procured is beyond me.

A right royal set up to fail in the full knowledge of what would happen....then blame and punish the two naive innocents for their inevitable failure, a failure planned from the beginning.

Discovery?. Learning?...
But that means giving up primitive superstitions
and the victim status mindset they proudly carry.

Take that away and what are they left with?

Basically we are dealing with Dark Ages tribal
mentalities, who miss the pitchforks & torches
and village mob comradery in going after
witches and heretics.

This applies today as well as it applied 2000 years ago.

Mt 16:4 An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah." So he left them and departed.

I discovered what you are long ago. The snake holds no attraction to me.

You bring up a very good example. Job's battle was not with humans (flesh and blood), but we Christians and believers wrestle with other humans leaving the gate wide open. It is the church organization that teaches us to do so claiming that is God's way. Many of the scriptures teach the very opposite. Division among the ranks is the reason we keep losing the battle. Our lack of knowledge is another reason. It could even be said that our lack of knowledge of God is the biggest reason we stay divided.
Scripture that we should read, research, take to heart, and act upon is: "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

Someone already did answer gave you a direct answer with a simple, "Yes."

The Scripture is quite clear. Jesus is the only way to the Father.

God sends a deluding influence on those who wish to believe a lie.

Only from your flawed human perspective.

Set the whole thing up so He could send His Son to a time and place where asses were wiped with bare hands, there were no antibiotics or indoor plumbing, so that He could suffer for those who hated Him & die a humiliating and excruciating death for sins He did not commit.

Dang God sure pulled one over on us with this Christianity thing.

You have every right to point out how ridiculous our religious claims are. I have no issue with that I’d sooner die than see it otherwise. But please... do so in the context of the whole story.

I just contextualized it. You don’t have to believe the story, but that is the whole story.

God sends a deluding influence one those who wish to believe a lie. Read the book The Case For Miracle.

There is not even a hint of Job being self righteous in the beginning, the middle or the end of the book of Job. God gave him an "A" in both Job 1 and Job 2. You should not add to God's Word.

You see the world through the filter of your faith...consequently what you believe you know and what you say follows like night and day. Nothing surprising.

Is that why two scientists can look at the exact same evidence and come up with opposing interpretations? Both take this same evidence and use it to "prove" their view.

There were choices to be made, but the humans in the garden failed at them all.

Once more, back to the basics.

The Spiritually blind can only perceive darkness, the Light is not in them.

DF

What a fun post to read.

This reminds me of evidence. It does not change. t remains the same for all readers/observers. The problems begin with interpretation. Some try to convert what the evidence clearly shows and say it is something it clearly does not show. Why? Because the actual meaning does not suit the needs of the faith of the believer. The believer is not looking at it objectively. The filter of their brainwashing screens whatever does not suit.

God's Word tells us Jesus was crucified from the foundation of the world. Sin was not an intrusion into God's plan. He created Satan with full knowledge. Perhaps He looked forward to the curse with glee; or perhaps with sadness. We finites cannot know because His way are higher than ours.

We are closer to a being a dirt clod than we are to being like God.

Little kids can be saved by Jesus Christ.

The fact that if you believe and confess with your mouth you are surely saved does not mean that is the only way, it means that is the SURE way.

Jesus Christ can take those to the Father HE deems fit, whether they have heard the word and confessed their sins or not. Those who have heard the good news are the ones who have to choose or reject it.

AS,
Yes, it is by faith that we believe. But you have faith as well - your faith tells you there is no God. Faith is just belief and trust (or assurance). I’m just as sure there is a God as you are sure there isn’t. I’m not trying to convince you, that’s not my responsibility. I’m just saying there is danger ahead. You can proceed at your own risk. Should you continue on, at least you have no one to blame but yourself because it’s your decision alone.

I believe and follow Jesus's teachings.
These posts always bring in the naysayers, it is where they are at but I always sense a distinct lack of peace in their language. Jesus offers a lasting peace to his followers, inexplicable to the doubters, indescribable to many Christian's.
That is up to the individual to investigate, hard selling the teachings doesn't work. , tv evangelizing, pulpit pounding etc does not work , imo.
It is pretty easy to do for yourself , sit on a stump , look at the mountaintops and give thanks.

