|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 23,545 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 23,545 Likes: 1 |
I bought a 18 year old riveted boat 2 years ago. My first tipoff should have been when he told me how good of a bilge pump it had........
I get the privilege of stripping it down and beating the schit out of with a ball peen hammer next when I get the time.
Last edited by KFWA; 04/03/20.
have you paid your dues, can you moan the blues, can you bend them guitar strings
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,761
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,761 |
Pretty good videos, Craig was/is a good promoter... He sold Phantom sport Jons and things changed, story is the owner of Bucher glass was in china dealing with a fbricator for some extrusions and there were these boat hulls laying around.. Next thing ya know they are importing the hulls and SX is born... They are not my thing, although they offer a lot of performance in a light package...
I liked the Sports Jon but just couldn't justify the money they wanted for my needs, not that they weren't worth the price. We just fab up our own Jet Sleds........... ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/0SVv49e.jpg) ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/iTRLGLL.jpg) ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/vB8BPcx.jpg) Nicely done ...👍.... 100 thou aluminum?
Last edited by johnn; 04/03/20.
For those without thumbs, it's s Garden fookin Island, not Hawaii
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,761
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,761 |
Following this
Keep in-mind not all welded boats are created equal
The blanket statement welded better is not really true I can be, but not always
Hank There's welding, and then there's welding. More importantly, there's Aluminum, and then there's Aluminum. Aluminum alloys come in various grades. Some hard, some soft, some brittle, some ductile. Just as an example, the first boat I bought to take the G-kids fishing in was a little 14 foot Shasta with an 18 hp Merc. When I started drilling holes in the hull to mount rod holders and such, the Aluminum cut like butter. When we took the boat out on Brownlee Res and the wind came up in the morning at sunrise, the floor would visibly flex with impact of every wave. Within a half dozen outings, the floor had cracked at each flex point and water was coming in. Brownlee is the first dam at the head of Hells Canyon. The lake averages maybe 1/4 to 1/2 mile across. But it is about 40 miles long. Each morning at Sunrise the breeze kicks up and produces six to eight inch chop. We fished from the Shasta for two years, and periodically hit the switch on the bilge pump to remove the water. Then I bought a 16 foot Lund hull. I built a console into it and put my little Merc 18 on it. Drilling holes in the Lund was night and day difference from the Shasta. The wall thickness was very similar, but the Aluminum in the Lund was much harder. In the same lake, under the same conditions, there was no flex in the Lund hull. You will find the same to be true of welded boats. Some are constructed of superior, expensive Aluminum alloys. Some are made of less expensive alloys, and are more prone to stress cracks or heat damage along weld lines. Most of the better built boats will tout their alloys in their advertising copy. It pays to become familiar with the alloys, or at least know how examples of the boat model has performed for others before investing a large sum of hard earned money. Or to sum it up, welds can crack and leak too. Proper alloy selection combined with correct welding process can give some incredibly durable metal joints. HAZ in the weld joint can be reduced through lazer or cold metal pulsed welding, but base metal thickness is limited to around .100 IIRC. Most fab shops won't be set up for these welding processes and I'd guess that most of the semi custom boats rely on heavier section metal and a spool gun. I'd wager that .100 of 5083 alloy, welded with a low HAZ process would suffice for almost any use that didn't involve regular violent contact or extreme abrasion. If I were going to boat in extreme conditions, I'd feel better about heavier section metal and archaic welding process. Repair as needed. If one could only predict violent contact with a rock or something..... LAFFIN...am I the only one that eats MRES....?
Last edited by johnn; 04/03/20.
For those without thumbs, it's s Garden fookin Island, not Hawaii
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,761
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,761 |
In 24 years of ocean service, crabbing in December also, my old riveted Starcraft has never had a loose rivet. The Pacific Coast north of Cape Mendocino and south of Coos Head is not very pacific. The access to open ocean is over bars. The Rogue River bar at Gold Beach is legendary. The Starcrafts are the proven boats, I believe of the Walleye fisherman on the Great Lakes which I believe blows up as steep and quick as any water in North America. The technology of tig welding has improved over the years, but I am not aware of any welded aircraft, I personally have ridden tens of thousands of miles in Alaska and the Aleutians in my company's DC-3, it was 50 years old when they bought it. Finally. Someone gets it. Tip of the hat sir... Wrong The reason for a riveted hull over a welded comes down to weight. If you want or need a light boat you go with a riveted hull, if weight isn't a factor and you want less worries you go welded. Edit: Second reason for a lot of people is price. A riveted hull is cheaper in general terms. Aircraft structures are not welded because of load distribution. A weld the load is all in one place directly on the weld. A riveted (to include all fastener types) structure transfers the load to the entire structure. Seams are overlapped and in most cases terminate at a Bulkhead, Longerons, strings, stiffeners, and other heavy aircraft fittings. Show me a cargo ship that isn't welded! All fasteners loosen over time from both load and temperature changes. Boat hull rivets absolutely loosen and leak! You got that 1/2 right, does that make yu 1/2 wrong?
