Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Optics how was any of this possible without FFP?!?

Well, on the plus side there is now at least one person on the fire that shares CC's views, so he's got a buddy to sing Kumbaya with. Of course, they also happen to share the elitist "Legends in their own minds" type of attitude, so there's that.

We've gone through this a thousand times, CC. Exaggeration and cynicism aren't going to win you any debates. OF COURSE it's possible to make long shots with SFP scopes. Heck, I did it all the time for many years before well-designed FFP scopes become readily available. When we're discussing pros/cons of the different scope designs, we're talking about advantages and disadvantages, not saying that one absolutely works and the other doesn't. A little bit of logic goes a long way.

I have noticed that some of the "elitists" are the most vocal elitist "haters": on both sides of the board, which adds to the irony of these conversations.

Anyhow CC, I don't think that long range shots themselves have much to do with these FFP vs SFP discussions....it's varying vs fixed reticle sub-tesion for determining range (if a guy looses his rangefinder or its batteries die) or for holding windage which seems to be the major discussion.

If a guy 100% of the time knows the range and never holds for wind, I don't think these discussions would ever take place, other than (IMO) the minor issue of a reticle being too thin to see at low power in a FFP.

the point of this thread for me is actually not to pee on FFP, The point is to say scopes are a compromise, A scope should be chosen how its most likely to be used. The fact is even in a long range hunting scenario you don't say to yourself, the deer is at 400 yards, lets back up to 750 yards, so we can use the precious subtentions LOL. In reality a 3x9 with a duplex reticle will probably get it done 75% of the time. You don't purposely shoot further than you have to. getting all in a tizzy because the sub tensions don't match at low power is missing the forest through the trees. It does match at high power, since you're likely only taking one shot at the animal dialing to max power is what you should do, unless of course you are using a hubble telescope with way too much power. a big game hunting scope should not be more than 14-16x. I hear this "well designed FFP" reticle argument all the time. Most touted here IMO suck on the lowest power. the vaunted 3-12 LRHS, washes out on a curtain in broad daylight of a trade show. but the 4.5-18 version of that scope isn't bad IMO. I guess that would be a better FFP design in my mind. but look what your giving up.

don't choose your scope because of anyone else, chose your scope because its what you want!! I was talking to the head of sales for zeiss sports optics a couple months ago. I said THANK YOU! for not buying into the FFP madness and giving us these awesome SFP v4 scopes! you wanna know what he said? He said yes we need some sort of a public intervention and guideline on this and that its gotten out of hand.



in summary: when would I pick FFP
1) scope very high power, 6-24x or higher
2) if I am likely to be using the scope at medium to high power often
3) if I am only using the scope in full daylight
4) if the scope is higher power and I would often need to dial down from max power because of mirage
5) if I am shooting "movers"
6) if I am in a tactical compettion
7) if I plan to shoot lots of shots at extended ranges,(competition)

when I pick SFP

1) if I mostly carry my gun while moving place to place on the lowest power
2) when I need FOV for a quick shot
3) when I need the reticle to work in low or less than perfect light, without illumination because the freaking battery could be dead!
4) if my scope is less than 16x max power
5) if I am trying to be like john burns when I grow up!

Scenario

You are still hunting through a large patch of dark timber. Bull tag in hand.

You look to a meadow just ahead of you coming out of the timber. Nothing. Nothing. Take another step and there’s a good bull 15 yards from more timber, he’s moving towards the timber slowly. You look at him for a second to make sure he is in fact a good bull.

Your buddy who is [bleep] money tells you the bull is 400 yards away. There’s a little wind. How much wind? You shoot a lot, and you think maybe 4-5 inches of drift. You don’t have more than probably 6 seconds, maybe less, to do anything. There’s conveniently a tree handy for a quick and stable rest.

What could you do? A challenging scenario no matter the equipment.

One of those things could be to watch that bull move into the timber and never see him again. I’m not saying that’s a poor choice. I certainly [bleep] hate to be hurried into quick shots. My brain gets overloaded.

One of those things is to put a 1 Mil dot on him and consider taking a shot. Because you have a 7 Mag and you sighted in 2 inches high at 100 yards and that 1 Mil dot just lined up with the 400 yard gong perfect. Maybe your scope is set to 4x or 6x because that’s what the thing is always set on.

One of those things is you could [bleep] around with your dials and magnification and miss watching the bull walking into the timber.

Maybe you’re quick enough to dial or hold with SFP. Fine with me! I like that dot at 400. And I know that I have no problem shooting an animal at 400 yards with a scope on 6x.

Me, I’m either going to take the shot or watch that bull walk into the timber through the scope.

that is a real world situation!! in fact a likely one. which brings up another subject, knowing the range quickly!! nothing beats RF binoculars. I use swaro EL range. They have directly lead to more animals being shot, including more archery kills as well. My brother in law uses the older leicas. I bet he would tell you the 190" buck wouldn't have been shot without his. The way I would handle that situation is, I normally tape a drop chart from JBM ballsitics onto my stock and or have an etched turret. The EL range gives me the distance, I give the turret a quick adjustment, its not far enough to even mess with wind, boom.

but to get to that point required some preparation, and the right equipment. EL range binoculars. chrono'd load, at minimum a drop chart taped to stock, OR ideally an etched turret and the drop chart for backup. even better is your load calibrated with actual shooting at distances to 1000 yards to verify the data from your smart phone app, I use applied ballistics. the smart phone app, with your data trued to it, thats what allowed me to give a coyote a dirt nap at 991 yards.