As the story goes, they were not mentally equipped to make them. It was only after the fact that they understood.

Just as God planned would happen and knew what would happen because it was his set up.

He puts ignorance, intolerance and bigotry on display like a badge of honour. All the while believing himself to be a good Christian, so if not fun, it is kind of amusing.

Your context is false. You fail to take so many things into account that it's ridiculous. I'll just say that this hypothetical, omniscient/omnipotent God could have done a better job of it from the beginning. And please, don't appeal to free will.....you know very well that children cannot make reliable life choices for a reason.....think about it.

It was your context that was off; I was merely asking you to consider your comments from inside the system you criticize just for the sake of intellectual honesty.

Again I have no problem with your questioning and criticizing I don’t take it personally. You do seem rather angry about the assertions of something you consider a fairytale tho?

I’m not a guy to appeal to free will. Your willingness to question an Almighty Transcendent God is an example of where I’d be were it for free will of the autonomous sort most people speak.

Bondage suits me well.

Greeks and Romans in the time the Jesus story is set, did not wipe their ass with bare hands.
and the Romans did have a form of plumbing for their toilets.

It took such pagans to teach dopey jews and christians about better hygiene.

Those tribal folk who recognized what was good had the sense to adopt
the Greek and Roman ways.



the character of JC was far from first or last to suffer terrible punishment for crimes
one did not commit.

So It is in large part a hugely beat up mythical story by religious cult fanatics,
for in such times folks in general would not actually make a lot of fuss about
such an incident, considering all the things that could and did befall people in
such times.

probably be a good idea for christians to actually do some quality indepth reading
on relevant ancient history rather that just relying on disparate, simplistic religious
spin merchant extended parable accounts in Bible.

but i suspect most will out of fear, just stay in their safe space enslavement
to subjective narrative primitive mythology.

or total indifference.

however we do know the Lord gets peronal pleasure out of destroying
as expressed in Deuteronomy 28:63.

Truly you are an arrogant individual. You couldn't create a multi-billion dollar business and live for 200 years and yet you think you can do a better job for all of history. You are special!

I've read that in the Bible, but I find it a bit confusing. I've heard from a lot of Christians that the way they came to believe was by some life changing event that left them convinced that God had spoken to them. Many of them were not seeking at all, and perhaps didn't even want to believe. The Apostle Paul might even fit that description, I don't know. It just seems like that statement doesn't always hold true. It seems like you need to believe in order to understand, but you also need to understand before you can believe, if that makes sense.

Why does Strobel not make mention of catholic miracles
considering they are some of the most documented?

could it be his Evangelical Protestant bias perhaps?




God most certainly deployed the best trickster in the business for the task.

and since his son was pre-destined for sacrfice (before the foundation of the world),
then he couldnt risk Adam/Eve making a different choice, ..so yes, the deck
was stacked.

People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive. - Blaise Pascal

And then they go looking for reasons to substantiate their belief.

This likely applies to one’s ‘rejection of’ the existence of God...as well as one’s ‘belief in’ the existence of God.

Thomas Nagel is a professor at New York University who teaches philosophy and law, and he’s an atheist. And as an atheist he makes an extraordinary confession...he didn’t just come to the conclusion based on the data...he said:

“I ‘want’ atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers.” - Thomas Nagel

“It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, ‘hope’ that I’m right in my belief. I don’t ‘want’ there to be a God; I don’t ‘want’ the universe to be like that.” - Thomas Nagel

There’s clearly a difference between “I *don’t* believe it” and “I don’t *want* to believe it”.

Fun post. Thanks.

I'm not the arrogant one abusing others because they question beliefs and point out problems, in other words, discussing the issues and not attacking an opponent. That is you and your group.

The context was wrong because the context described in genesis tells us that God placed two naive individuals, not having knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong, in the garden with a cunning Serpent in the full knowledge of what would happen....and it was only upon eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil that they knew what they had done.

That clearly is the context because that is the story line.

Atheism is not a belief, it's a lack of conviction based on insufficient evidence to form a conviction.

Just like most people are not convinced in the existence of Zeus or Odin and all the gods that people once believed in.