For those without thumbs, it's s Garden fookin Island, not Hawaii
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 13,354
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 13,354 |
In 24 years of ocean service, crabbing in December also, my old riveted Starcraft has never had a loose rivet. The Pacific Coast north of Cape Mendocino and south of Coos Head is not very pacific. The access to open ocean is over bars. The Rogue River bar at Gold Beach is legendary. The Starcrafts are the proven boats, I believe of the Walleye fisherman on the Great Lakes which I believe blows up as steep and quick as any water in North America. The technology of tig welding has improved over the years, but I am not aware of any welded aircraft, I personally have ridden tens of thousands of miles in Alaska and the Aleutians in my company's DC-3, it was 50 years old when they bought it. Finally. Someone gets it. Tip of the hat sir... Wrong The reason for a riveted hull over a welded comes down to weight. If you want or need a light boat you go with a riveted hull, if weight isn't a factor and you want less worries you go welded. Edit: Second reason for a lot of people is price. A riveted hull is cheaper in general terms. Aircraft structures are not welded because of load distribution. A weld the load is all in one place directly on the weld. A riveted (to include all fastener types) structure transfers the load to the entire structure. Seams are overlapped and in most cases terminate at a Bulkhead, Longerons, strings, stiffeners, and other heavy aircraft fittings. Show me a cargo ship that isn't welded! All fasteners loosen over time from both load and temperature changes. Boat hull rivets absolutely loosen and leak! You got that 1/2 right, does that make yu 1/2 wrong? It is 100% right. I could have given more details as to other reasons fasteners are used over welds but really no need to. But yes I did leave out that welds add a lot of weight to the aircraft. A normal rivet pitch of AD rivets weights a fraction of a weld. Even Hi-Loks weight less than a weld would. Fasteners are removable and replaceable. Though most do not properly replace working rivets. Some will try to buck them more, others will remove and replace with the same nominal size. When they should be going one over, so a repair rivet is the proper way to go about it. Unless of course the hole is a full size or close enough to step up to the next nominal. Another factor is in some places shear or Tension fasteners are required. But that is getting way into things. Bottom line is a welded Aluminum Hull is a better route unless weight is a deciding factor.
Last edited by MontanaCreekHunter; 04/03/20.
Eat Fish, Wear Grundens, Drink Alaskan.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,761
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,761 |
In 24 years of ocean service, crabbing in December also, my old riveted Starcraft has never had a loose rivet. The Pacific Coast north of Cape Mendocino and south of Coos Head is not very pacific. The access to open ocean is over bars. The Rogue River bar at Gold Beach is legendary. The Starcrafts are the proven boats, I believe of the Walleye fisherman on the Great Lakes which I believe blows up as steep and quick as any water in North America. The technology of tig welding has improved over the years, but I am not aware of any welded aircraft, I personally have ridden tens of thousands of miles in Alaska and the Aleutians in my company's DC-3, it was 50 years old when they bought it. Finally. Someone gets it. Tip of the hat sir... Wrong The reason for a riveted hull over a welded comes down to weight. If you want or need a light boat you go with a riveted hull, if weight isn't a factor and you want less worries you go welded. Edit: Second reason for a lot of people is price. A riveted hull is cheaper in general terms. Aircraft structures are not welded because of load distribution. A weld the load is all in one place directly on the weld. A riveted (to include all fastener types) structure transfers the load to the entire structure. Seams are overlapped and in most cases terminate at a Bulkhead, Longerons, strings, stiffeners, and other heavy aircraft fittings. Show me a cargo ship that isn't welded! All fasteners loosen over time from both load and temperature changes. Boat hull rivets absolutely loosen and leak! You got that 1/2 right, does that make yu 1/2 wrong? It is 100% right. I could have given more details as to other reasons fasteners are used over welds but really no need to. But yes I did leave out that welds add a lot of weight to the aircraft. A normal rivet pitch of AD rivets weights a fraction of a weld. Even Hi-Loks weight less than a weld would. Fasteners are removable and replaceable. Though most do not properly replace working rivets. Some will try to buck them more, others will remove and replace with the same nominal size. When they should be going one over, so a repair rivet is the proper way to go about it. Unless of course the hole is a full size or close enough to step up to the next nominal. Another factor is in some places shear or Tension fasteners are required. But that is getting way into things. Bottom line is a welded Aluminum Hull is a better route unless weight is a deciding factor. The edit helped, good for you, not all fasteners loosen, not all riveted boats will leak, welded is great but besides weight price is a factor, glad i could clear this up for you
