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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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In fact,..American assistance in WW2 created the Soviet Union,..and by extension, Maoist China. Wrong on both counts. Both entities were in existence. Now had you said enabled or ensured their survival, we might have common ground there.. Mao took control of Communist China in 1949. The Soviet Union didn't exist in its cold war form until it claimed territory post WW2.
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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Poland is the best indicator of the allied folly in WW2.
England declared war on Germany due to Germany's invasion of Poland.
The end result,...at the conclusion of WW2 Poland was under the thumb of Soviet Communism.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Timeline is correct. But Mao and his commies had been fighting the japs since the 30s. The USSR's "original states" were under Moscow (Stalin) well before 1939. Too bad we can't prove a negative had the west not aided Russia or the Chinese would they have been able to defeat the krauts and the japs..
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Poland is the best indicator of the allied folly in WW2.
England declared war on Germany due to Germany's invasion of Poland.
The end result,...at the conclusion of WW2 Poland was under the thumb of Soviet Communism. How many million more British and American lives would have been lost if we had tried to roll the USSR back to its prewar borders?
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Joined: Oct 2005
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 79,321 Likes: 2 |
Timeline is correct. But Mao and his commies had been fighting the japs since the 30s. The USSR's "original states" were under Moscow (Stalin) well before 1939. Too bad we can't prove a negative had the west not aided Russia or the Chinese would they have been able to defeat the krauts and the japs.. I seriously doubt if Russia could have handled Germany without the T-34 tank,...which was a copy of an American design which had been rejected by the American military.
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Joined: Jun 2003
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
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Poland is the best indicator of the allied folly in WW2.
England declared war on Germany due to Germany's invasion of Poland.
The end result,...at the conclusion of WW2 Poland was under the thumb of Soviet Communism. This lies SQUARELY at the feet of Roosevelt and Truman. But good luck on extending WWII and trying to keep the Soviets out of Eastern Europe. Besides, according to your views, that's Europe's business and not ours... Can't have it both ways, ace.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 79,321 Likes: 2
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 79,321 Likes: 2 |
Poland is the best indicator of the allied folly in WW2.
England declared war on Germany due to Germany's invasion of Poland.
The end result,...at the conclusion of WW2 Poland was under the thumb of Soviet Communism. This lies SQUARELY at the feet of Roosevelt and Truman. The whole mess lies at the feet of FDR,...from an American perspective. If America had a President that was looking out for American interests at the time, he would have told England that if they wanted to go to war with Germany, they were on their own,......which would have prevented both England's *and* America's involvement in WW2 in Europe.
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Joined: Jun 2003
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 |
Poland is the best indicator of the allied folly in WW2.
England declared war on Germany due to Germany's invasion of Poland.
The end result,...at the conclusion of WW2 Poland was under the thumb of Soviet Communism. This lies SQUARELY at the feet of Roosevelt and Truman. The whole mess lies at the feet of FDR,...from an American perspective. If America had a President that was looking out for American interests at the time, he would have told England that if they wanted to go to war with Germany, they were on their own,......which would have prevented both England's *and* America's involvement in WW2 in Europe. That's a stretch, bordering on the delusional. Need I remind you that shortly after December 7th Germany declared war on the US. And American interests DID include the defeat of Nazi Germany AND Imperial Japan, but I'm sure you disagree.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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Well, the Rhineland issue went against the Versailles Treaty so had the French had any balls, it could have been stopped there. As to Poland, well when you send three Army Groups smashing across another nation's borders, that pretty much nails the "starting a war" concept.
Certainly, but aren't you begging the question a bit? What occurred leading up to the invasion of Poland of which you speak? You seem to entirely disregard the whole Danzig and Corridor affairs, both examples of Polish aggression towards Germans within their jurisdiction. Also, Poland violated Versailles first by refusing to permit the political independence and self governance of Danzig.
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Campfire Tracker
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Timeline is correct. But Mao and his commies had been fighting the japs since the 30s. The USSR's "original states" were under Moscow (Stalin) well before 1939. Too bad we can't prove a negative had the west not aided Russia or the Chinese would they have been able to defeat the krauts and the japs.. I seriously doubt if Russia could have handled Germany without the T-34 tank,...which was a copy of an American design which had been rejected by the American military. Wrong. The T34 had a Christie suspension, but that's it. It was not a copy of an American design.
