Home Forums Reloading Handgun Reloading What happened?

I loaded some 44 special the other evening. After getting the crimp/seating die set the first 2 rounds dropped into the chambers as they should so I commenced to loading without checking. On the ninth round I noticed a bulge in the case. Not much but enough that it was tight in the cylinder. Checking it with calipers it didn't seem to be any longer than the previous eight. I checked the remainder that hadn't been loaded yet and all were within .002 length of each other. The next round was fine then 2 more in a row buckled. Those two would also fit tightly into the chambers. At that point I disassembled the Hornady die and checked and cleaned it but I saw nothing dirty or wrong. After readjustment the remainder of the cartridges loaded just fine. All of the brass was sized and flared with the same settings during the same session.

????

Did you allow for bulge when you measured? I think you will find the cases with the bulge issues will be slightly longer once the bulge is flattened out. Here is a crimping die that will make bulge issues go away.

https://leeprecision.com/reloading-dies/hand-gun-dies/lee-carbide-factory-crimp-die/

Bullets?

Handgun roll crimps rely on where the case mouth is in relation to the crimp shoulder, not the OAL of the round.

Dies that use OAL to index the crimp or using OAL to seat and crimp in one operation might be causing your headaches, especially if your using cast and theyre shaving a bit.

If you get any lead at all in the crimp groove (which is common when seating and crimping in one step), seat and crimp in two separate steps.

I mostly shoot cast through the .44's but these were some 200 grain XTP's that I had laying around. I did try to allow for the buckle when measuring them after the fact. I hadn't thought about it as a length indicator but the crimp was still into the grove on the bullet. If the cases were much longer they would have been above the groove, wouldn't they have? I wish I had taken some pictures before firing them. Thinking I will start crimping as second operation as opposed to seating/crimping in one operation.

I have thought about the Lee Factory Crimp Dies but have heard that they can resize the bullet and all. I mainly shoot cast bullets in the .38, .357 and .44. Does anyone have experience or comments about them?

Thanks.

I mentioned dies that index off of the bullet to crimp; LEE and Hornadys are such afflicted.

Crimping with either without seating isnt a matter of not seating and just using the crimp if the bullet has any contact, which this type of die implements, as the seating sleeve contains both the crimp and seating plug.

Cartridge OAL and overall brass length has a limited window to work in with this type of die. Also consider them useless if 44 bullet diameters exceed much over .430.

LEE dies are junk and Hornady dies for handguns are polished junk.

The LEE FCD for handguns and lead dont fix anything, but create more problems that the original dies cant fix and usually create.

For handguns with multiple bullets and various brass lengths are best navigated at present with RCBS dies, with Reddings second best.

Yes, it would help to see a pic of the affected rounds.

Some considerations to watch for...

You may be over-belling the case.

If so, the subsequent roll crimp may only straighten the mouth of the case, as it is designed to do, leaving the area just below still belled.

If this is what is happening here, the Lee FCD is not the solution...the solution is to not over-bell the case in the first place...even cast bullets need less belling than is commonly applied.

Or...

The seating stem needs to be properly timed with the crimp, if done on the same stroke. If the case is crimped just before the bullet is fully seated, the bullet can put pressure on the case and swell it.

Both situations indicate dies that are not correctly in adjustment.

I seat the bullet and crimp in separate operations, but that is not absolutely necessary. It can be done in one stroke, but the die adjustment and the case length are more critical.

I use Lee, Hornady, Redding and RCBS dies and others, and they all produce ammo without problems when properly set-up, but my dies are much older than current production examples. I sometimes mix and match these to get the result I want, depending on the brass and caliber I am working with.

Redding is, and always has been, top notch...a great company. Lyman is another great company.

Like previously said, a Lee FCD will eliminate bulged cases.
If you try to seat and crimp in the same step bulging is bound to happen, unless you trim your brass to the same length.
I’ve never trimmed handgun brass.

Hawk, I've not used RCBS or Redding handgun dies. How do they differ from Hornady and Lee?

Boogaloo, I don't think I'm over belling the brass. I try to get it just large enough that the bullet will go in maybe 1/8" or so at the full diameter. Is that to much?

As for "timing" the die. My set-up method is to back the die out and seat a bullet to the crimp groove with no crimp. Then I back the seating stem up and adjust the die a little at a time till I get a good looking crimp that will fall into all the cylinders. Once there I run the seating stem back down to the bullet. After that I load a second round and if it looks the same and falls into the cylinders I commence with loading. Is there a different or better method for setting the die to do both in one stroke?

Is there any truth to what I read about the Lee FCD resizing the bullet diameter with lead bullets?

Thanks again all.

Speaking from experience, I'd pitch the Hornady dies and bullets then start over again with RCBS and Speer or Nosler.