For those without thumbs, it's s Garden fookin Island, not Hawaii
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,808
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,808 |
I see the Midwest boats with steering wheels with only 40 HP outboards. Most of hardcore Fishing friends use tiller handles all the way up to 300 HP. ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/dtTCVjC4/warrior-250-sho.jpg) Are you using the hydraulic assist on the bigger motors. I can let go of the tiller handle on my 90 and it will track straight. My buddy put the assist on his 150.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 7,512 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 7,512 Likes: 1 |
I've wanted an all-welded boat, Crestliner, Alumacraft, etc. They are apparently better consturcted than my Lund, but in reality my boat has been as solid and leak-free as anything out there. For what I paid and the performance, I'm happy to hang on to the boat I have for the foreseeable future. ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/44KuJh6.jpg)
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 422
Campfire Member
|
Campfire Member
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 422 |
Depends on how many rivets you use and where you put them.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,681 Likes: 4
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,681 Likes: 4 |
I remember my Dad yelling while I was driving one of his many old Lonestar boats, "to slow down, your going to beat the rivets out of the boat ! "
Last edited by 1911a1; 04/04/20.
Figures don't lie, But Liars figure Assumption is the mother of mistakes
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 26,563 Likes: 17
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 26,563 Likes: 17 |
Airplanes, and semi trailers are riveted. They aren't designed to float. I beg your pardon.....:-) ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/zZXRqt7.jpg) Wow, I learn something new every day. Riveted pontoons.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 13,354
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 13,354 |
In 24 years of ocean service, crabbing in December also, my old riveted Starcraft has never had a loose rivet. The Pacific Coast north of Cape Mendocino and south of Coos Head is not very pacific. The access to open ocean is over bars. The Rogue River bar at Gold Beach is legendary. The Starcrafts are the proven boats, I believe of the Walleye fisherman on the Great Lakes which I believe blows up as steep and quick as any water in North America. The technology of tig welding has improved over the years, but I am not aware of any welded aircraft, I personally have ridden tens of thousands of miles in Alaska and the Aleutians in my company's DC-3, it was 50 years old when they bought it. Finally. Someone gets it. Tip of the hat sir... Wrong The reason for a riveted hull over a welded comes down to weight. If you want or need a light boat you go with a riveted hull, if weight isn't a factor and you want less worries you go welded. Edit: Second reason for a lot of people is price. A riveted hull is cheaper in general terms. Aircraft structures are not welded because of load distribution. A weld the load is all in one place directly on the weld. A riveted (to include all fastener types) structure transfers the load to the entire structure. Seams are overlapped and in most cases terminate at a Bulkhead, Longerons, strings, stiffeners, and other heavy aircraft fittings. Show me a cargo ship that isn't welded! All fasteners loosen over time from both load and temperature changes. Boat hull rivets absolutely loosen and leak! You got that 1/2 right, does that make yu 1/2 wrong? It is 100% right. I could have given more details as to other reasons fasteners are used over welds but really no need to. But yes I did leave out that welds add a lot of weight to the aircraft. A normal rivet pitch of AD rivets weights a fraction of a weld. Even Hi-Loks weight less than a weld would. Fasteners are removable and replaceable. Though most do not properly replace working rivets. Some will try to buck them more, others will remove and replace with the same nominal size. When they should be going one over, so a repair rivet is the proper way to go about it. Unless of course the hole is a full size or close enough to step up to the next nominal. Another factor is in some places shear or Tension fasteners are required. But that is getting way into things. Bottom line is a welded Aluminum Hull is a better route unless weight is a deciding factor. The edit helped, good for you, not all fasteners loosen, not all riveted boats will leak, welded is great but besides weight price is a factor, glad i could clear this up for you You might want to reread what I wrote as I said " A riveted hull is cheaper in general terms." Yes all fasteners will loosen and or work given the time and loads being applied. I have seen them all and replaced them all. From DD's, E, Hucks, Hi-Loks, you name it they will work over time. Yes all riveted hulls will leak. Metal expands and contracts with temperature period! That will create enough to allow water to seep. You cleared nothing up. Welded Hull Trumps Riveted Hull in everything except weight and price.