You are the arrogant one. You're too gutless to start your own thread, "Why are you not Christian", because you are afraid we, who you call arrogant, wouldn't be arrogant asswholes, like you, and we wouldnt show up to crap on your BS and you would thus prove you're a liar and we arent arrogant.

Go ahead. Try it.

There are plenty of unbelievers on the Fire, yet only a few of you arrogant asswholes show your ass on a believers thread.

You're no better than the commie liebs who show up at public forums to prevent event scheduled conservatives from being able to speak.

But it gets worse.

This is the "Original Sin", that could only be washed away by the blood sacrifice, where God comes to the earth as human, to sacrifice himself, to himself, to create a loop hole for the sin he placed upon all human when he tricked them before they possessed the knowledge of good and evil.

That's rich.....considering your continuous uncivilized Babylonian babble:

You are the most uncivilized creature participating in this discussion.

I can agree with this. But, it has to do both ways doesn't it? Some don't want to believe, but some do want to. Definitely some people don't want there to be a God, for whatever reason, but definitely some people do want there to be one, mostly as a hope for afterlife and advantages in this life. I do believe that there are also those who do want to believe and can't, and those who wish they didn't but they do. I just wonder how much of it you really get to decide.

The trouble is that in a nutshell religion has a core of arrogance and leads to bad things (hatred, discrimination etc). Non believers are offended by the arrogance and jump on the religious postings - life is short - don't poo in the pool because god said it'll save your soul

I, and other believers, were asked why we believe. I was invited into this thread. What's your excuse?

Oh, yes, doing the christian thing and enlightening us with the bad news. God bless you. You're so benevolent.

Is this how you are trying to excuse your bad behavior?

Calling a spade a spade? Yeah, leftists say Trump is a meany too.

Tell us about bad behavior and how mean I am while you roast in hell.

Do animals other than humans go to heaven? What about hell?

Why dont you ask God? Oh, He wont answer that for you? I wonder why.

Everything goes to the same place - we die and that's it. Make the most of life, don't waste time on an insurance policy that doesn't exist - you'll be a better person for it.

It is the duty of christians to pull into line fellow church
members like jX who are off the rails...yet the CF christians don't seem the least bit interested or just too cowardly.

Because he doesn't exist?

God, Christ Jesus, not only exits, He lives.

It is good to have a civil discourse on the topic, thank you for the serious replies.

If you believe that, then you should get the clue. You arent a Christian. You're on the wrong thread-again.

I haven’t been arrogant; I hope I haven’t come across as such.

As a matter of fact if there were a few I could share a camp with from the fire here as I have some Antelope Sniper would be toward the top of the list.

The problem with your “context was wrong” comment was that I never even tried to dispute your interpretation of the Genesis narrative. All I did was complete the story showing Gods gracious plan.

Evening CCCC,
I hope you are holding up well against the high NM winter and your crazy state legislature.

As for human vs. supernatural reasoning, we known human reasoning exists, and so far, none of the theist here have prevented sufficient evidence supporting a position regarding the existence of a supernatural being capable of reasoning. Until such time, the only reasoning we know to have at our disposal is the human kind. Sure it's not perfect, but it's the best we have.

Never wasted time.

Not an insurance policy.

I am a better person for believing what I believe both here & in eternity.

All by God’s grace.

You still claimed God made a mistake. That is thinking you know more than The Creator. If you read the rest of the Bible you discover only one was naive.

You are among the most naive people. You think nothing made everything, not realizing nothing is, well, nothing and does nothing.

Yeah, efw, the great AS, who lyingly said God was wrong when HE said Tyre would never rise from the sea again and knowingly tried disingenuously to point out a different city nearby and blasphemed God to try and prove there either is no God or that he was a liar?

I wouldnt mind if he had merely been mistaken, but hes two faced as proven by that incident and others from Christian threads years ago.

I have some atheist friends I hunt and fish with. No deceivers.

Your faith in the unknown is admirable.

If you ever expect to find yourself in the Denver area, let me know.

I'd love to buy you a beer.

FIXT.

That's why our theaving traitorus govt has the US in the shape it's in today, going under, if not for a believer, Trump.

