|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,066
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,066 |
I hate to post this but please understand, this is IMI M193 ammo out of a basically stock Colt 6720 chrome lined pencil barrel and all. 5 shots standing on my hind legs, 5 shots sitting with one elbow on one knee cause I can't get both elbows anchored and 5 shots prone using a 40 round MagPul mag as a monopod. It's a standard USPSA silhouette tagrget at 200 yards with said EOTech zeroed at 200 yards. This gun Crackheads beware That's not horrid. All on target at 200 yards. I'm guessing the offhand were the low shots?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,245
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,245 |
EO-Tech 556 NV compatible is what all my house guns wear. I have one Eotech 552.A65 NV compatible. I like 'em LD, and what TWR said TRH, both eyes open shooting is king, plus, with a 36 yard zero in 5.56/223, 300 yard steel is also cake. 36 yards zero works out to a 200 yards zero with M193 out of a 20" barrel. When I was in, we used the 25 yard zero, with was close to a 250 yard zero. Yes, I hold at 12 o'clock on 300 yard steel, bullet smacks 12-15 inches low, plenty close enough for crackhead work ; ] gunner, I have never had a problem with mine. They had an offer a couple years ago to send them back for a full refund. I didn't. I paid $347 for it 14 years ago BNIB off ebay. Still running fine. 10-4 LD, same/same here, I talked then refused to send mine in to warranty/refund guy too, never had a problem with any of them, it's not like they're a NightForce scope type aiming device, batt life and reticle clarity for what they are has been fine too.
Trump Won!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,245
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,245 |
Yes, aim those damn scatterguns, my 11 shot 870 12ga has a little glowing green bead looking back at me, 20 pellets of #1 copper plated buck in a 2-3/4ths hull will leave a mark.
Trump Won!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,478
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,478 |
As Clint said, shoot it to see the pattern.
I'm sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo tired of people telling me about shotguns they've never shot for pattern.
And how the little woman doesn't need to shoot it. She'll know what to do in an "emergency" and how it makes a 2 foot hole in people. I have patterned my shotgun at 10 and 20 yds. At 10 yd s with rem. 4 buck the bulk of the pattern in 12" with 2 or 3 pellets 5 to 6" high, and a couple pellets about the same low, hence my number of 2 .5' pattern. Maybe I should have been more specific.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,962
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,962 |
As Clint said, shoot it to see the pattern.
I'm sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo tired of people telling me about shotguns they've never shot for pattern.
And how the little woman doesn't need to shoot it. She'll know what to do in an "emergency" and how it makes a 2 foot hole in people. I have patterned my shotgun at 10 and 20 yds. At 10 yd s with rem. 4 buck the bulk of the pattern in 12" with 2 or 3 pellets 5 to 6" high, and a couple pellets about the same low, hence my number of 2 .5' pattern. Maybe I should have been more specific. At about 25' I get about a 2.5' pattern with 4 buck. 27 pellets. Did you mean to say you get a 30 inch pattern at 25 Yards? How big is your house that you can take 25 yard shots going room to room?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,478
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,478 |
As Clint said, shoot it to see the pattern.
I'm sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo tired of people telling me about shotguns they've never shot for pattern.
And how the little woman doesn't need to shoot it. She'll know what to do in an "emergency" and how it makes a 2 foot hole in people. I have patterned my shotgun at 10 and 20 yds. At 10 yd s with rem. 4 buck the bulk of the pattern in 12" with 2 or 3 pellets 5 to 6" high, and a couple pellets about the same low, hence my number of 2 .5' pattern. Maybe I should have been more specific. At about 25' I get about a 2.5' pattern with 4 buck. 27 pellets. Did you mean to say you get a 30 inch pattern at 25 Yards? How big is your house that you can take 25 yard shots going room to room? Sorry for the typo. Meant 25 yds. The last time I patterned it at 20 yds , the majority of the pattern was in an 18 inch circle, with 2 or 3 pellets about 4" higher, and a couple of pelllets lower. Federal shells at 2 5 yds have a slightly tighter pattern, but not much. Neither shells have flight control wads, that is why the " fliers" I think. From my bedroom door to the front door is 38', which doesn't let the pattern open up alot, but would still be hard on someone in the hallway.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,166
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,166 |
MM, if I remember right, I thought the low shots were from sitting position. I actually didn't go check em till all shots were fired but I told my buddy I was pretty sure I kept dropping off the target from sitting position. Something about getting as comfortable as you can and knowing you're not on target but shooting anyway cause you know it's not gonna get any better...