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Campfire Tracker
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What occurred leading up to the invasion of Poland of which you speak? You seem to entirely disregard the whole Danzig and Corridor affairs, both examples of Polish aggression towards Germans within their jurisdiction. Also, Poland violated Versailles first by refusing to permit the political independence and self governance of Danzig. If you agree with the biased Nazi propaganda...
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Joined: Oct 2005
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 79,321 Likes: 2 |
Timeline is correct. But Mao and his commies had been fighting the japs since the 30s. The USSR's "original states" were under Moscow (Stalin) well before 1939. Too bad we can't prove a negative had the west not aided Russia or the Chinese would they have been able to defeat the krauts and the japs.. I seriously doubt if Russia could have handled Germany without the T-34 tank,...which was a copy of an American design which had been rejected by the American military. Wrong. The T34 had a Christie suspension, but that's it. It was not a copy of an American design. Its suspension was the heart of the T-34.
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Joined: Jun 2002
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
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What occurred leading up to the invasion of Poland of which you speak? You seem to entirely disregard the whole Danzig and Corridor affairs, both examples of Polish aggression towards Germans within their jurisdiction. Also, Poland violated Versailles first by refusing to permit the political independence and self governance of Danzig. If you agree with the biased Nazi propaganda... No serious student of history would disagree with anything I've stated above. Poland made it quite clear that their intention was to annex Danzig, and they were in the process of doing so when Germany invaded to uphold the rights, recognized under Versailles, of the Germans of that city.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Timeline is correct. But Mao and his commies had been fighting the japs since the 30s. The USSR's "original states" were under Moscow (Stalin) well before 1939. Too bad we can't prove a negative had the west not aided Russia or the Chinese would they have been able to defeat the krauts and the japs.. I seriously doubt if Russia could have handled Germany without the T-34 tank,...which was a copy of an American design which had been rejected by the American military. Wrong. The T34 had a Christie suspension, but that's it. It was not a copy of an American design. Its suspension was the heart of the T-34. No, that would be its sloped armor and 76mm gun, which punched through most German armor. The suspension merely allowed it higher cross country speed.
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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Good read: https://www.unz.com/article/collusi...secret-campaign-to-push-the-us-into-war/excerpt: Hitler then launched yet another peace initiative. In a dramatic July 19, 1940, appeal for an end to the conflict, he stressed that his proposal did not in any way harm vital British interests or violate British honor. This offer was also rejected, and Prime Minister Winston Churchill vowed to continue the war.[2]
Privately, though, he and all other high-level British officials knew that their country’s resources were hopelessly inferior to those of Germany and her allies, and that Britain’s only hope for “victory” required somehow bringing the United States into the war. In a one-on-one conversation during this period Randolph Churchill pointedly asked his father just how Britain could possibly beat Germany. “With great intensity,” he later recalled, Winston Churchill replied: “I shall drag the United States in.”
From mid-1940 onwards, bringing the US into war was a priority British government objective. The great problem, though, was that the great majority of Americans wanted to keep their country neutral, and avoid any direct involvement in the European conflict. Millions remembered with bitterness the deceit by which the US had entered the world war of 1914-1918, and the betrayal of the solemn, noble-sounding pledges made during those years by US President Wilson and the leaders of Britain and France.
Roosevelt secretly supported Churchill’s efforts. Even before the outbreak of war in September 1939, the President was already working, behind the scenes, to encourage Britain to make war against Germany, with the goal of “regime change” there.[4] America’s most influential newspapers, magazines and radio commentators shared Roosevelt’s hostile attitude toward Hitler’s Germany, and they supported his campaign for war by putting out stories designed to persuade the public that Germany was a grave danger. Even prior to the outbreak of war in Europe, for example, the country’s most influential illustrated weekly, Life magazine, published a major article headlined “America Gets Ready to Fight Germany, Italy, Japan.” Readers were told that Germany and Italy “covet … the rich resources of South America,” and warned that “fascist fleets and legions may swarm across the Atlantic.”
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,708 Likes: 18 |
Good read: https://www.unz.com/article/collusi...secret-campaign-to-push-the-us-into-war/excerpt: Hitler then launched yet another peace initiative. In a dramatic July 19, 1940, appeal for an end to the conflict, he stressed that his proposal did not in any way harm vital British interests or violate British honor. This offer was also rejected, and Prime Minister Winston Churchill vowed to continue the war.[2]
Privately, though, he and all other high-level British officials knew that their country’s resources were hopelessly inferior to those of Germany and her allies, and that Britain’s only hope for “victory” required somehow bringing the United States into the war. In a one-on-one conversation during this period Randolph Churchill pointedly asked his father just how Britain could possibly beat Germany. “With great intensity,” he later recalled, Winston Churchill replied: “I shall drag the United States in.”