Mouthers "if it feels good do it" luciferian philosophy devoid of morals and patriotic responsibility and submission to the ephemeral flesh is that of the progressive left and of stalin's plan to destroy us.

Nothing in this post in any way represents my personal philosophy.

Why are you atheists so bent out of shape over a “Being” that to you doesn’t exist?

If our God is fictional, why are you and your atheist buds treating Him as real? You’re giving lots of time and attention to malign our very real sovereign God, who to you doesn’t even exist.

Your philosophy is unchristian and contradictory to the principles of or country as founded and of the founders. This country was dedicated to GOD and Christian principles and is the reason it became the greatest nation on the face of the earth as promised ages previously by GOD to Ephrim and Manessah.


For many decades, to serve in govt, leaders had to profess a belief in God.

Get a clue. The inalienable rights given us by our Creator.

And now it's being saved, at least temporarily, by the hand of GOD Almighty by HIS servant Trump, just as King Cyrus saved the tribe of Judah, from Babylon, as prophecied 400 years before in the Bible.

Had your fellow heathen Hillary been elected, we would already be history.

BS she doesnt share your values. The constitution and 2A are small points in comparison to kicking GOD out of school and general principles of a decent nation.

Your philosophy is no better than that of the babble of the fallen Babylonian Empire, Rome, and has been leading us to the same destruction.

Abortion, then post partum abortion. Look around and see what the hell this country has degenerated to.

Queers kissing and marrying and kids having two mommy's and no daddies and a corksucker and commie and lying injun running to ruin the US.

The communist plan, get rid of God and the family and morals and the shining city on the hill is ours.

We dont shine very bright anymore, and it's because we've turned from GOD.

Thanks for doing your part.

Australia doesn't mix politics and religion

How do these untrue beliefs affect the actions of the believers in this world and lead to sub-optimal outcomes?

Perhaps a good cry might make you feel better? Don't forget to get your mummy to dry your face, sweetie.

You really should preach less and listen, and think more.

It's just Jag and couple of others that get hysterical and out of line.

Doc,

On a serious note. Do you have any idea just how unhinged you've become?

Dead serious. You need to walk away from the social media, youtube and everything in your life causing you this unhealthy level of bitterness and angst and seek some professional help.

Mentally, you do not seem to be in a good place right now.

Fair enough....but I would question the idea that it is a gracious plan to set up a naive couple to fail, knowing that they would fail, blaming them for their inadequacy and failure, then punishing not only them but the whole world for it.

How this could be described as gracious is a mystery to me.

Prove they’re untrue. Where’s your evidence?

In His grace He did not kill them and start over. I am sure they would agree.

It's not what I say, the bible tells us that God regretted creating the world, which implies a mistake...just before He is said to have drowned the whole world, guilty and innocent alike.

This New World was dedicated to God by Queen Isabella of Spain and set it on its course of greatness and Christianized it for GOD.,

But GOD had prophesied it ages before in addressing Ephraim and Manessah when HE made a covenant with them that would only be broken by their heirs by turning away from HIM.

One was promised his people would become the largest nation on the earth, that the sun would not set on its shores. Great Britain, contraction of Great Birth Nation (referring to its Tribes of Israel history) would fulfill that prophecy with the British Empire including Australia, China, India, New Zeland.

The other promised his heirs would become the strongest nation on the face of the earth, and promised it would control the gates of its enemies. And we did, from the Halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli, and more.

Liar. I would explain how and why He saved us with that flood, but not to a stone.

Any believers who wish to know may feel free to PM me.
PS, it's pretty well spelled out in the Bible, but your eyes are covered with scales for a reason.

If you ever wish to have them removed, talk to HIM. It's not my business to do.

How about you prove vampires, werewolves, leprechauns, unicorns, pegasi, orcs, trolls, and 12 headed hydra's don't exist?

By your standard, you MUST believe all of these exist until you can PROVE they don't.

This is why in logic, the burden of proof belongs to the party making the positive claim.

You claim some supernatural being exists. Define it, and lets see what you have for evidence.

And I have to imagine that a God as great as EFW contends would have produced a much better plan.

Your defense has a hallow ring. There have been plenty of suboptimal outcomes by atheists who favored a godless universe.

