Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Weatherby Vanguard Accuracy Repeatability

I totally agree with this.
Also, after doing this, if it doesn't bring the group size down to suit you, try putting a pressure point out at the end of the fore end. I once had a guy bed a rifle for me that would shoot 1/2" 5 shot groups before he did any thing to it and free floated it to boot and it opened up from 1/2-5/8 ish to over 2" groups. Pissed me off to the heigth of pisstivity. Then I got to checking around with various local bench rest gurus and one gave me some papers written by Warren Page on bench rest shooting that suggested a thinner barrel sometimes likes a slight upward pressure out near the end of the fore end. If you think about it many factory rifles come with a pressure point there. I did this and it shrunk the groups back tighter than before. And I'm talking 5 shot groups, not 3. Keep this in mind but just do one thing at a time. Don't do it all at once or you won't know what helps or what screws you up further.

I bought a S2 Sporter .243 in 2014 based on how accurate the S2 Synthetics are that were already in the family. Actually two S2 Synthetics, 07mm-08 and 30-06 and a 30-06 in the previous model Vanguard.

The .243 wouldn’t shoot any ammunition well and several different types were used. I didn’t measure them they were so big. I called Weatherby because there is a guarantee and was told to send it in, which I did. Weatherby called the next week and asked if I had taken the stock off. I had, to clean it and said so. I was informed I’d torqued it too tight and ruined the stock. I informed them I had a torque screwdriver and that was bull. I was then told they would call me back. They called the next day and said a few of their Sporter stocks had wood that wasn’t dense enough and I had obviously received one. They shipped the rifle back with a new stock, rifle wouldn’t shoot. I then did what I should have done from the get go but didn’t think of, swap stocks on the .243 and 07mm-08. The .243 shot great and the 07mm-08 sucked. Called Weatherby and asked for a Synthetic stock and I sent the Sporter stock back. Looks like my experience was the opposite of some of you.

I own 4 S2 Vanguards in 243, 240 Wby, 257 Wby and 6.5-300 Wby. All have been in and out of the factory stocks at 1-2 times for trigger upgrades & cleanings. None have had significant POI changes.

35 inch lbs torques for the action screws applies to the factory plastic and wood stocks. Vanguards with factory B&C fiberglass stocks (including RC models) with aluminum bedding block are torqued to 65 inch lbs.

Unless you have borescoped both rifles you can only guess that the barrels are copper free. I'd start there

I just spoke with Bell and Carlson personnel and they said they recommend "using the rifle manufacturer specifications", which is 35 inch-pounds according to Weatherby. I've thoroughly -- and I mean thoroughly -- cleaned the barrel with several different brands of copper remover, and then had a gunsmith clean it on top of that.

I guess I shouldn't be complaining too much since it is shooting 3/4" groups, its just that I know it is capable of better when there's a pressure point. Of I could go the other way and do a real free-float with pillar bedding and stock glass bedding. At least then I would have consistency and wouldn't have to worry about taking the barreled action out of the stock changing things.

I replaced the ugly synthetic stock on my .300 win Ruger 77 stainless with a laminated stock. I did not finish the inletting but took it a gunsmith and had him glass bed it, pillar bed it and free float the barrel. The only other thing I had done is replaced the trigger spring with a 4 lb. made and sold by some gunsmith. That rifle would shoot near one hole groups at 100 yards after all that. It was extremely accurate before changing stocks but after was amazing.

I guess my point is glass bedding, pillar bedding and free floating the barrel works.

One of the small differences in the Vanguard (Howa) actions that I've noted before can occasionally cause problems if people aren't aware of it.

The Howa/Vanguard action is one of the relatively few designed since World War II that have the front action screw going directly into the recoil lug, instead of behind it. The screw going into the lug was common on pre-WWII actions, especially the influential 98 Mauser, which is probably why so many earlier bolt-actions featured it, including the 1903 Springfield, Arisaka, etc. But the front screw in the lug can result in a bedding problem, which also resulted in one common misconception about bedding bolt rifles, back when epoxy bedding became common.