From mid-1940 onwards, bringing the US into war was a priority British government objective. The great problem, though, was that the great majority of Americans wanted to keep their country neutral, and avoid any direct involvement in the European conflict. Millions remembered with bitterness the deceit by which the US had entered the world war of 1914-1918, and the betrayal of the solemn, noble-sounding pledges made during those years by US President Wilson and the leaders of Britain and France.
Roosevelt secretly supported Churchill’s efforts. Even before the outbreak of war in September 1939, the President was already working, behind the scenes, to encourage Britain to make war against Germany, with the goal of “regime change” there.[4] America’s most influential newspapers, magazines and radio commentators shared Roosevelt’s hostile attitude toward Hitler’s Germany, and they supported his campaign for war by putting out stories designed to persuade the public that Germany was a grave danger. Even prior to the outbreak of war in Europe, for example, the country’s most influential illustrated weekly, Life magazine, published a major article headlined “America Gets Ready to Fight Germany, Italy, Japan.” Readers were told that Germany and Italy “covet … the rich resources of South America,” and warned that “fascist fleets and legions may swarm across the Atlantic.”Yes indeed. Long article, but well worth reading.
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 |
Well, the Rhineland issue went against the Versailles Treaty so had the French had any balls, it could have been stopped there. As to Poland, well when you send three Army Groups smashing across another nation's borders, that pretty much nails the "starting a war" concept.
Certainly, but aren't you begging the question a bit? What occurred leading up to the invasion of Poland of which you speak? You seem to entirely disregard the whole Danzig and Corridor affairs, both examples of Polish aggression towards Germans within their jurisdiction. Also, Poland violated Versailles first by refusing to permit the political independence and self governance of Danzig. I didn't forget it NOR did I justify the whole concept of the Corridor, which was clearly a poke in the eye at the Germans for starting WWI (they did you know). I was just addressing what constitutes starting a war. Polish aggression? lol. You must have quite a library of Leni Riefenstahl films..
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 |
Good read: https://www.unz.com/article/collusi...secret-campaign-to-push-the-us-into-war/excerpt: Hitler then launched yet another peace initiative. In a dramatic July 19, 1940, appeal for an end to the conflict, he stressed that his proposal did not in any way harm vital British interests or violate British honor. This offer was also rejected, and Prime Minister Winston Churchill vowed to continue the war.[2]
Privately, though, he and all other high-level British officials knew that their country’s resources were hopelessly inferior to those of Germany and her allies, and that Britain’s only hope for “victory” required somehow bringing the United States into the war. In a one-on-one conversation during this period Randolph Churchill pointedly asked his father just how Britain could possibly beat Germany. “With great intensity,” he later recalled, Winston Churchill replied: “I shall drag the United States in.”
From mid-1940 onwards, bringing the US into war was a priority British government objective. The great problem, though, was that the great majority of Americans wanted to keep their country neutral, and avoid any direct involvement in the European conflict. Millions remembered with bitterness the deceit by which the US had entered the world war of 1914-1918, and the betrayal of the solemn, noble-sounding pledges made during those years by US President Wilson and the leaders of Britain and France.
Roosevelt secretly supported Churchill’s efforts. Even before the outbreak of war in September 1939, the President was already working, behind the scenes, to encourage Britain to make war against Germany, with the goal of “regime change” there.[4] America’s most influential newspapers, magazines and radio commentators shared Roosevelt’s hostile attitude toward Hitler’s Germany, and they supported his campaign for war by putting out stories designed to persuade the public that Germany was a grave danger. Even prior to the outbreak of war in Europe, for example, the country’s most influential illustrated weekly, Life magazine, published a major article headlined “America Gets Ready to Fight Germany, Italy, Japan.” Readers were told that Germany and Italy “covet … the rich resources of South America,” and warned that “fascist fleets and legions may swarm across the Atlantic.”Yes indeed. Long article, but well worth reading. OF COURSE! The Brits needed US to get into the war. It was in THEIR national interests....as well as ours..
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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OF COURSE! The Brits needed US to get into the war. It was in THEIR national interests....as well as ours..
Aligning with the Communists wasn't in America's national interests,.....or Cuba's.
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