You cleverly focus on the worst in belief in God and cleverly ignore the worst in disbelief of God. Hollow rhetoric.

You are still treating God as real, but your hatred of Him bleeds through your tiring rhetoric.

No, According your bible, he just flooded the entire world, murdering every human, except eight, so in this portrayal, he's not exactly gracious.

Kill them on top of setting them up to fail and laying the blame on them?

The latter is bad enough.

There is no grace to be seen any way you look at it....unless some special definition of 'grace' is being used?

This and more is why the Gnostics relegated the bible god to evil demiurge status

Yer right. Darn. Ifin He had jus Ben near smart as u.

Irrespective of the religious beliefs of the past, god wasn't involved because he doesn't exist.

And I regular speak out against the evils of Mao, Stalin and the Post-Modern Marxist and political left. There is much in their beliefs that's untrue adn prdouces "sub-optimal" outcomes.

Just because someone holds true believes on the subject of the supernatural, that doesn't mean their beliefs are harmless in other aspects.

...

Yep.

It's why Marcion believed Jesus couldn't possibly be an extension of the god of the OT, but was a completely different being.

Please seek help. Your manner of response suggests that there are serious underlying emotional issues. I'm being serious.

Evidence doesn’t make it self-evident. Evidence depends upon interpretation and predisposition of evidence. We have predisposed dispositions that enable us to trust our cognitive abilities as sources of evidence.

Parroting “not enough evidence” is a sham.

You have been given plenty of evidence from the world God created. The world reflects the glory of God. Because of your smug intellectual arrogance, you have chosen to morally suppress that evidence.

“The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them.
For since the creation of the world, His invisible attributes are CLEARLY seen, being understood by the things that are made, even this eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.” Romans 1:18-20

Scripture says there are no real atheists, but atheists say there is no real God.

Quoting the Bible to prove the Bible is called "Circular Reasoning". It's a logical fallacy. Claiming "The world reflect the glory of God", while providing no support for the claim is called a Bald Assertion, another logical fallacy.

Requiring extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims is not a "sham", it's a proper application of practical Skepticism.

Now I ask you again to prove vampires, werewolves, leprechauns, unicorns, pegasi, orcs, trolls, and 12 headed hydra's don't exist.

Quoting Lucifer to prove ....

The thread was about Christian's, not skeptics, dumbass.

Doc,

Nobody here is quoting Lucifer. Are you hearing voices?

Are you off your Thorazine again?

Such a good Christian response.

You are such a good representation of the results of believing in your god.

How many christians have we thrown to the lions by now?

I get a kick when someone asks, "What would happen if we all stopped responding to the trolls?" then these threads go on forever, fighting about something non-believers don't have the tools (the Holy Spirit) to understand. No offense intended to the non-believers, but you simply don't know what you don't know, nor can you until it is revealed to you, through your own earnest desire to know the truth, which you lack.

It's a vicious circle!

Tell us again about the explosion that blew up a bunch of schiett that resulted in monkeys and you.

Can this non-christian make an "appeal to ignorance"? An appeal to faith?

None.

But we have one we are trying to save. It appears he really could use some professional help.

The "Big Bang" was neither big, nor a bang. This argument is an appeal to your personal incredulity, which is another logical fallacy.

Why did god give me nipples? I'm a guy and don't really need them

hmmmm - you said that YOU were laughing. Check your post. Laugh on - you may be laughing alone.

And, you are fishing again with that question. If I were Roman Catholic, it would make no material difference in your case - same old, same old for you.

So you would ask high IQ questions. Yep, you're right. HE wasted them on you.

Your concern should be more about why Christians
feel the need to Bend and mold a God into convenient
versions of their own personal liking.

Thanks for the nice greeting and good wishes, Even with high altitude storms, the worst thing about NM winter weather is the meeting of the legislature.

AS, you posit that reasoning should be employed and that HUMAN reasoning says "convince the person, not torture them" as if those are the only alternatives/behaviors that may be involved/possible in such a matter.. Not at all the case. And, kindly explain, if you will, the reasons the behavior of the Almighty should or would be at all influenced by human reasoning. Could be seen as a ruthless question.

Is the death penalty murder ?