Eat Fish, Wear Grundens, Drink Alaskan.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,761
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,761 |
In 24 years of ocean service, crabbing in December also, my old riveted Starcraft has never had a loose rivet. The Pacific Coast north of Cape Mendocino and south of Coos Head is not very pacific. The access to open ocean is over bars. The Rogue River bar at Gold Beach is legendary. The Starcrafts are the proven boats, I believe of the Walleye fisherman on the Great Lakes which I believe blows up as steep and quick as any water in North America. The technology of tig welding has improved over the years, but I am not aware of any welded aircraft, I personally have ridden tens of thousands of miles in Alaska and the Aleutians in my company's DC-3, it was 50 years old when they bought it. Finally. Someone gets it. Tip of the hat sir... Wrong The reason for a riveted hull over a welded comes down to weight. If you want or need a light boat you go with a riveted hull, if weight isn't a factor and you want less worries you go welded. Edit: Second reason for a lot of people is price. A riveted hull is cheaper in general terms. Aircraft structures are not welded because of load distribution. A weld the load is all in one place directly on the weld. A riveted (to include all fastener types) structure transfers the load to the entire structure. Seams are overlapped and in most cases terminate at a Bulkhead, Longerons, strings, stiffeners, and other heavy aircraft fittings. Show me a cargo ship that isn't welded! All fasteners loosen over time from both load and temperature changes. Boat hull rivets absolutely loosen and leak! You got that 1/2 right, does that make yu 1/2 wrong? It is 100% right. I could have given more details as to other reasons fasteners are used over welds but really no need to. But yes I did leave out that welds add a lot of weight to the aircraft. A normal rivet pitch of AD rivets weights a fraction of a weld. Even Hi-Loks weight less than a weld would. Fasteners are removable and replaceable. Though most do not properly replace working rivets. Some will try to buck them more, others will remove and replace with the same nominal size. When they should be going one over, so a repair rivet is the proper way to go about it. Unless of course the hole is a full size or close enough to step up to the next nominal. Another factor is in some places shear or Tension fasteners are required. But that is getting way into things. Bottom line is a welded Aluminum Hull is a better route unless weight is a deciding factor. The edit helped, good for you, not all fasteners loosen, not all riveted boats will leak, welded is great but besides weight price is a factor, glad i could clear this up for you You might want to reread what I wrote as I said " A riveted hull is cheaper in general terms." Yes all fasteners will loosen and or work given the time and loads being applied. I have seen them all and replaced them all. From DD's, E, Hucks, Hi-Loks, you name it they will work over time. Yes all riveted hulls will leak. Metal expands and contracts with temperature period! That will create enough to allow water to seep. You cleared nothing up. Welded Hull Trumps Riveted Hull in everything except weight and price. Weight and price, finally we can agree.... fyi... i have a handful of fasteners i have had to cut off, never gonna loosen, ever. Don't suppose you've seen any of them ever... Leaky riveted boat's... all of them... oh my gawd, whats this world coming to? Metal expanding and contracting. rivets expanding & contracting... and glory be all at different rates...! Amazing chit, yer pretty funny guy, good imagination anyway...!
For those without thumbs, it's s Garden fookin Island, not Hawaii
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 5,651
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 5,651 |
This has been entertaining! Especially when everybody know, the only thing that matters, is keeping water out of the people hole. It's each one own choice! Im out of popcorn,...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 15,378
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 15,378 |
If your rivets don't leak ...you are not useing your boat to it's full potential...if your welded boat leaks ...good job ...learn more driving skills and work your way up to a MAN .
I work harder than a ugly stripper....
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 15,378
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 15,378 |
U leaky rivet guys ...get the kid under the boat with the hammer side of a splitting maul ...I YOU get up top wit ballpeen...... tap tap..move tap tap ....good for another trip !