Prone however was pretty solid when I switched to a 40 round mag for the extra height. Standing was just pressing the trigger as the dot started across the target. I have lot's of work to do.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,066
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,066 |
MM, if I remember right, I thought the low shots were from sitting position. I actually didn't go check em till all shots were fired but I told my buddy I was pretty sure I kept dropping off the target from sitting position. Something about getting as comfortable as you can and knowing you're not on target but shooting anyway cause you know it's not gonna get any better...
Prone however was pretty solid when I switched to a 40 round mag for the extra height. Standing was just pressing the trigger as the dot started across the target. I have lot's of work to do. I hear ya. Offhand at 200 yards was always where I dropped most points on the USMC rifle requal range, where distances were 200, 300, and 500 yards. Just like you, I would try to let the round fly as the front sight was crossing the black of the target.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,381
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,381 |
If your wife or child is being used as a shield and all you can see is the BGs head they may appreciate your being able to keep all shots w/in 6" at any distance available in your house. We don't get to dictate the circumstances. Just a thought to confuse the issue, standards exist for a reason.
mike r
Don't wish it were easier Wish you were better
Stab them in the taint, you can't put a tourniquet on that. Craig Douglas ECQC
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 14,693
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 14,693 |
MM, if I remember right, I thought the low shots were from sitting position. I actually didn't go check em till all shots were fired but I told my buddy I was pretty sure I kept dropping off the target from sitting position. Something about getting as comfortable as you can and knowing you're not on target but shooting anyway cause you know it's not gonna get any better...
Prone however was pretty solid when I switched to a 40 round mag for the extra height. Standing was just pressing the trigger as the dot started across the target. I have lot's of work to do. LOL! Copy that! Those light little guns are harder to hit with, no doubt about it.
Politics is War by Other Means
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,305
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,305 |
A pattern out of a modified choke at 10' to 30 or 40' with 4 buck ( or bb s) leaves a little more room for error and still let's the shooter be successful in a high stress situation. A shot down the hallway will likely clear it. At about 25' I get about a 2.5' pattern with 4 buck. 27 pellets. I wonder if some people are so familiar with an AR that they might be able to hit with it in a high stress situation? I wonder if an AR set up with a red dot and a flashlight might be very fast in target acquisition and firing a round? I guess if a man uses his shotgun more than his AR he should use a shotgun, and vice versa. Only thing I tend to forget is the round is going to land about 3.5 inches low at 10 feet.
Last edited by jimmyp; 03/31/20.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,245
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,245 |
Yessir widows peak hold with a dot up close.
Trump Won!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,478
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,478 |
A pattern out of a modified choke at 10' to 30 or 40' with 4 buck ( or bb s) leaves a little more room for error and still let's the shooter be successful in a high stress situation. A shot down the hallway will likely clear it. At about 25' I get about a 2.5' pattern with 4 buck. 27 pellets. I wonder if some people are so familiar with an AR that they might be able to hit with it in a high stress situation? I wonder if an AR set up with a red dot and a flashlight might be very fast in target acquisition and firing a round? I guess if a man uses his shotgun more than his AR he should use a shotgun, and vice versa. Only thing I tend to forget is the round is going to land about 3.5 inches low at 10 feet. I don't think there is a wrong answer here. You just need to be proficient with what you choose to use.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,381
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,381 |
A pattern out of a modified choke at 10' to 30 or 40' with 4 buck ( or bb s) leaves a little more room for error and still let's the shooter be successful in a high stress situation. A shot down the hallway will likely clear it. At about 25' I get about a 2.5' pattern with 4 buck. 27 pellets. I wonder if some people are so familiar with an AR that they might be able to hit with it in a high stress situation? I wonder if an AR set up with a red dot and a flashlight might be very fast in target acquisition and firing a round? I guess if a man uses his shotgun more than his AR he should use a shotgun, and vice versa. Only thing I tend to forget is the round is going to land about 3.5 inches low at 10 feet. I don't think there is a wrong answer here. You just need to be proficient with what you choose to use. That is the real world bottom line. Many new/casual users don't understand shotgun patterns or offset w/ a red dot sight. Watching guys w/ ARs shooting the crap out of barricades in classes is a good lesson. This stuff isn't rocket science but actually proving it through practice is the only answer. mike r
Don't wish it were easier Wish you were better
Stab them in the taint, you can't put a tourniquet on that. Craig Douglas ECQC
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,479
Campfire Kahuna
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,479 |
25 feet my pattern with buckshot is about like an 8 inch paper plate. If it was almost 3 feet wide it could be a useful swarm.