The issue I have with the FCD Die is using it to try to fix a problem that was created by some other error made earlier in the loading process. I use Lee FCD dies as bulge busters before I start, but that is for rimless rounds.

Anyway, I would recommend to just try seating and crimping in separate operations and see if that solves your problem.

dave,

First my apologies on your die choice; most would be irritated I questioned their choice of dies. You did not.
My distaste for Hornady and LEE dies is not for lack of experience, I assure you.
LEE and Hornady dies use a fixed sleeve as both the seating AND crimp mechanism. Inside some bullet designs and brass variation, they will work without incident. Beyond their bullet "ideals", they dont.
The problem is that outside those parameters, they flat do not work well compared to an RCBS, Redding or Lyman handgun die. With cast bullets over minimal bullet diameter or a longer than nominal ogive, they flat suck.

The seating stem on these other die brands are separate from the crimp. These dies can have the seating stem totally removed and still crimp a case. A LEE or Hornady will not, at the very least not with success.

The FCDie is a crimping die with a sizing collet. Yes, the sizing collet can squish a perfectly good swaged bullet of .431 diameter or "try" to swage a heat treated .432 diameter bullet with much aggravation.
Sure, there may not be a case buckle, but the idea it fixes the case buckle to the naked eye and wrecks bullet fit is a reality. Slapping the ass to fit with pressure may or may not work.

A bell a large enough to prevent shaving during seating is it.
Seat all bullets to fit inside the crimp groove.
Crimp cast bullets snug without deformation.
Crimp jacketed the same way, but they usually take a bit more forceful crimp.

Hawk, I asked a question wanting to learn, you answered. No apology needed or required. I learned long ago to not get upset over Ford, Chevy, Dodge arguments. Sure, it's fun to argue over such things but in reality they all make good and bad items. Kinda like blond, brunette or redheads. Arguing just gets in the way of learning and having more fun.

Your answer gives me something to consider and to look for/at. I appreciate it. Answers like "Use these, not those" with no explanation of "why" teach you nothing.

Thanks all for your help. I have only been handloading for these straightwall cases for a couple years, if that yet, and somewhere around 3 - 4 thousand rounds total. All my handgunning before that was factory ammo. Have not had a problem till these cases buckled. If the cases had been appreciably longer I would have chalked it up to that and never asked. Since they don't seem to be, I asked.

Thanks again.

Which Lee dies are you talking about? Mine do not work that way.

In the Hornady dies, the seater and crimper are separate pieces, not both a fixed sleeve as you imply.


You've been naysaying those brands for a long time. Seems to me your distaste has gotten in the way of reality. Just my observation.

Dave, could an extra long case have caused the issue? If the die was set for one length and a longer case slipped in, the case might bulge. When I was loading .30-30, I trimmed all cases to a uniform length to get a uniform crimp. Never had to do that with handgun ammo though.

I have a set of fairly current Lee 9mm dies and they don't work as Hawk1 described either.

I prefer Redding, but I picked them up cheap on a impulse buy to see if 9mm was worth reloading and they work fine for the limited amount of 9mm ammo I make.

Yup. The Lee stuff is often a little rough around the edges, but generally is very servicable. Hornady is not top tier either but generally a couple steps up the ladder from Lee.

Neither Lee or Hornady have ever made dies that work as Hawk1 described, as far as I'm aware. Hornady does use a sliding sleeve for bullet alignment (like a cheaper version of Forster's design) but the seater stem is a separate piece.

"I seat the bullet and crimp in separate operations, but that is not absolutely necessary. It can be done in one stroke, but the die adjustment and the case length are more critical."
^^^^
This
Gave up on seat and crimp/taper crimp in one step decades back. Especially with mixed brass for auto's. I mix and match dies a lot to get what I want.
All my Lee dies are at least 25 years old and never used them much anyway, so I can't speak to any of that.
Good luck

Screw the wu flu

My Lee dies were giving me similar problems loading for an older Winchester 94 in 38-55.First thing I did was make a new expander plug to match the oversized cast bullets so I had only .002 smaller in diameter vs the cast bullet and make the expander longer so it expanded the brass the full length from the cannelure to the bullet base.

Then I sent the seating/crimper die back to Lee to have them open up the diameter so the cast bullet would pass thru crimping ring. There was no charge for that. I had to do the same thing for a Marlin in 38-40. I also seat and then take the seating plug out and crimp all rounds. Solved the problem.

Might not be the problem, but I would suggest taking the seating plug out of your Lee die and see if the cast bullet you are using will drop thru the die body. Also check the expander plug to see it if about .002 smaller than your bullets. If it is more than that, there is more of chance of bulging your case because you have lot more neck tension. Lee will make a custom one, but I think they gouge on the price and it still won't be long enough .

Also set up your dies so they are concentric in the press press with your brass/shell holder before you tighten the die body and locking ring down.