I work harder than a ugly stripper....
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 4,874
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 4,874 |
Following this
Keep in-mind not all welded boats are created equal
The blanket statement welded better is not really true I can be, but not always
Hank My friend had structural problems with his welded jet boat. Not just the skin. If he kept using it, it might have literally broke in half. He doesn't slow down in rough water, so his boat takes a beating. He hauled it back to the manufacturer to get repaired. Then again, after the first repair failed. And he thought it was the toughest welded boat made, after countless hours of research, talking to local guides, users, etc. before buying it. He also took the boat to a local repair shop that fixes all the major brands. He said he learned a lot, and the gist was that there were a wide variety of brands in the shop getting repairs. They all had issues, if used hard. And the shop told him what was wrong with his boat. It was a structural design issue by the manufacturer. And they said the OEM repair wouldn't work, but he took it back to the manufacturer to retain his warranty. And the repair failed, as predicted. I know others, with different brands of welded boats needing repair. Makes me wonder how much bro-science or redneck logic goes into the design vs. structural and material engineering, for these consumer grade boats. Seems like the end-users do the final testing. Another friend runs a charter in AK. He says that he fully expects a welded boat to fail, which will require repairs. He told me to go by the number of hours on the hull (for a used boat), and ability/access/suitability for repair. In his experience, they will all crack, if used long enough.
Last edited by 4th_point; 04/04/20.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 13,354
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 13,354 |
Following this
Keep in-mind not all welded boats are created equal
The blanket statement welded better is not really true I can be, but not always
Hank My friend had structural problems with his welded jet boat. Not just the skin. If he kept using it, it might have literally broke in half. He doesn't slow down in rough water, so his boat takes a beating. He hauled it back to the manufacturer to get repaired. Then again, after the first repair failed. And he thought it was the toughest welded boat made, after countless hours of research, talking to local guides, users, etc. before buying it. He also took the boat to a local repair shop that fixes all the major brands. He said he learned a lot, and the gist was that there were a wide variety of brands in the shop getting repairs. They all had issues, if used hard. And the shop told him what was wrong with his boat. It was a structural design issue by the manufacturer. And they said the OEM repair wouldn't work, but he took it back to the manufacturer to retain his warranty. And the repair failed, as predicted. I know others, with different brands of welded boats needing repair. Makes me wonder how much bro-science or redneck logic goes into the design vs. structural and material engineering, for these consumer grade boats. Seems like the end-users do the final testing. Another friend runs a charter in AK. He says that he fully expects a welded boat to fail, which will require repairs. He told me to go by the number of hours on the hull (for a used boat), and ability/access/suitability for repair. In his experience, they will all crack, if used long enough. Everything can fail and will fail given enough time and hard use.
Eat Fish, Wear Grundens, Drink Alaskan.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 4,874
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 4,874 |
Everything can fail and will fail given enough time and hard use.
I worked as a test engineer in a group with applied mechanics engineers and stress analysis engineers for a global machine manufacturer. Even with advanced FEA, and physical stress testing, we'd still have failures in the field. I can't imagine some of these small, consumer grade, boat manufacturers having the same amount of resources to do this level of virtual and physical testing. They may not even fully understand the load cases. At least that was my assumption, after hearing about all the welded boat failures from friends and co-workers.
Last edited by 4th_point; 04/04/20.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,599 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,599 Likes: 1 |
Everything can fail and will fail given enough time and hard use.
I worked as a test engineer in a group with applied mechanics engineers and stress analysis engineers for a global machine manufacturer. Even with advanced FEA, and physical stress testing, we'd still have failures in the field. I can't imagine some of these small, consumer grade, boat manufacturers having the same amount of resources to do this level of virtual and physical testing. They may not even fully understand the load cases. At least that was my assumption, after hearing about all the welded boat failures from friends and co-workers. Failures from Which boat company? Have you seen some of the new welded boat frame/structure? Boats like north river, weldcraft, thunder jet, boulton, river wild, etc... which one would you recommend? If they don’t have the resources, maybe help them ?
Last edited by Dre; 04/04/20.
All of them do something better than the 30-06, but none of them do everything as well.
|
|
|
|
606 members (160user, 1936M71, 10gaugemag, 10ring1, 12344mag, 007FJ, 71 invisible),
2,839
guests, and
1,362
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,192,234
Posts18,485,703
Members73,966
|
Most Online11,491 Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|