I'd twist my turret to 1.7 mils and grab a rest. If he stops or hesitates, he'll die. I could time that twist to 1.7, but quite sure it is less than 2 seconds. I have both sfp and ffp scopes and I'd do the same with each. This stuff doesn't really seem that hard to me.

Ur a drama lama and even responding is most likely a waste of time.

Go drop 30 animals in a day and see how quickly ur ass gets backwards running a sfp scope.

Dial for dope, slide for wind. You start dialing windage and it’ll bight you in the ass real quickly. Especially on fast action, blowing up a mob of goats in a gully and mags get empty real fast. Haven’t met a zero stop windage dial yet. Might switch tune if that happens but not likely.

Been there, done that.

I would think 400 yards on a “long range “ high powered rifle for someone used to hunting out West would not require any dialing but what do I know.....with 6 seconds to execute , I’m just not seeing ranging for distance, “dialing” for elevation, AND placing the a bullet in the boiler room. I can see ranging and placing a bullet though (holding over thus eliminating the dialing step) .

I agree though that is a realistic hunting scenario. That’s probably more than half of scenarios on a mature buck in middle TN.

About 12-15 inches (or more) drop at 400 depending on cartridge. Enough that if you don’t account for it you have a rodeo on your hands.

And somewhere between 350-400 yards is when I think most, even most here, probably have no business shooting. Just wind at that range starts doing funny things.

Certainly more than 1 system that could account for it. I don’t like dialing because it takes my eyes and attention off the animal, and what’s happening around it, like a cow that moves behind him. Doesn’t bother others. Again, fine with me whatever system you use.

What’s Douglas like right now?

Love hate with spring in Wyoming. Damn in can be [bleep], or super nice. Will lull ya a tho, cuz 25knots of wind and 30 is freezing ass cold on the stabbing board if all ya got on is some long johns and coveralls and you can’t get surface pipe in the hole. Wind straight up the v door, shaking like a [bleep] at a wrong roast, hardhat yardsaled somewhere back by the pits.

Every time I’ve been on a rig floor in that neck of the woods the drill pipe stood back sounds like a giant pipe organ.Effin a it gets windy there. One time from the junction on 20 to Douglas I couldn’t get off 3rd gear it was so dam windy.

I’d bugle, usually stops them in their tracks faster than a cow call no matter the time of year....

I made a shot similar to that this year. At 400 yards with a 7 mag in a 10-12mph wind on a bull elk the size of a billboard(ok exaggeration) I’m running the windshield. In my scope I’d Crank up the power and adjust parallax. 200 yard zero puts the load that I entered at 4.5 minutes of drop and 1.5 of wind(sorry I’m still stuck in minutes). MOAR 3rd hash down and bracket the crosshair and first windage line. I’d be more worried about judging the bull than making that shot.

You seem to be the only one in this thread with such definitive claims. I’m starting to see why you don’t appear to have any credibility with most of the members on this forum.

It’s interesting to see that you came to such a strong conclusion about the 3-12 LRHS by testing it “on a curtain in broad daylight of a trade show”.
Im actually using my 3-12 LRHS scopes in the field and building an opinion.

Are you saying you cannot hold over 12” on an elk? By that I mean hold the crosshairs 12” above where you want the bullet to impact?

This is a good point.

Lets say you are using something in the 5-25X or more range and rarely if ever dial below 10X then FFP makes a lot of sense.

Many FFP reticles are optimized for 15-18X on those types of optics and using 25X or more, in real hunting, is somewhat rare (mirage, FOV).

If I had to hunt with an optic that topped out over 20X and it had to be a factory reticle I might pick FFP and give up on the bottom end of the zoom range.

I use optics that top out at 14-18X and I can always use the top end of the power band for long range or precision.

I will often carry on 1/2 max zoom and my hash marks are 2 MOA.

If I am shooting at the bottom of the zoom I won't be holding wind but might very much be holding close range elevation offsets (5 yards is a 60 MOA hold.) and the boldness of the 2FP reticle is required for real speed.

Who said “can’t” anywhere?

I can’t speak for Douglas today but it was damned beautiful in Cheyenne. Last week was 5 and the wind was whipping!

If you are thinking in inches of drop then reticle selection is a moot point.

You said “don’t” and explained a scenario where a shooter not accounting for that much drop (12-15”)would just wound the animal .i agree with that. . Not trying to start an argument. And nobody “holds over” I guess. It’s not cool. Haha . For a fast shot scenario, I’d think to be successful and pull off a shot in 6 seconds that would be most feasible. I was really addressing Cum cowboy as he says in your scenario he’d, range, dial, and shoot a 400 yard shot in 6 seconds. Also, he claims to be a experienced “Western “ hunter.

Why yes it is.

What I would probably do is what I did for the first 40 years of my hunting life. I would take my 7mag topped with a 3-10x Leupold w/regular duplex and 160 partitions, sighted in at 3" high at 100, and aim just below the top of his back. I probably killed near 200 head of big game with this type of setup and it seems to work well. If the wind is blowing too hard for me to be comfortable I won't shoot. All that being said, nowadays I'd feel more confident using the LRHS and dial, hold for wind.