Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Point of Impact Shifting

Hi all. I'm new here. I've been a long time lurker but this is my first post. I'm from MN. Just started hunting deer last year and bought my first centerfire rifle about 6 months ago. It's a Winchester M70 Featherweight with a stainless barrel chambered in .308. I did a bedding job on it by following a guide by GunBlue490 on youtube because I was getting decent groups with several types of ammo, but not great (nothing sub MOA). The bedding job went well as far as I could tell. I work with epoxies professionally, so I felt confident that I could do the work in a competent manner, and the results look great.

My issue now, though, is that I'm experiencing strange groups at the range, where I'll put two shots very close together and the third will be 2-3 inches away. I have several groups where that "flyer" is in the same direction about the same distance, but sometimes it goes back and forth, 2 here and 2 there, but there is a definite disconnect between what I'm seeing in the scope and what I'm seeing on the target. I'm a lifelong shooter and I have pretty solid trigger control, and I've shot enough with this setup to confidently say there is a pattern here that exists independently of my human error. Now the other relevant bit of info is that I'm shooting primarily solid copper bullets. The ammo that I'm seeing these groups with is Barnes VOR-TX 150g TTSX. I've shot a lot of this, as well as the 130g ammo of the same variety.

My question is this: should I suspect my bedding job is the culprit, or is it more likely to be copper fouling that I need to use a copper solvent on? Until now I've only used standard mineral spirit based cleaners like no.9 (as per the advice of GunBlue490 again, who claims solvents are a bad idea and that the copper only smooths the bore and doesn't require solvent removal).

Thanks for your input. Let me know if I've left out any necessary info.


WW


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Pencil barrels on hunting rifles change shape as they heat up with continued shots. Leave yourself five minutes between shots and your groups will stabilize.

Make that the barrel is free of any wood contact.
Clean the bore with something that removes copper. I start with Butchs then go to Sweets.
Made sure your action screws are at the proper tension.

Could be scope or mounts, but I believe that is an overused excuse.

Then space your shots.

What scope and scope mounting setup are you using?

Barnes can certainly foul barrels quickly. My 25-06 (both) are good for about 25 shots at 3600fps before the groups open up like clockwork, they then need to be cleaned with Sweets copper remover. Your groups look like the rifle wants to shoot, I think it is possible that you may not be in the sweet spot of cartridge overall length that your rifle may like. Sometimes with Barnes jumping them to the lands more will tighten those right up. That was my experience with Barnes 80grn TTSX with my 25-06's. Two touching and one away..........then finding the correct OAL and the groups were almost all touching if not one ragged hole. That can be said for standard cup and core bullets too, the cartridge OAL can be a major factor.

Prezactlty! Hint.

Though I rather enjoy Lying/CLUELESS Brokedick Pieces Of Fhuqking Schit,extolling a stopwatch "cure". Hint. LAUGHING!

1000 words,germane,to said platform and mounts/glass/ring spacing ain't fhuqking "flukes". Hint.



Rifles talk...yet nobody listens. Never been difficult to cypher,who shoots and who don't. Hint.

Bless The Windowlickers for doing their best,with what incredibly fhuqking little they "have" to "work" with.

Hint.

Laughing!.................

I think he’s shooting factory fodder. Playin’ with OAL would be out.

First thing I'd check is all fasteners; action screws, scope base screws, ring bolts, and ring cap screws. After that, I'd do a tracking and return to zero test on the scope. If none of that reveals anything, there's more to look at.

As stated above, scope mounting and or scope are likely culprits.

John

I am using a Vortex Razor HD LH 1.5-8x with Talley low one-piece mounts. I'll double check that everything is nice and tight. I am shooting factory ammo but I like the OAL theory. My friend reloads; maybe we can play around with that in the future.

The frustrating thing is that the rifle does really seem to want to shoot these loads well. I have had a few 1/2" groups at 100 and a whole lot of 2 shots touching at 100, but there is a disconcerting randomness to when it throws the "flyer" shots. I know it may seem like human error but sometimes you just know where you should hit when you pull the trigger because you had a clear, steady sight picture and your trigger pull was smooth, and when that shot ends up 3" away from where you know you should have hit, you just know something is wrong.