If the front action screw is REALLY tightened on such actions, it can actually bend the front of the action downward slightly, since the stock support is behind the recoil lug. Since the locking lugs on 2-lug bolt orient vertically when the bolt's closed, this can result in slightly uneven lug contact--and accuracy problems. This is probably why Weatherby advises 35 inch-pounds to tighten the action screws, which isn't all that much considering that 50-80 are often suggested for the front screw on actions with the screw behind the lug.

This is the real reason many people started epoxy-bedding not only the action itself but the rear of the barrel, back when zillions of "war surplus" 98s and 1903s were sold after the war. Bedding the rear of the barrel allowed the front action screw to be tightened hard WITHOUT bending the action--a particular problem with 98s, due to the thumb-slot in the left sidewall.

A lot of people, even today, think that bedding the rear of the barrel helps "support" it, the reason they do it even on actions with the front screw behind the recoil lug--when these do NOT bend the action when tightened hard. The Model 70 was probably the first major commercial action with the screw behind the lug, but Remington used the same placement about a decade later when they introduced the 721/722 bolt-actions, which eventually morphed into the 700.

The front action-screw placement is probably a large part of the reason both the 70 and 700 both acquired such good reputations for accuracy: The barrel on does NOT need any extra bedding support on either action, the reason they both usually shoot very well even with long, heavy free-floated barrels.

Instead, bedding the rear of the barrel on actions like the 98, 1903 and Howa Vanguard supports the ACTION, to keep it from bending slightly when the screws are tightened hard.

Good info on those old A3's. My uncle gave me his 30-06 35 years ago, and it doesn't shoot for squat. I'm going to check these things out on that rifle as I'd like to use it. Thanks.

I still bed the first inch of the barrel, even with M-70's and 700's.

Old habits are hard to break and it doesn't seem to hurt anything.

And, seems to me it sorta works to stiffen the forearm, gives less room for flex. In other words, I get less forearm motion this way than with a full free float. With a high end stock like McM, that's not as big a problem as with B&C. I see more forearm flex, B&C vs. McM. I end up with less gap free floating McM's.

DF

JG,

Find a bud with a bore scope. If the bore is trash, send it to JES, rebore to 338-06.

The one I gave my hunting bud has a '42 vintage barrel that's pristine, shoots MOA or better. Some of those older guns may have had corrosive ammo.

Not sure how many you'll find with a pristine bore.

DF

I had a sako with the screw in the recoil lug that would shoot literally patterns. Mule Deer walked me through bedding it and now it will put just about anything under a moa and I’m far from a great shot

Why would you do anything to a rifle that would shoot 5 shot 1/2 inch groups?

Mr Dirtfarmer........my buddy has a borescope so I took it to him and the barrel is corroded terribly, as you mentioned. I like your JES idea, and I need a stock like that. Where did you get it? Wondering if it would be best to find a compatible 30-06 barrel and swap it out, or rebarrel as you said. I know squat about a 338-06. Thanks buddy.

That's an ancient, vintage Fajen that was on the gun when I bought it cheap at a Shreveport hardware store in the '70's. The barreled action was very poorly inletted. I showed the store mgr just how bad is was, told him I could fix it, but the average customer wouldn't be able to. I think I got it for $125 or so. I redid the bedding; it already had a Timney trigger.

It sat in my safe for decades. My hunting bud was talking about how much he liked Springfields and wanted me to help him find one. Well, I sent this one to David Christman in Delhi, LA, a Guild member and top notch gunsmith. I got him to fit a Jaeger type safety I had picked up on EBay for $14 and install a new handle. The gun ended up with bud's Leupold Vari X III 3-9x40 and last season he killed a bunch of stuff with it. I loaded 130 gr. Hornady hunting (not Varmint) bullets at around 3,100 fps. He had lots of one shot kills, mostly DRT. He likes it so much, he named it Dusty Springfield after the singer. Sorta dates him...

I like light, fast bullets in the '06 for local WT's and hogs. I get good thru and thru penetration with lots of damage, two holes with good blood flow. Don't actually need a blood trail with DRT's, but still nice to have.