What ammo( I know 4 buck) and what choke to get that wide a pattern at 8 steps. Heck the wads are dang near still with the shot at that range.
And at 10 feet, if you hit 3 inches low and don't kill, you have other problems.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653 |
This thread demonstrates everything I hate about shotguns.
First, we hear that a shotgun will "clear a hall". Well, at my house the hall is about 36" wide. Then we hear the shotgun pattern is actually 12" wide. That doesn't clear a hall. That doesn't even clear half a hall. That clears 2/3 of 1/2 of a hall.
So, you've gotta aim. And "not aiming" is the big benefit that everyone raves about with shotguns. Because they don't know what they're talking about.
If I'm gonna aim, I'm gonna aim the gun that's lighter, that's faster to shoot for follow up shots, that holds more ammunition, and that does all of that with nearly no recoil.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,245
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,245 |
Yes, aim those damn scatterguns, my 11 shot 870 12ga has a little glowing green bead looking back at me, 20 pellets of #1 copper plated buck in a 2-3/4ths hull will leave a mark. Realizing fully this in an AR forum, but, this thread and a few posts therein caused me to go grab a cardboard box and my 12ga 870 house gun, I stepped off the absolute longest ranges I could take inside the house, one was 18 yards, the other 22 yards, so I split the difference and set the box at 20 yards. The pattern from one shot of Winchester X12C1B put all 20 of the hardened copper plated #1 buckshot pellets in about a 10x12 inch pattern on the box, I have the modified choke tube in the shotgun for #1 buck, so damn right, we need to aim those shotguns too, a fun little back porch session this morning. Hope some here can find the info useful.
Trump Won!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,617
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,617 |
FWIW, those round shotgun pellets deflect and ricochet a HELLUVA lot more than rifle and even handgun rounds, inside structures. Nothing ‘wrong’ with a shotgun in CQ, but it takes at least as much consideration and training to be effective as any other choice....not necessarily less.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,174
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,174 |
Each buckshot pellet shares a reduced portion of the entire load's energy. Rapid energy loss occurs through ejecta and poor coefficients. Stopping power is a legitimate concern, as multiple pellet hits IS a requirement to achieve fast stops. Aim is a must, and there must be control of the entire payload through proper choke/load combination. Testing.
Sectional density and available energy of a soft lead round ball/plated shot compared to a well designed rifle bullet, big differences. Dependable, powerful results on target. Rifle.
Inside the house, I want the fight stopped as fast as possible.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 489
Campfire Member
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 489 |
We used #4 buckshot in our shotguns at the embassies. Patterns were roughly 1" per yard. 10" at 10 yards, 15" at 15 yards, etc. 870's with cylinder bores.
The new Flite-Control and Versa-Tite wads are a game changer. Definitely needs to be patterned so you know what you are working with.
My cylinder bore 870 with the Hornady Critical Defense 00 Buck (8 pellets 1600 fps) patterns about 6" at 20 yards. That's with the Versa-Tite wad, same thing as Flite-Control I believe. Exactly. 1" per yard, or 5 inches at 5 yards. Average size room in a house is 5-10 yards, i.e. 15-30 feet. Pattern is only 10" wide at 30 feet. Easy to miss if you are not aiming or proficient. May as well have a pistol with a MWL. Street sweepers are a complete misnomer inside a house.
|
|
|
|
595 members (160user, 17CalFan, 007FJ, 12344mag, 1337Fungi, 10gaugemag, 69 invisible),
2,456
guests, and
1,200
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,191,778
Posts18,477,015
Members73,942
|
Most Online11,491 Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|