The guys that mentioned action, rings and base screws gave you good advice. Start there for sure. I know what you mean about knowing you shot a good group and seeing one 2 1/2 inches away. Your groups looked EXACTLY like mine did during my load testing and before I found the correct OAL for a particular bullet with a particular powder. Don't lose hope, your rifle wants to shoot.

There should be a list of things to check, probably already in one of the Gun Gack books. I will mount the scope on another rifle or use a known scope to re-test. I suspect sometimes when I have done this I corrected an unknown mounting issue when making the swap, especially if I put the original scope back on and the problem is resolved.

If nothing is loose (or overly tight) and there is no barrel contact then it gets more difficult to diagnose. How is the crown on the barrel?

Also try different ammunition just to eliminate another variable. How many rounds have you fired? I have had some barrels start shooting better after 100 or more rounds and cleaning.

I'd try a known good scope before I changed much else other than checking the mounts. 3" is a long way for a flyer from an otherwise sound rifle.

Yeah, its a hell of a long way. If hes using a leupold or vortex, id pull it off throw it away and try a "proven" good rifle scope on it. Id also pull the mounts and rings and inspect them. Degrease everything, apply a little blue loctite to the base screws. Making damn sure the forward most screw isnt too long. I also dont know how the op glass bedded the rifle. Not knowing his abilities, id pull the dial indicator out and check to be sure the receiver isnt being stressed when the action screws are tightened down. You'd be surprised how a stressed receiver will affect groups. Id also be sure the barrel is freefloated all the way to the front face of the receiver. I hate to laugh about the suggestions of waiting for 5 minutes between shots. The featherweight contour really isnt that skinny, and all the Featherweights ive owned shoot sub moa 3 shot, moa 5 shot and sub 1.5 moa 10 shot groups without letting the barrel cool between shots. I have other rifles with skinnier barrels that shoot far better.. unless the barrel has residual stresses or is absolute garbage, it should shoot well without all the mumbo jumbo.

First guess would be bases or mounts.
Possible barrel heat or pressure point. But that is usually vertical stringing in my personal experience.
A knick in the crown is easy to check for. But this would seem to cause even more erratic grouping.

Improper charge weight can cause groups like that. I start .050 of the lands and adjust charge weight until groups tighten up. ( only with Barnes bullets ) As mentioned, seating depth does the same as well.Not uncommon to see this with a Barnes x bullet.

Just a suggestion but I usually start with a bullet that I know is easy to get shooting. The Barnes x is not difficult but not as easy as others. If the rifle won’t shoot a game king or ballistic tip there is something wrong with the rifle. These are easy to get shooting well generally.

After checking all the screws, clean the barrel.


I'd bet you'll be mining copper for days.

Welcome to the Fire. I want to make sure I am correctly interpreting your original post, because it seems like there is such an obvious question, which nobody has asked you, that I fear I may have missed something.
That said, as I read your OP, the rifle now shoots worse than it did before you did the bedding job. It did not shoot GREAT before, but it was not throwing the weird fliers like it is now.
Is this correct?
I think that's important to clearly establish before the respondents can help.

Cheers,
Rex

Thanks for your thoughts guys. I'll look into your suggestions. I don't have another rifle or scope handy, but I'll double check the screws on the bases, rings and action. I think I'll try a copper solvent in the barrel before I think about re-doing the bedding job. I bought some Federal Gold Medal ammo to try out as well. Maybe I'll do the solvent first and then try the Gold Medal ammo. If it still acts funny I will probably try re-bedding it. Oh and I'll check the crown as well.

Rex this is a great question and I believe the answer is yes, but I'm not sure because I accidentally deleted the photos of my pre-bedding range trips. It was a terrible mistake; I thought my google photos account had them backed up already (it showed them in the app), so I deleted them off my phone and then found that they were not actually uploaded and were therefore lost. I think I would remember if I'd had flyers like this before, but then again, I had never tested it as carefully before as I did on the last couple trips to the range that resulted in the photos I linked to.

So are you saying it is shooting the same ammo worse than before you bedded the rifle?