338-06 is such a nice round and a perfect upgrade for your Springfield. I think JES charges $250 or so and his guns generally shoot about as well as a new barrel. Replacing the barrel will cost around twice that if you do it right. You could maybe find a take off and get it mounted, but even that would be hard to do for $250. I think a JES rebore will shoot as good if not better than most take off's fitted to your gun.

DF


JG, edited to add this link. Good discussion on the 35 Whelen, 9.3x62 and 338-06. JES can turn your Springfield into any of the three. I've had a 9.3x62 and it's a great round. Never had the Whelen, but those who love it really love it. My pick of the three is the 338-06, but you won't go wrong with any of them.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/14500235/1

Another link https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/14539405 B&C stocks are pretty good for what they cost.

This is a real Loony opportunity....

Now, how often does one come along, dropped in your lap like this???

DF,

My first .338-06 (of three) was a rebore of a Springfield, many years ago, done by a company that is no longer in business. A great round! In fact I still have Elmer Keith's letter about handloads for it, in response to my letter to him through GUNS & AMMO about handloads.

But eventually tried the 9.3x62, which I do believe "works" noticeably better on heavier game with modern handloads--in fact better than the .338 Winchester Magnum that I used a LOT for a while. But whether most North American hunters need one is another question--though of course need has nothing to do with it....

To a Loony, "need" is a four letter word....

But you already knew that...

DF

Good information here John.

I might add that action screws that protrude from the recoil lug on the actions mentioned, should bottom out on the bedding. This is to help prevent the action from deflecting when torqued, as John mentioned.

Actions with actions screws behind the recoil lug should have clearance under the recoil lug. Failure to have clearance can cause the recoil lug to hang up on the bedding and deflect the action when torqued excessively. This can happen just as easily as the latter.

A dial indicator is a good tool to diagnose bedding problems. Indicate on the fore stock while referencing from the barrel. Tighten and loosen action screws and observe. I am not satisfied with the bedding if more than 2 mil of deflection is observed on the dial indicator.

If ones actions/stocks are inducing stress, and there is a forearm pressure point, one has to make a science out of torqueing screws if he wants repeatability after disassembling/reassembling a rifle. Bed the action stress free, and float the barrel. With some of my Weatherby's point of impact drops 6 or 7 inches at 100 yds with removal of forearm pressure.

If one wants to do an assay beg, borrow, buy or steal a bore sighter, install same and without touching it, loosen all screws, check sighter coordinates, retighten screws, and check again. With a well bedded unit, there should be zero movement whether free of the stock or torqued down.

Amen, why dont people get this chidt? Id subscribe to your writing any day of the week. This chit is simple mechanics and totally makes sense. Ive had vanguards that shot lights out after I properly glass bed them. My problem was they didnt extract for chidt. Sent one back to the "authorized weatherby repair center" 3 times before they got it to extract cartridges right. They are a pile o chidt, but you are absolutely correct about neutral bedding them. It works wonders.

This seems like a long involved thread to answer a “change back to your original bullet” to regain accuracy problem.

I bought an original Vanguard in 300 weatherby for $260 on Gun broker delivered as an extra elk gun that wouldn’t break my heart if stolen from the truck. My only request from the seller was a reasonable trigger pull - sadly it was horrible & the gun shot a little over an inch at best. I broke down spent $100 & 10 minutes on a Timney and it clover leafed 180.grain TTSXs. Less than 1/2 the original group size with a 2.5 lb ultra smooth instant break. It is my 1st string elk gun & with aZeiss conquest HD5 Z800 that matches the trajectory perfectly it is a sure thing killer to 600 yards all day.

It is so popular with my hunting group my cousin & son in law both bought S2 300’s & both shoot very well. Future son-in-law wants it on his list when I kick the bucket......so I’m a fan of a trigger swap on the old Vanguard for sure.

Why in the hell you would want to shoot Interbonds is beyond words. Those were the worst shooting bullets I ever put downrange in my 7mm. I almost sent the rifle down the road it shot them so sorry.